[Feedback] Counter insurgency aircraft.

[blockhaj 3,560]

Hello pilots, tankers and seamen! I would like to start a discussion regarding counter insurgency aircraft in War Thunder.

First off let's specify what i mean by counter insurgency aircraft as my definition here specifically refers to War Thunder. Counter insurgency aircraft (short COIN AC) are slow low powered military aircraft designed to perform anti tank missions using Rockets and ATGM's much like a helicopter.

 

Here is an example aircraft, the Saab MFI-17 Supporter.

It is a twin seat trainer aircraft with a top speed of ca 230 km/h which can be armed with a variety of loads. In this photo it is armed with 2x 75 mm ABEL rocket pods, 2x 145 mm psrak m/49/56 anti tank rockets and 2x Bofors Bantam wireguided ATGM's. As you can see it also lacks fixed armament such as machine guns or autocannons.

 

This is just one of many examples of COIN aircraft throughout history. There exists great examples from pretty much every country in game.

The purpose of this thread is to hear what the War Thunder community thinks about COIN aircraft. Do you want them and if so how do you think they should be implemented? As mentioned previously they will most likely play or act similarly to helicopters as they are very slow and features similar armament. Some examples can even load torpedos and anti-ship missiles so they could have an effect on naval battles as well.

My personal opinion is that they sould be added to the helicopter trees of nations. As mentioned they have a lot in common with helicopter combat and would largely be useless in air battles de to their lacking performance and anti air armament. Besides gameplay adding them to the helicopter trees could potentially also help nations which have a general lack of helicopter-capability.

However i am intersted to hear other peoples opinions. Should COIN aircraft get their own tech trees or should they simply be added to the main air tech trees of nations? 

Here are some more examples of COIN aircraft to inspire the discussion.
USA

OV-10 Bronco

Spoiler

GER

Bü_181 C-3

Spoiler

USSR

Technoavia Rysachok

Spoiler

UK

Britten Norman Defender

Spoiler

JP

Japan doesnt have anything interesting that i can find.
CH

T-CH-1

Spoiler

IT

SIAI-Marchetti SF.260 Warrior

Spoiler

FR

Potez 75

Spoiler

SWE

MFI-9B Militrainer

Spoiler

 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

It should be fun.

But I think they should be in planes trees, just without arrows and requirements to research previous aircraft ranks if you have already researched rank V tanks (just like for helies trees).

This thing is turbofan, but I think it is smth from the same category:

Or they can just be squadron vehicles.

Edited August 7, 2020 by _Condottiero_

[blockhaj 3,560]

20 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

It should be fun.

But I think they should be in planes trees, just without arrows and requirements to research previous aircraft ranks if you have already researched rank V tanks (just like for helies trees).

What's ur plan for spading them? In aerial battles they would be free XP for common aircraft.

20 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

This thing is turbofan, but I think it is smth from the same category.

Engine type doesnt really matter as long as they have poor overall performance. For example the SK60B COIN AC has jet engines but it barely crosses 700 km/h in a straight line with armament mounted.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

2 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

What's ur plan for spading them? In aerial battles they would be free XP for common aircraft.

Engine type doesnt really matter as long as they have poor overall performance. For example the SK60B COIN AC has jet engines but it barely crosses 700 km/h in a straight line with armament mounted.

In ground battles.

But in the perfect world, planes will have different battle ratings and repair costs for air and tank RB.

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

Would like to see a few of these added to the game. I agree that they fit best in the heli tree, likely at BRs no higher than 8.7 since most of the examples provided are from the 50s with obsolete ordnance compared to later helis. They'd be weird in heli EC though, not sure how that would work. 

 

Before doing anything serious though I think Gaijin should add one as a squadron vehicle just to test the waters, see how these types of things play out in game.

[blockhaj 3,560]

21 minutes ago, watch_your_fire said:

Would like to see a few of these added to the game. I agree that they fit best in the heli tree, likely at BRs no higher than 8.7 since most of the examples provided are from the 50s with obsolete ordnance compared to later helis. They'd be weird in heli EC though, not sure how that would work. 

How would they be weird in heli EC?

 

[TeaParty4622 301]

How about T-28?

Edited August 9, 2020 by Neptune42

[TerikG2014 1,389]

Not quite prop Aircraft but the god ol BAC Strikemaster was used extensively as a COIN Aircraft (best thing of all it's got performance about equal to a high tier prop)

the UK also has the Short Tucano

Edited August 7, 2020 by TerikG2014

[Draco_Argentum 1,504]

Its a good idea for the post war aircraft with about the same speed as helicopters. The biggest problem is that Heli EC is absolutely terrible and theres no point adding more Vikhr fodder.

[sigma__zero@psn 4,650]

I am against the idea, at least with the proposed implementation. As a fan of ground attack I think they could potentially be very fun, but there's simply no place for them in the current game. They're not rotorcraft, shoehorning them into the helicopter trees makes zero sense and having fixed wing planes fighting helicopters in helicopter battles such as heli EC would only add to the balancing nightmare the mode is already. BRs? You can't put them at low BRs because of their ordnance loadouts, but placing them at higher tiers would make them useless against other planes. Not everyone plays ground RB and I'm very much against any particular type of vehicle being entirely dependent on a single game mode.

[Fireraid233 4,274]

Im not sure if this would count for Japan tbh it's my first time hearing about these aircraft except for the Bronco.

It can carry torps, bombs and rockets.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Fireraid233

[blockhaj 3,560]

1 hour ago, Fireraid233 said:

Im not sure if this would count for Japan tbh it's my first time hearing about these aircraft except for the Bronco.

It can carry torps, bombs and rockets.

The tracker is a counter insurgency aircraft kinda. It lacks anti tank weapons though to my knowledge. Maybe the japanese tried some type of anti ship missile on it that could be usable?

[TeaParty4622 301]

Wasn't T-28D too COIN Ops plane?

 

[blockhaj 3,560]

13 hours ago, Neptune42 said:

Wasn't T-28D too COIN Ops plane?

snip

Yes they were. The US arguably has the most amount of of coin aircraft period.

[blockhaj 3,560]

Seems the P2V Neptune can carry AS-12's so maybe that can be something for Japan.

[TerikG2014 1,389]

5 hours ago, blockhaj said:

Seems the P2V Neptune can carry AS-12's so maybe that can be something for Japan.

That's an AS-12 Ant Shipping warhead unless it can carry the HEAT one I'm not sure how effective it'll be.

[blockhaj 3,560]

1 minute ago, TerikG2014 said:

That's an AS-12 Ant Shipping warhead unless it can carry the HEAT one I'm not sure how effective it'll be.

The AS-20 has an anti shipping warhead too lol. Its technically a SAP warhead but it has 28 kg of TNT in it so a direct hit should kill any tank really. The AS-20 has 33 kg.

[Draco_Argentum 1,504]

This topic is the first time I've ever heard of the Tracker or Neptune being described as COIN aircraft.

[blockhaj 3,560]

1 hour ago, Draco_Argentum said:

This topic is the first time I've ever heard of the Tracker or Neptune being described as COIN aircraft.

As explained in the OP, its just referring to their role in war thunder. However the Neptue i agree is no coin aircraft.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

On 10/08/2020 at 04:38, blockhaj said:

Seems the P2V Neptune can carry AS-12's so maybe that can be something for Japan.

I'm not sure Japan ever used the AS.12. Do you know if this picture is of a French Neptune?

This reminds me that the Alouette III and Gazelles are missing their AS.12 loadouts 

[blockhaj 3,560]

2 hours ago, Cedjoe said:

I'm not sure Japan ever used the AS.12. Do you know if this picture is of a French Neptune?

This reminds me that the Alouette III and Gazelles are missing their AS.12 loadouts 

The picture depicts a Dutch Neptune. However the US Navy used the AS-12 so its not impossible that the Japanese had them.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

41 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

The picture depicts a Dutch Neptune. However the US Navy used the AS-12 so its not impossible that the Japanese had them.

Are you sure they used the AS.12? Afaik they only used the AS.11 which they renamed AGM-22.

[blockhaj 3,560]

24 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Are you sure they used the AS.12? Afaik they only used the AS.11 which they renamed AGM-22.

I lost my original source but a quick google search gave me this.

[Draco_Argentum 1,504]

23 hours ago, blockhaj said:

As explained in the OP, its just referring to their role in war thunder. However the Neptue i agree is no coin aircraft.

 

Turns out the Tracker is drastically slower than I thought. I guess it is around the performance of a Bronco so it kinda fits in that sense. It still has near twice the bomb load of the Bronco, although perhaps the anti-ground options are lighter than the torpedos/depth charges. Either way its a bit odd to group it in with the helis and light ground attack planes. Maritime patrol aircraft would make more sense to be added alongside submarines if Gaijin ever goes that way.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Here's a list of French aircraft that fall imo in the COIN category (the ones without production numbers are prototypes) :

COIN/attack aircraft :

- Potez 75

Spoiler

 

 

- SE.116/117 Voltigeur

Spoiler

 

 

- Sipa S.1100

Spoiler

- MS.1500 Épervier

Spoiler

- Br.960 Vultur

Spoiler

 

 

- NC.1070/1071

Spoiler

 

 

 

Trainers that were or could be modified for COIN operations :

- MS.472/474/475 Vanneau (501)

Spoiler

 

 

- MS.733 Alcyon (185)

Spoiler

- MS.880/893 Rallye (21)

Spoiler

Armed versions renamed "R235 Guerrier"

- TB-30 Epsilon (150)

Spoiler

- MS.760 Paris (50)

Spoiler

- CM.170 Magister (397)

Spoiler

 

- CM.175 Zéphyr (28)

Spoiler

- EMB-312F Tucano (50)

Spoiler

- Alpha Jet E (176)

Spoiler

- SIPA S-10/11/12/121 (234)

Spoiler

- Cessna L-19E (190)

Spoiler

https://www.alat.fr/aeronefs-avions-avions-en-service-cessna-l-19-presentation.html

- Reims-Cessna FTB337G Super Skymaster/ FTMA Milirole (61)

Spoiler

- T-6 Texan (884)

Spoiler

- T-28 Fennec (146)

Spoiler

 

 

- Fouga 90

Spoiler

 

Modified transport aircraft :

- MD.311 Flamant (40)

Spoiler

 

 

- MD.410 Spirale

Spoiler

- Guardian 2

Spoiler

 

 

 

WW2 planes modified for COIN operations in French service :

- A-26 Invader (196)

Spoiler

 

 

- AD-4 Skyraider (146)

Spoiler

- F4U-7 Corsair (94)

Spoiler

 

 

 

Maritime patrol aircraft (because they are usually underpowered compared to same era counterparts) :

- Br.1050 Alizé (75)

Spoiler

 

 

- P2V Neptune (57)

Spoiler

- Br.1150 Atlantic (28)

Spoiler

 

 

- Atlantique 2 (44)

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Cedjoe