[Feedback] Counter insurgency aircraft.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

22 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

I lost my original source but a quick google search gave me this.

Interesting. I might be wrong but I think this might be just an ad from the US branch of Nord Aviation, which was I think the branch that built AGM-22s in the US. I'm still not convinced the AS.12 entered service with the US, or at least I can't find a clear proof that it did 

[blockhaj 3,560]

Here is another cool one. The French MD 311 Flamant.

It can carry 6x SS.11.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

4 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Here is another cool one. The French MD 311 Flamant.

It can carry 6x SS.11.

It's in the list I posted some minutes ago 

[blockhaj 3,560]

9 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Here's a list of French aircraft that fall imo in the COIN category (the ones without production numbers are prototypes) :

snip

This is all great but a lot of these ac can be added to the main tree without a problem. COIN aicraft are the types of aircraft which performs too bad for the main trees but can still perform great CAS.

1 minute ago, Cedjoe said:

It's in the list I posted some minutes ago 

I looked at some of my old spreadsheet tech trees.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Just now, blockhaj said:

This is all great but a lot of these ac can be added to the main tree without a problem. COIN aicraft are the types of aircraft which performs too bad for the main trees but can still perform great CAS.

The ones I included have imo armament options that are too good for the plane's performance. Most (apart from the jet trainers) don't even reach 500km/h but have large rocket launchers/missiles/ASM.

Do you have specific exemples of planes that don't fit? 

[blockhaj 3,560]

I added a poll.

Just now, Cedjoe said:

The ones I included have imo armament options that are too good for the plane's performance. Most (apart from the jet trainers) don't even reach 500km/h but have large rocket launchers/missiles/ASM.

Do you have specific exemples of planes that don't fit? 

Yes but i dont have time atm to list em.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

2 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

I added a poll.

Yes but i dont have time atm to list em.

Ok I'll try to post pictures of their armament and I'll remove things that end up not fitting 

[blockhaj 3,560]

https://live.warthunder.com/post/921953/en/

[Rapitor 10,702]

Any aircraft used in Algeria can be considered COIN as it is what they did.

AD-4N, F4U-7 and the Alouette II were used for that purpose

[blockhaj 3,560]

1 minute ago, Rapitor said:

Any aircraft used in Algeria can be considered COIN as it is what they did.

AD-4N, F4U-7 and the Alouette II were used for that purpose

As explaining in the OP the thread refers to the stereotypical COIN AC. Aka a trainer esc aircraft with armament strapped on. Basically aircraft which are a separate class from conventional aircraft etc. The AD4, F4U etc are conventional aircraft considering War Thunder.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Here are some other light attack aircraft that might fit :

 

Cessna Lynx :

Spoiler

Matra Type 181 & 361 rocket pods

 

Scottish Aviation Bulldog :

Spoiler

Matra LR F2 rocket pod

 

 

Here are other pictures of already listed planes :

 

SF.260 Warrior :

Spoiler

 

Tucano :

Spoiler

 

I'm not sure but the S.211, MB-326 and MB-339 might be worth adding to this list.

3 hours ago, blockhaj said:

As explaining in the OP the thread refers to the stereotypical COIN AC. Aka a trainer esc aircraft with armament strapped on. Basically aircraft which are a separate class from conventional aircraft etc. The AD4, F4U etc are conventional aircraft considering War Thunder.

Yes hence why I put them in a different category in my list 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cedjoe

[AggressiveRecon 259]

one technicality about this thread,

 

the COIN planes that should have special BRs and treated differently than normal attackers by the matchmaker should be the ones that have advanced weapons or logically lead to more modernized versions of themselves

 

for instance some of the planes mentione dor suggested here could actually just be normal attacker, case in point A-26 invaders used for COIN, they are basically slightly different from ww2 era invaders with more modern bombs and different rockets but do not come with advanced weapons or avionics

 

the bronco for example is, in it's earliest variants very similar, doesn't get fancy electronics and uses "dumb" bombs and rockets, so it's early verison could be treated as a normal attack aicraft, however the difference bewteen the early bronco and the invader is that the bronco then leads to newer versions of itself that can carry highly advanced weapons while the plane itself doesn't change much in term of flight performance, serving mostly as a launch platform, and should therefore be in a seperate tree from normal planes as it is a start for COIN planes

 

the problem is the lines are pretty blurred between what would still count as a normal attacker and what should be treated differently, COIN aircraft by capabilites and intended role as very similar to helicopters, but often trading ATGMs for bombs. This is why the COIN planes should be treated by BRs and matchmaking similar or the same as choppers IMO

 

the biggest issue I see is how to decide when somethign gets added to the COIN/light attack tree and what gets added to the normal tree or at least what gets treated how by BR and matchmaking, generally COIN aicraft would be impossible to balance in air RB

Edited August 11, 2020 by AggressiveRecon

[Rapitor 10,702]

59 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

As explaining in the OP the thread refers to the stereotypical COIN AC. Aka a trainer esc aircraft with armament strapped on. Basically aircraft which are a separate class from conventional aircraft etc. The AD4, F4U etc are conventional aircraft considering War Thunder.

My bad.

I didn't pay attention to such specific instance of COIN when posting.

 

Historically, trailers were used because cheap, available and lower stall speed than jets when it was needed.

 

I don't consider COIN as stereotypical from trainer aircraft, it just happen to be the only prop still available at that time.

 

Just like AD-4, F4U-7 and some T-6 under French flags operated in Algeria as it was the only slow flying aircraft France had available. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

I added pictures to the list I made last page 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

44 minutes ago, AggressiveRecon said:

one technicality about this thread,

 

the COIN planes that should have special BRs and treated differently than normal attackers by the matchmaker should be the ones that have advanced weapons or logically lead to more modernized versions of themselves

 

for instance some of the planes mentione dor suggested here could actually just be normal attacker, case in point A-26 invaders used for COIN, they are basically slightly different from ww2 era invaders with more modern bombs and different rockets but do not come with advanced weapons or avionics

 

the bronco for example is, in it's earliest variants very similar, doesn't get fancy electronics and uses "dumb" bombs and rockets, so it's early verison could be treated as a normal attack aicraft, however the difference bewteen the early bronco and the invader is that the bronco then leads to newer versions of itself that can carry highly advanced weapons while the plane itself doesn't change much in term of flight performance, serving mostly as a launch platform, and should therefore be in a seperate tree from normal planes as it is a start for COIN planes

 

the problem is the lines are pretty blurred between what would still count as a normal attacker and what should be treated differently, COIN aircraft by capabilites and intended role as very similar to helicopters, but often trading ATGMs for bombs. This is why the COIN planes should be treated by BRs and matchmaking similar or the same as choppers IMO

 

the biggest issue I see is how to decide when somethign gets added to the COIN/light attack tree and what gets added to the normal tree or at least what gets treated how by BR and matchmaking, generally COIN aicraft would be impossible to balance in air RB

I agree the line is pretty blurry, that's why I made a list with most french planes I could think of that come close to COIN planes, including the ones that weren't initially intended for it. A good portion of them wouldn't need special BR treatment. I also added some maritime patrol planes that could mount anti ship missiles but would have pretty bad performance in game if they face jets.

[blockhaj 3,560]

10 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

I agree the line is pretty blurry, that's why I made a list with most french planes I could think of that come close to COIN planes, including the ones that weren't initially intended for it. A good portion of them wouldn't need special BR treatment. I also added some maritime patrol planes that could mount anti ship missiles but would have pretty bad performance in game if they face jets.

Were the line is drawn is up to gaijin but generally i think we should draw the line were it makes sense. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

1 minute ago, blockhaj said:

Were the line is drawn is up to gaijin but generally i think we should draw the line were it makes sense. 

Sure, I'm just listing the planes I could find that kinda fit the description but in the end it's up to the devs to chose what would fit the game I guess.

This reminded me of the Sk 60 that was planned, shouldn't be too far away from being added to the game I imagine 

[blockhaj 3,560]

18 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

This reminded me of the Sk 60 that was planned, shouldn't be too far away from being added to the game I imagine 

Well tbh it would be kinda limited on paper and would much better fit as a COIN AC in helicopter battles. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

14 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Well tbh it would be kinda limited on paper and would much better fit as a COIN AC in helicopter battles. 

It could be a solution indeed 

[LancePosting 31]

we definitely do not need more cas. especially if it's any stronger than it is now.

[LONGPLAYERNAMELONGPLAYERNAMELONG 162]

Don't think they're a good idea, they wouldn't exactly have a role anywhere.

 

Balance it by the ordnance it carries, radar SPAA slaps you, balance it by the plane's performance and now you have guided ATGMs in the 5.x-6.x BR. It just feels like if they were to be added they'd be shoehorned in and either blatantly OP or useless.

[sigma__zero@psn 4,650]

7 minutes ago, Imoutoxoxo said:

It just feels like if they were to be added they'd be shoehorned in and either blatantly OP or useless.

 

Precisely. The only way I see they could work would be by giving all aircraft one BR for ground mode and another for air modes, which would have the additional benefit of balancing aircraft that are overtiered in air AB because they perform well in "mixed battles", but that's honestly very unlikely.

[TerikG2014 1,389]

3 hours ago, Cedjoe said:

Cessna Skymaster :

  Hide contents

That's not a skymaster that's Rhodesian Lynx.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

21 minutes ago, TerikG2014 said:

That's not a skymaster that's Rhodesian Lynx.

Yes my bad it's the military version of the Skymaster.

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

+1 would be really cool to see these a chore to balance though