Unfinished Prototypes now officially allowed!

[Nicholas_Concu 2,634]

Recent clarification from Gaijin have now cleared things up on their stance on paper and unfinished prototypes. Unfinished prototypes are being officially allowed to be suggested.
This means that the Italian Ground Forces tree can expand itself with even more unique designs! Here's a few vehicles that had unfinished prototypes that can actually get added now. (there is many more that have been suggested/passed to devs or have yet to be suggested, so keep an eye out on those too!)
Centauro da 155/39 LW

 
FIAT-IVECO AVH 6636

OTO Melara R3 Capraia Reconnaissance Vehicle - TOW Variant

 

[Dr_Pavel 3,961]

1 hour ago, Nicholas_Concu said:

Recent clarification from Gaijin have now cleared things up on their stance on paper and unfinished prototypes. Unfinished prototypes are being officially allowed to be suggested.
This means that the Italian Ground Forces tree can expand itself with even more unique designs! Here's a few vehicles that had unfinished prototypes that can actually get added now. (there is many more that have been suggested/passed to devs or have yet to be suggested, so keep an eye out on those too!)
Centauro da 155/39 LW

 
FIAT-IVECO AVH 6636

OTO Melara R3 Capraia Reconnaissance Vehicle - TOW Variant

 

 

Source on the accepting unfinished prototypes?

[Nicholas_Concu 2,634]

24 minutes ago, Dr_Pavel said:

 

Source on the accepting unfinished prototypes?

CokeSpray

Edited September 13, 2020 by Nicholas_Concu

[SasquatchFox360 1,006]

13 minutes ago, Nicholas_Concu said:

CokeSpray

If this is true then here comes more balance issue's

[Dr_Pavel 3,961]

21 minutes ago, Nicholas_Concu said:

CokeSpray

 

Oh right I found his post. I guess the P.43 is still ruled out though, since it only existed as a wooden scaled mockup afaik. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Dr_Pavel

[Nicholas_Concu 2,634]

7 minutes ago, Dr_Pavel said:

 

Which is?

 

[Dr_Pavel 3,961]

Just now, Nicholas_Concu said:

 

 

Yeah sorry I edited my previous post. 

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

9 minutes ago, Dr_Pavel said:

 

Which is?

 

CokeSpray is a Senior Suggestion Moderator.

 

3 hours ago, CokeSpray said:

Differentiating "Paper"/Fictional Vehicles from (unfinished) Prototypes

 

 

Sometimes it's easy to mistake a prototype vehicle for a paper one, while at other times making that distinction becomes difficult due to, for example, parts of the design existing while the full vehicle itself was never built. As these cases often result in a vehicle's classification being subject to individual interpretation, we've come up with a few simple guidelines to help users make this distinction easier and faster. Please refer to these guidelines when considering making a suggestion on a more obscure vehicle.

 

Reminder: Paper/Fictional vehicles will NOT be accepted as valid suggestions and as such will NOT be approved for discussion.

 

 

What constitutes a paper/fictional vehicle:

• Vehicle only existed in blueprint/sketch drawing form
• No major individual, vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) of the vehicle were built
• Vehicle is a completely made up, unofficial design created by an individual

The vehicle you plan on suggesting meets the criteria above? In that case, it's unfortunately a paper/fictional vehicle and as such won't be accepted as a valid suggestion.

 

What constitutes an (unfinished) prototype:

• Vehicle was (partially) constructed
• Vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) were built

Does the vehicle you intend to suggest meet the criteria above? Fantastic! In that case, you have a more obscure vehicle which at least in some capacity existed in the real world and is therefore a valid vehicle to be suggested.

 

 

Additional Notes

 

The main distinguishing feature between paper and non-paper vehicles is whether the vehicle in question itself or specific parts of it were already constructed at one point. For example, the hull of the E-100 was partially constructed and would thus be a valid suggestion, whereas the Ta 183 only existed as a wind tunnel scale model, thus not being a valid suggestion.

 

Do note that these vehicles were often planned with purpose-built equipment, such as powerplants, but during their performance projections may have utilized existing equipment or were speculated to use commonly available equipment upon completion. This will not count as "partially constructed" unless historical sources state that these equipment pieces are in fact intended as standard for the vehicle.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Miki_Hoshii

[leroyonly 4,311]

I would like to clarify something, we always already took unfinished vehicles for suggestions as long part of it was atleast constructed but it was more an unwritten rule rather then anything that was clear and out in the open. To make it easier for everyone that makes suggestions we really wanted to clear it all up and write it down in as clear as a way possible we just ended up with this rule addition & explaination.

 

To add some additional examples, we would take a well made suggestion for the Super Yamato/Design A-150 battleship as the 51cm guns were purpose made for her. But a suggestion for the Haunebu wouldn't be accepted for hopefully obvious reason. 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

9 minutes ago, leroyonly said:

I would like to clarify something, we always already took unfinished vehicles for suggestions as long part of it was atleast constructed but it was more an unwritten rule rather then anything that was clear and out in the open. To make it easier for everyone that makes suggestions we really wanted to clear it all up and write it down in as clear as a way possible we just ended up with this rule addition & explaination.

 

To add some additional examples, we would take a well made suggestion for the Super Yamato/Design A-150 battleship as the 51cm guns were purpose made for her. But a suggestion for the Haunebu wouldn't be accepted for hopefully obvious reason. 

But what is the chance that such vehicles eventually will be introduced into the game?

[leroyonly 4,311]

2 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

But what is the chance that such vehicles eventually will be introduced into the game?

That i can't tell you because i simple don't know. However with the recent addition of the Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro-class Destroyer (which if going by memory the vessel that got the furthest in construction for that class was about 20% completed) for the Italian Navy tree, it's safe to say that if needed for some purpose they are already being added.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

1 hour ago, leroyonly said:

That i can't tell you because i simple don't know. However with the recent addition of the Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro-class Destroyer (which if going by memory the vessel that got the furthest in construction for that class was about 20% completed) for the Italian Navy tree, it's safe to say that if needed for some purpose they are already being added.

      I remember devs stated in some QnA that ships are a different story compared to aircraft or ground vehicles as they usually don't change a lot during the construction (are built according to schemes) and don't face some serious problems during tests which were not known before unlike planes for example. 

    For the Italian tree it would be perfect if they add not fully-built vehicles, but for ground and air, like P40 prototypes (only cannons were mock-up) or even P43 (full scale mock-up) or at least built but not flown stuff, such as Re.2006, which if I'm not mistaken has been marked as highly unlikely by @Smin1080p. 

   Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro-class destroyer is a nice addition, but the tree can be easily without it as there are other fully-built destroyers and explorers for that br, including some interesting postwar ships. 

   IMO the main thing devs should consider about not-fully built stuff is the reason why it remained incomplete, if it was the end of the war, bombing raids or the vehicle / vessel was just impossible to build due to its peculiarities.

Edited September 14, 2020 by _Condottiero_

[Rieskaruisku 506]

 This is kinda of a monkey paw if speaking metaphorically.

A Big "YAY" underdog nations like Italy and Japan, but a really "OH NAY, DON'T YOU DEAR TO OPEN THAT CAN OF WORMS AND PANDORA'S BOX" for nations like Russia.

 

 Sure it would be nice to storm around with P.43, 44m TAS and O-I, but that wouldn't remove the fact that we will run into some mechanical eldritch horror straight out of some Russian engineer's tank workshop of wet dreams.

[BlueBeta 7,558]

Right now i'm asking you to calm down with too strange additions that we can't even known if they could work because neither the factory can know it.

This opens a way for some vehicle but not for all.

Ex: the Sahariano or the AB 47/32 are one of these because the well known gun.

So my suggestion is to think twice before spamming with these kind of tanks/planes/ships always giving the priority to the really finished ones and leaving out the ambiguous ones.

Thanks for the collaboration i think that people are smart enough to evaluate and understand this.

[Cpl_Stalinium 454]

6 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

giving the priority to the really finished ones and leaving out the ambiguous ones.

Problem is... Gaijin also never adds the finished ones.

[Fireraid233 4,274]

16 hours ago, leroyonly said:

I would like to clarify something, we always already took unfinished vehicles for suggestions as long part of it was atleast constructed but it was more an unwritten rule rather then anything that was clear and out in the open. To make it easier for everyone that makes suggestions we really wanted to clear it all up and write it down in as clear as a way possible we just ended up with this rule addition & explaination.

 

To add some additional examples, we would take a well made suggestion for the Super Yamato/Design A-150 battleship as the 51cm guns were purpose made for her. But a suggestion for the Haunebu wouldn't be accepted for hopefully obvious reason. 

Isn't the A-150 pure paper as in very little details on it? Also the gun i don't think were built right?

[Vakr 16]

16 hours ago, leroyonly said:

I would like to clarify something, we always already took unfinished vehicles for suggestions as long part of it was atleast constructed but it was more an unwritten rule rather then anything that was clear and out in the open. To make it easier for everyone that makes suggestions we really wanted to clear it all up and write it down in as clear as a way possible we just ended up with this rule addition & explaination.

 

To add some additional examples, we would take a well made suggestion for the Super Yamato/Design A-150 battleship as the 51cm guns were purpose made for her. But a suggestion for the Haunebu wouldn't be accepted for hopefully obvious reason. 

I would like to point out that the example Ta 183; weren't at least two different powerplants, that the design was to make use of either, actually constructed?

I mean there's some confusion with the criteria when you have powerplants used by other planes also planned for yet to be produced designs or to be planned to power multiple designs.

[leroyonly 4,311]

6 hours ago, Fireraid233 said:

Isn't the A-150 pure paper as in very little details on it? Also the gun i don't think were built right?

Going by memory 1-2 51cm guns were made in total, hence why i used it as example. Ofcourse just a "Plz gib A-150, it had 2 guns made." thread wouldn't be taken a suggestion as this clarification on the subject of "Paper" vehicles doesnt invalidate any of the other rules present. 

 

6 hours ago, Vakr said:

I would like to point out that the example Ta 183; weren't at least two different powerplants, that the design was to make use of either, actually constructed?

I mean there's some confusion with the criteria when you have powerplants used by other planes also planned for yet to be produced designs or to be planned to power multiple designs.

For this reason the following part was added into the rules,

Quote

What constitutes a paper/fictional vehicle:

• No major individual, vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) of the vehicle were built

to boil it down a bit for the Ta 183, the Heinkel HeS 011 wasn't purposefully meant for that design but was picked up by the Ta 183 engineers as a possible option as it was already around/in development due to a different project. The same is the case for the Jumo and BMW engines, due to these factors the rule i quoted goes into effect as all these engines weren't specifically made/designed for this vehicle.

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

Just to be crystal clear in case it was not already. These changes reflect the passing of suggestions, not the implementation of vehicles themselves. 

 

That decision, lies ultimately with the developers. The change has been made to at least allow the proposals of such vehicles and give considerations to some vehicles otherwise not. 

[WolfFang2003 160]

6 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

Just to be crystal clear in case it was not already. These changes reflect the passing of suggestions, not the implementation of vehicles themselves. 

 

That decision, lies ultimately with the developers. The change has been made to at least allow the proposals of such vehicles and give considerations to some vehicles otherwise not. 

So a go on the 7.5cm kwk 44/2 for panther F?

[arpitmkn 2,743]

@Smin1080p @leroyonly @BlueBeta

how we should behave in regard to vehicles badly needed by Italy in the tank department like the:

-P.40 75/18

-P.40 75/32

(these two would help to fill out the blank space between the M15/42 and the P.40, these 2 are working prototypes, but with few information about it)

-P.30/43

-P.43 BIS

-P.35/43

(these 3 instead would help to fill out the post P.40, but these are mainly wooden moch ups, but their guns and engine are both with available informations)

-AVH6646

-Centauro 155

(these 2 vehicles have turret moch ups for the light tank and the tank destroyer line)

-Draco

-M113 2x20mm

(the Draco had a moch up turret and the M113 had a working turret but there are few pictures about it, these two would be perfect for the SPAAG line)

lastly, OF-24 Tifone (this one had only the chassis completed, while the turret would have been taken from the FV101)

 

 

 

 

 

on a separated note @BlueBeta, a few days ago I was looking for some info about the P.44 Pantera (that can be found on World of Tanks) but is it a complete work of fiction or has something to it? 

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

On 14/09/2020 at 00:30, leroyonly said:

I would like to clarify something, we always already took unfinished vehicles for suggestions as long part of it was atleast constructed but it was more an unwritten rule rather then anything that was clear and out in the open. To make it easier for everyone that makes suggestions we really wanted to clear it all up and write it down in as clear as a way possible we just ended up with this rule addition & explaination.

 

To add some additional examples, we would take a well made suggestion for the Super Yamato/Design A-150 battleship as the 51cm guns were purpose made for her. But a suggestion for the Haunebu wouldn't be accepted for hopefully obvious reason. 

I am most intrigued by whether you guys would accept the Montana-class as a suggestion. She had her builders' plans ready, but was never laid down. Procurement for her parts were allocated, but their construction quickly was frozen.

It is just funny to think about this way, that the H-39 would be a more plausible candidate, while Montana would be out of luck. I guess peer-pressure can change anything, but still.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Magiaconatus

[Nicholas_Concu 2,634]

37 minutes ago, arpitmkn said:

-M113 2x20mm

the M113 had a working turret but there are few pictures about it, these two would be perfect for the SPAAG line)

 

on a separated note @BlueBeta, a few days ago I was looking for some info about the P.44 Pantera (that can be found on World of Tanks) but is it a complete work of fiction or has something to it? 

The M113 2x20mm's shouldn't be there with the rest of the list you made tbh, as you say yourself it was a working vehicle, the real issue is that there's not much info, but i agree with adding it too.

Also just so you know the P.44 Pantera was never made, just a lot of plans for the Italian army to get access to it being licence built. It even got to the point where Germany said they'd help produce some parts for if needed. However due to the allied landings on Sicily, the project had to be delayed and eventually it never got to see the light of day. The only way i see Italy getting any Panthers is if there's proof of perhaps a Divisione M having access to it, or perhaps some Italian tankers capturing one when fighting the Germans. Although as i said it would need to be verified to see if it happened, which probs didnt.

[PlumleyBT 2,980]

28 minutes ago, Nicholas_Concu said:

Also just so you know the P.44 Pantera was never made, just a lot of plans for the Italian army to get access to it being licence built. It even got to the point where Germany said they'd help produce some parts for if needed. However due to the allied landings on Sicily, the project had to be delayed and eventually it never got to see the light of day. The only way i see Italy getting any Panthers is if there's proof of perhaps a Divisione M having access to it, or perhaps some Italian tankers capturing one when fighting the Germans. Although as i said it would need to be verified to see if it happened, which probs didnt.

First of all, im against any italian panther, unless proven the existence of captured/used one.

But i would remind you the japanese tiger, never shipped to the lands of rising sun.

[Gunship 508]

I rather not have paper battleships like the WOWS line of Russian Battleships in the game. I'm sure the Russian forum will disagree strongly, so I have no high hopes here.