french spg AMX Mk 61 105 mm Self-Propelled Howitzer (AMX-105)

[CaID 8,996]

 

 

i would like to suggest a quit impressive lightweight SPG, the AMX automoteur Mk 61 de 105 mm because the french need to have a tank with the name as long as the german's

 

the AMX Mk.61 (to be short) was a development of 1949 by the french army. during the 50s, the french army went into a complet rearming program that had for purpose to protect the nation and get back into the weapon race and not become one more costumer of foreign weapons. the lesson of WW2 teached france the importance to have a self propelled gun protected on 360 degree. they needed something better than the M7 priest, M36 Jackson an certainly not a artillery tracktor converted into a SPG with a gun on portee. the new SPG needed to be carrying a heavy firepower and have a great mobility, the newly designed AMX-13 was a perfect base for this new SPG. building up a new vehicles using an existing base had serial advantage for the supply and maintenace, as the both vehicles would have many part in command, and those part are usually those that is likely to be often change, after all, the cabin seldom need to be replaced.

the new gun was to be the Obusier de 105 modèle 1950 wich was the first 105mm gun built after the WW2 in the western side. the gun was initially designed in 1946 by the firm DEFA to built a new towed gun but the gun was been adapted into the AMX-13 chassis to make it a SPG while remaining almost the same. it have a hydro-pneumatic recoil, relative low velocity but very long range. the french MK.61 used the caliber 23 gun while the export version for the dutch army was having the caliber 30 who increase both range and velocity. on the MK.61 the gun have a transverse of 20° on both right and left side and an elevation of -4° to +66°. it was mostly using HE round who penetration should get from 25 to 30 mm in blast radius. the mk.61 standardly carry a few HEAT shell in case of encounter with enemy tanks. the amounts of HEAT shell had change during the many years of services but usually it was something around 4-5 shells only while there was around 50 HE shells for a total of 56 shells carried. but we do not care for the game as everyone would just fill the ammo rack with HEAT shells as soon they have them, the HEAT shells had a penetration of nothing less than 350mm @0° of steel at any distance or 105 mm at @65° (Now verified!!!) this allow a good penetration of any Russian early coldwar tanks including the Heavy one.

 

the MK.61 share a great mobility with the AMX-13. the engine and suspension remained the same and the weight of the MK.61, just a bit above the AMX-13 do not do much on the mobility of the MK.61. the SPG could easily maneuver around the battle feild and be use to flank or ambush the enemy. in-game, the MK.61 would certainly do best to strick the enemy while keeping low profile, the 105mm gun shall easily deal with the enemy and sometime in a single shot, but the Armour is relatively thin and would not stand any gun shot without been heavily damage. the great mobility would allow a good reaction speed in case of immediate danger.

 

 

France had used 429 of those tank along with the towed gun as mobile artillery from 1958. it was replaced by the AMX-30 AuF1 in 1977 who had a much bigger gun (155mm). serial other country used the AMX-13 Mk.61 105mm SPG; 92 used by Netherland (caliber 30 gun) other by maroc, indonesia and israel. but the main user was France.

 

a completely new variant, the Mk.62 was built to be exported to Switzerland which about the same performance but with a fully rotative turret. this will not be suggested in this suggestion.

 

AMMUNITION

3x HE rounds and 1x HEAT rounds

Spoiler

Spoiler

OE Mle 53

HE shells

velocity = 568 m/s

range = 14,500 m

weight = 16 kg

 

this shell is a classical HE shell, but after entering into service, serial problem showed up. the irregular velocity of the shell was pretty obvious in the long fire and make the accuracy and dispersion quit bad. plus the American license-built PDM51A5 Fuse was often malfunctioning. those problems was mostly solved when the "R" type of the shells was entering into service in 1960.

 

OE mle 53 R

HE shells

velocity = 568 m/s

range = 14,500 m

weight = 16 kg

 

it was the improved shell used for the 105mm after 1960. the problem of irregular velocity was mostly solve wich improved the accuracy in the long-range and the new french built PDM557 fuse with a 30m safety stop the shells from exposing at less than 30m after shooting (even on impact).

 

Obus a culot creux ABS

HE shells

velocity = ?

range = 15,000

weight = 13 kg

 

built in the end of the 50s by ABS. it was used by Belgium, adopted by france but never used by the french army. this shells was designed to be used on longer range with the caliber 30 gun in hope to find export. the Mk.61 with the caliber 30 was indeed exported to Netherland but the Shells was not fallowing it there, the Belgian used it on the american M108

 

OCC-105-F1

Heat shells

velocity = 700 m/sec

range = 2.4 km

weight = 11 kg

penetration = 360mm of penetration at any range in 0° angle or 150mm at 60°

 

 

 

there is a possibility that the M67 HEAT rounds was used on this gun as well, the cartridge was compatible and france had the M67 in service just before the Mk.61 was produced. the M67 could had been used on the Mk.61 in his early service but this is only a theory.

 

 

 

Specifications
Mass	16,500 kg (36,400 lb)
Length	6.4 m (21 ft)
Barrel length	2.4 m (8 ft) L/23[2] or 3.1 m (10 ft) L/30 (with muzzle brake)[3]
Width	2.6 m (8 ft 6 in)
Height	2.7 m (8 ft 10 in)[2]
Crew	5
Shell	Semi-fixed 105x372 mm R[4]
Shell weight	15 kg (33 lb)
Caliber	105 mm (4.1 in) 56 shells carried
Recoil	Hydro-pneumatic
Elevation	-4° to +66°
Traverse	20° R/L[2]
Rate of fire	6 rpm
Muzzle velocity	580 m/s (1,900 ft/s) HE 700 m/s HEAT
Maximum firing range	14.5 km (9 mi)[2]
Armor
Secondary armament	7.5 or 7.62 or 12.7 mm MG on the commander copula DO NOT FORGET IT!
Engine	One SOFAM 8Gxb 8-cylinder water-cooled petrol engine 250 hp (190 kW)
Power/weight	15 hp/tonne
Suspension	Torsion bar
Operational range	349 km (217 mi)
Maximum speed	60 km/h (37 mph)

 

source

Satory VI (1977)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_61_105_mm_Self-Propelled_Howitzer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obusier_de_105_modèle_1950

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/France/AMX-13.php

 https://www.irsem.fr/data/files/irsem/documents/document/file/1641/Ouvrage_TAUZIN_Tome_9_Armenent_gros_calibre.pdf

https://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/France/vehicule_artillerie/Mk_61/Mk_61_France_description.htm

https://www.militaryperiscope.com/weapons/artilleryguns/self-propelled-gunshowitzers/105-mm-amx-mk-61-self-propelled-howitzer

https://weaponsystems.net/system/919-AMX-105

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=417

Edited October 19, 2020 by CaID

[ItssLuBu 1,802]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[FrizBeee 229]

+1 france needs derp gun

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

as long as the HEAT isn't limited to 5 shells

[CaID 8,996]

2 hours ago, nxdefiant001 said:

as long as the HEAT isn't limited to 5 shells

up to 56 shells carried. this site say they usually carry 6 HEAT but other advance 4 or 5, the other are HE shells. i believe the standard amounst of HEAT shells carry can change with the time or units.

 

just modified the topic a bit as i realize i didn't mention how many shells it could carried.

Edited September 14, 2020 by CaID

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

Spoiler

Pic from ComHart Tome 9 L'Armement Gros Calibre, page 180.

 https://www.irsem.fr/data/files/irsem/documents/document/file/1641/Ouvrage_TAUZIN_Tome_9_Armenent_gros_calibre.pdf

Differences  : 54 shells, 37° traverse, crew is 6. (568m/s is for the HE shell not HEAT)

Edited September 14, 2020 by nxdefiant001

[CaID 8,996]

21 minutes ago, nxdefiant001 said:

  Hide contents

Pic from ComHart Tome 9 L'Armement Gros Calibre, page 180.

 https://www.irsem.fr/data/files/irsem/documents/document/file/1641/Ouvrage_TAUZIN_Tome_9_Armenent_gros_calibre.pdf

Differences  : 54 shells, 37° traverse, crew is 6. (568m/s is for the HE shell not HEAT)

for the crew, it seem to the definitively 5. as the parrade show well the 4 crew men in the "turret". there is also a driver that is hard to see on this photo.

it normal in those parade to show all the crew. and i definitively see the commander in the right side of the turret, the loaders and gunner on the rear and the tank on the very left show the driver under the gun.

 

 

on this other picture, we can see the Mk 61 in long range artillery training. i am not a great investigator but i have the feeling the men at the right is the commander doing a briefing to his crew. it allow to see there is not much space there for a 5th crew member in the cabin. i could easily see the commander under the commander copula, the gunner on the left of the gun where is the gun sight, and the two loader behind the gun. a 3rd man behind the gun would probably not fit safely and allow the crew to work.

 

[Zombificus 793]

This would be very nice. Also, I see this HEAT penetrates 105mm of steel at 65 degrees. T-54 (1949)’s UFP is 100mm at 61 degrees, which means it’s both thinner and less angled than the max this 105mm can pierce. This gun should be able to go right through that frontal slope, which would be a nice change of pace from the usual turret shots. 

[Milocat 4,855]

Nice find, +1 from me.

[CaID 8,996]

3 hours ago, Zombificus said:

This would be very nice. Also, I see this HEAT penetrates 105mm of steel at 65 degrees. T-54 (1949)’s UFP is 100mm at 61 degrees, which means it’s both thinner and less angled than the max this 105mm can pierce. This gun should be able to go right through that frontal slope, which would be a nice change of pace from the usual turret shots. 

i dig up a bit about the HEAT shell. i found nearly nothing. so far i got 2 HE shell and a third HE used by the belgian on the M108 SPH. i assume the 105 mle 50 and the M101 gun used on the M108 have the same shells and so i believe the HEAT could be the M62 105mm used by USA. it have a penetration of 180mm which is not bad but not close to the 350mm stated on wikipedia.

[FouManchou 2,463]

16 hours ago, Zombificus said:

This would be very nice. Also, I see this HEAT penetrates 105mm of steel at 65 degrees. T-54 (1949)’s UFP is 100mm at 61 degrees, which means it’s both thinner and less angled than the max this 105mm can pierce. This gun should be able to go right through that frontal slope, which would be a nice change of pace from the usual turret shots. 

This is irrelevant since Gaijin doesn't research the historical penetration values at angles for HEAT shells (or any shells really, now that they have their magical formula). Pen at 60° is always pen at 0° divided by 2. Pen at 30° is max pen multiplied by 0.88.

360mm of flat pen is pretty much what is achieved by AMX-10RC's 105mm, while 105mm HEATFS from L7's achieves 11% higher penetration. Since we're talking about a post-war western HEAT shell, I don't think that penetration value is so wild (although it does seem probably a bit excessive).

[CaID 8,996]

On 15/09/2020 at 09:29, FouManchou said:

This is irrelevant since Gaijin doesn't research the historical penetration values at angles for HEAT shells (or any shells really, now that they have their magical formula). Pen at 60° is always pen at 0° divided by 2. Pen at 30° is max pen multiplied by 0.88.

360mm of flat pen is pretty much what is achieved by AMX-10RC's 105mm, while 105mm HEATFS from L7's achieves 11% higher penetration. Since we're talking about a post-war western HEAT shell, I don't think that penetration value is so wild (although it does seem probably a bit excessive).

it's true the occ 105 F1 had a technology that is way more advance than those used during the WW2. the HEATFS is nothing like the HEAT. but i need actual source. the AMX 105 AU-1 mk.61 was in service a decade before the AMX-30 and long before the AMX-10RC. it may use old tech shells just like it could have his own shells. so source needed there.

[Xenecrite 899]

https://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/automoteurs?task=view&id=681

Spoiler

Here is the real machine gun which equips the turret

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arme_automatique_modèle_1952

Edited September 20, 2020 by Xenecrite

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Gladly see this in the French tree

[CaID 8,996]

got actual source for the HEAT rounds that seem reliable

 

so it's the OCC-105-F1

360mm of penetration at 0

150mm of penetration at 60

 

this allow a BR of 6.7 to 7.3, mostly because it have next to no armor and is fairly high profile. the shell is good but the velocity is not so good. this make the Mk.61 a rank 4-5 vehicles

 

so we have 3 HE rounds and 1 HEAT round, in theory M67 HEAT round could had been used on this gun as well, with 130mm of Penetration. in pratique, the M67 was in use in France a bit before the Mk.61 entered in service, there is still a chance they used the old M67 in this tanks during the early service but this is only a theory.

Edited October 11, 2020 by CaID

[FouManchou 2,463]

23 hours ago, CaID said:

got actual source for the HEAT rounds that seem reliable

 

so it's the OCC-105-F1

360mm of penetration at 0

150mm of penetration at 60

 

this allow a BR of 6.7 to 7.3, mostly because it have next to no armor and is fairly high profile. the shell is good but the velocity is not so good. this make the Mk.61 a rank 4-5 vehicles

 

so we have 3 HE rounds and 1 HEAT round, in theory M67 HEAT round could had been used on this gun as well, with 130mm of Penetration. in pratique, the M67 was in use in France a bit before the Mk.61 entered in service, there is still a chance they used the old M67 in this tanks during the early service but this is only a theory.

Considering the IKV-103 is 5.3 with a much smaller silhouette, better mobility and a better performing round (although with lower velocity)... I think it's fair to expect it below 6.0


Also, considering the pen of 50's Heatfs (such as on the 76mm of LeKpz M41 and T-92 or 90mm on M46/47), I really don't think the penetration is overstated. Then again, Gaijin could chose to be conservative and pich 60° pen as a baseline (giving 300mm at 0°), but that wouldn't make much sense.

[CaID 8,996]

33 minutes ago, FouManchou said:

Considering the IKV-103 is 5.3 with a much smaller silhouette, better mobility and a better performing round (although with lower velocity)... I think it's fair to expect it below 6.0


Also, considering the pen of 50's Heatfs (such as on the 76mm of LeKpz M41 and T-92 or 90mm on M46/47), I really don't think the penetration is overstated. Then again, Gaijin could chose to be conservative and pich 60° pen as a baseline (giving 300mm at 0°), but that wouldn't make much sense.

the swedish shells are way too OP, the Strv m/31 never used the APDS of 1949 as all the 3 tanks was been converted into static defense in early WW2 in case of German invasion, they incorporated them in the Skane line somewhere in the early 40s. no wonder there was a guy doing 18 kill in a single battle using the Infanterikanonvagn 91. and the Stormpjas fm/43-44 totally can be used in top rank without lacking of firepower. it's like if they wanted to make the Swedish interesting by making them undertiered.

 

i believe the IKV-103 BR is likely to be review to a bit higher. but keep in mind, the IKV-103 is not so good mobility and the velocity of his shells is much lower. the AMX mk.61 would be much more effective in decent combat distance than the IKV-103. 530 m/sec for the IKV and 700 M/sec for the AMX, i do not think the swedish would make a comparable combat effectiveness in battle, it would had to aim very high and get a much lower accuracy, moving target at more than 4-500m is getting challenging while with a 700 m/sec the gun you can aim much better than the early Sherman. it allow a better effectiveness to a good range and at 1.5 km, you still have the shells falling in you gunner's sight. of course at the range of his BR, the average velocity can get to somewhere around 900, but with 700 m/sec, the OCC-105-F1 is still very good. good enough to keep a safe distance without been lacking of accuracy. that is not really the case of the IKV-103

 

in any case, Gaijin is likely to believe to know better than actual test and say the OCC-105-F1 was having 400mm of penetration like the one on the AMX-30. and in comparison, the AMX Mk.61 was having a much traverse than the IKV-103 and much better firepower than the IKV-91, that is also element to take in consideration

Edited October 12, 2020 by CaID

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Here's a page from Jane's Armour and Artillery 1985-1986 :

https://archive.org/details/janesarmourartil0006unse

[Kasukaru 2,164]

What does it say for the gun depression? I can't read it. -4° ?

[Cedjoe 5,482]

13 minutes ago, Kasukaru said:

What does it say for the gun depression? I can't read it. -4° ?

Yes, -4°

[CaID 8,996]

3 hours ago, Kasukaru said:

What does it say for the gun depression? I can't read it. -4° ?

I believe it was also the depression that is indicated about everywhere, including my first version of the topic. Its not so great its true but its should be enought to so something. And the round velocity would give a drop that will partially compensate the russian standard depression.

 

After all,his first role is self propelled Howitzer, direct fire is not his usual use but they had give them AT capacity just in case. 4-5 Heat round for 50 HE rounds is just enough to defend yourself and retreat. But in game the player will decide what type of rounds and how many of them they sill take in battle. I am sure they will mostly carry HEAT one if not only them. Its their call, no limitation if exept the max load of 56 rounds

Edited October 19, 2020 by CaID

[Matt_82 1,096]

I like it. 

[hienapunk 1,065]

Gib all amx13's.

[OddPhenomena 1,015]

I thought it might be worth posting the original prototype of this vehicle just to show the changes made to the production version. This picture was taken at Bourges during firing tests on 28 July 1950.

 

 

Regardless, I would really like to see this vehicle in game, with the HEAT round and the HE shell, it could be an excellent addition to the tree.

 

Here's some additional photos of the production version too.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by OddPhenomena

[CaID 8,996]

24 minutes ago, OddPhenomena said:

I thought it might be worth posting the original prototype of this vehicle just to show the changes made to the production version. This picture was taken at Bourges during firing tests on 28 July 1950.

 

 

Regardless, I would really like to see this vehicle in game, with the HEAT round and the HE shell, it could be an excellent addition to the tree.

 

Here's some additional photos of the production version too.

 

Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

those are actually very nice picture, i really love the last one as it remind us how small was the tank