Where is the Skill in Clubbing Seals?

[anyuser 5,136]

8 hours ago, sardinha08@psn said:

Got to love these "pros" talking about skill on flying different non FOTM planes and then you check what they fly the most and it's a Bf109 F-4.   

You might want to check the difference of matches between all my most flown planes and yours.

How many planes I have flown in general, what planes I have flown and how many planes I have upgraded with good success.

 

I'm in this game since 2013 and plane choices were "limited" back then.

That limited, that between 109E3, 109F4/F4trop and 109G2trop was nothing to find. Even better, the G2 was meeting the F-86A on a regular base and the F4 was able to meet it  when the MM opend up (happend regulary with 20k or less players - so much about going down player numbers).

Because the Saber was that bad compared to the Mig or something like that (well, US pilots were), that it deserved such a low tier back then.

E3 and F4, like Spitfire MK2b, A6M2 and some other planes were something you had to use for a long time and against way higher stuff, because there was simply nothing to fill up the lineup.

I would call it even worse then the chinese tree these days, when you want to build a Linup with the Tu-2 as highest BR plane.

 

But even today, build a german (now) 4.0 (or back then 3.7) lineup. Your choices will be limited. Even more if you want to unlock some of the SP-missions ("win X times with plane Y").

Still have to do that for some planes. Not anymore for the 109F4 though.

 

9 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

This would require the 109 to play like a fool even then the zero's cannons will fail it and you'll most likely crit the 109 with machine gun fire stealth belts being the best choice kinda ridiculous that you have to rely on the machine guns to finish off a target

I said you can follow him. We both came from the same energy state and he was flying realy well before.

It was a situation where nobody of the 2 is able to pull any attack. The distance is not big enough for the 109 to get its gun on the Zero and if the 109 pulls up more the Zero will get a clean shoot.

If the Zero pulls up first, the 109 can evade long enough to be able to line up though.

Its like the downward death spiral but just upward. The first one who moves will be the first one who is hit. Not a nice thing, but the story is always told like nobody can keep up with a 109 when she is pulling her tricks.

Well - no.

The 109 might be the best combination currently, but that does not mean that it excel at everything and that a lot of planes can't keep up with it in certain fields or surpass it.

 

The current situation of guns, mostly speaking about how HE works against the planes and how fragmentation does work, is another story.

At last frag was buffed a bit recently. Not enough but well...

And don't make me talk about "HE"-ammo for MGs, that does not do any HE damage (hello japanese "HE"-ammo...). Japanese, italian and german 131 MGs should be closer to the swedish 13mm with HE ammo then to whatever they are right now.

 

7 hours ago, willcliff said:

I have flown every lowtier plane on that list. I have no problem killing early f and e 109s, f4 and up are the problem.

I have no problem with killing F4s and up most of the time. Getting down a well flown 47D28 or 51H can be as hard as getting down an F4. Just in another way.

So...

 

8 hours ago, willcliff said:

Yes, I have bad stats in the f4 because of years of being a bad pilot. I consistently got better games in the f4 than in the 3.7 d28. I also have a kd of 30 on my second account. stats are meaningless

You should try out some other planes at your stats padding account too.

 

8 hours ago, willcliff said:

please tell me this is a joke

I told you why.

I got such a fight against an 109 starting 2km above me (directly above me) in a private match. It was a clean 109 (no gunpods) and someone I know wanted to do a match. Not a bad 109 pilot btw.

When he wanted to attack I simply went into a shallow dive untill the distance was not getting lower anymore.

His mistake was to do the frustration shoots at to long distance. Together with already loosing speed because of being faster then his level speed after leveling out. So he lost speed and this way energy.

He pulled up, I pulled up. But not as hard as he did. And it didn't took that much time to close the gap in altitude to below 500m while having more energy (speed) then him. A little more time and I would have been in the superior position, while he was already was not able to keep me away from attack reds on the run. In the end he said he can't keep up and will loose in the long run and went down to the deck..

It is simply the point where the 109 fails against the 51C and I used that one. The difference is not as big as between 51H and 109K, but it is big enough. It is what that what US "Pursuit" planes have been build for. Be fast from point A to point B.

I would think you would have flown slightly different and you might have been able to hold your advantage better. But there are simply limits the plane has. And one of those limits is the Vmax.

 

You only think in "where is that plane weaker against the 109". I think in "where is it stronger".

 

8 hours ago, willcliff said:

Best prop in rb? Sure. Arcade? Nope, it doesnt fit the meta well enough. E-retention and guns arent on par with 109s

A He 162, A F-80 or F-84, a Kikka or a Me 262A2a don't got good E-retention and not all of them got good guns.

But getting them down with any 109 will need a lot of mistakes from their pilots, like it does need mistakes of the pilot to kill an 51H. Simply because the 51H is closer to those jets then to the 109.

It is not about who fits the climb and "elevator" meta best with the currently best working guns, it is about what plane would have the upper hand with two pilots on the same level.

You can munch better through all those bad to worse guys with the 109, mostly because of the guns, then with the F-80, doesn't make her the better plane. Just the better killer. A wodden club won't surpass a metal warhammer, just because you were in a field of baby seals recently.

 

You all here pretend, that the 109 is soooo much better then any other plane and will surpass every other plane in any situation.

And that you HAVE to fly this plane because of this To be honest, that connection is very weak. And if it is about just showing your skills it gets even weaker...

 

The 109 might be one of the best combinations currently, but it is not the superpower plane. A lot of planes will be able to outdo her, the moment you don't let the 109 pilot force you to fight on his terms.

It is not the fault of the other planes, that 95% of the playerbase don't even know what weaknesses or strenghs their planes got and that you can force them to follow your 109 meta.

 

8 hours ago, willcliff said:

dont try this vs a good pilot, you will die

I did and I didn't.

It is a situation where you need another blue to do the job though.

8 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

The problem is, the K-4 got buffed last patch

 

The engine power was upped so now it generally is faster than the P-51H. Yes the mustang will get away in the long run but if you do any maneuver at all the K-4 can easily catch you due to the absurd acceleration. Currently the only threat the K-4 faces are other 109s, especially the 109 G-2, and Kikkas/F-84s. Nothing else is able to challenge it on anywhere close to an even footing.

In my testrun the 51H was still faster but slower in acceleration.

Thats why I always say, that you have to use it like a jet. Same goes for D-30 against F4.

And I would add the 262A2a. But that is basically a 7.3 plane (well, overtired there I would say) down on 6.7 because of missing 2 guns.

Those "gun tax" on the BR is one of the stupid things in Warthunder.

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

6 hours ago, anyuser said:

You might want to check the difference of matches between all my most flown planes and yours.
How many planes I have flown in general, what planes I have flown and how many planes I have upgraded with good success.

I did and I could see I got around 26 different planes where I have more matches than your most used plane, I could also see that your most used planes by nation are always some of the best planes of each nation at those tiers, P-47D-28, Bf109 F-4 (FOTM Forever), Yak-3, Ki-84 Ko, Spitfire Mk.IIb, G.55 Serie 1, VG.33C-1. You also seem to prefer to play tier 2-3 planes compared to me in tier 3-4 planes.

7 hours ago, anyuser said:

But even today, build a german (now) 4.0 (or back then 3.7) lineup. Your choices will be limited. Even more if you want to unlock some of the SP-missions ("win X times with plane Y").

Still have to do that for some planes. Not anymore for the 109F4 though.

I hope you realize that when I mean I play to get the most kills I can while surviving takes me to using less the second or third planes in my lineups, so that means I'll play the best ones at each BR more than the less better ones. Of course if you play by letting your planes die and then jump into a new one then I'm sure you'll have more diversity in what you play.

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

On 17/09/2020 at 05:03, Pope_Shizzle said:

I've ran into at least 2 dozen people with 20:1 KDR's in those planes. 

Warning: AI planes count into that too!

 

Nvm just read its arcade section

[anyuser 5,136]

15 hours ago, sardinha08@psn said:

I did and I could see I got around 26 different planes where I have more matches than your most used plane, I could also see that your most used planes by nation are always some of the best planes of each nation at those tiers, P-47D-28, Bf109 F-4 (FOTM Forever), Yak-3, Ki-84 Ko, Spitfire Mk.IIb, G.55 Serie 1, VG.33C-1.

At first, with 3x more battles only 26 more planes with more flyouts is not a number I would put into the first line.

 

I was talking about how often you used your most used planes compared to all the others. The difference is very high for very few planes...

And I told you why some of those planes are in a setup and used compareable often. Simply because there is or was a gap and those planes are the backbone of a setup. The 109 F4 was in a setup of G2, F4, F4trop and E3.

Fun old days... Only 2 upgrades you needed hundrets of kills for and huge gaps in the trees.

 

Because you want to grind a skin (300 something kills sometimes) or because you want to unlock a SP mission.

Still need around 50 wins with the one certain IL2, the He 111H16 and the I-16 type 28 to unlock the last 3.

And because of AB "win" means "the last plane you used before the match was won". You can expect, that I will start the match with something different and play for the win, including throwing away planes if needed. Did so for the 109F4 already. So some russian planes might get 100+ more flyouts and the F4 will get some too.

 

You havn't seen those old times and with your flyouts you could have surpassed that goals a long time ago.

You just use those planes for getting high killstreaks the easy way.

15 hours ago, sardinha08@psn said:

 You also seem to prefer to play tier 2-3 planes compared to me in tier 3-4 planes.

 

I have used the Spitfire MK2b in a setup together with the Spitfire MK Vb trop and, I think it was some spit MKIX back then. And my Boston/DB-7/Havoc were used up to BR 6.0 by me (together with the seafire for example) because for a long time GB didn't got something better. Well, they still didn't got something much better but better to some degree. The only nation my bomber slots are filled with fighter bombers...

And while I preffer those older planes, it simply happends the moment you research and upgrade everything and not just 50% of what you got. T2 got 100% research eff for researching T1 to T3.

 

15 hours ago, sardinha08@psn said:

I hope you realize that when I mean I play to get the most kills I can while surviving takes me to using less the second or third planes in my lineups, so that means I'll play the best ones at each BR more than the less better ones. Of course if you play by letting your planes die and then jump into a new one then I'm sure you'll have more diversity in what you play.

I understand that you play for K/D

 

Most of the time I play for upgrading a certain plane. And because many don't work well unupgraded (german default 20mm is hell, engine injection is still a must have, etc.), I have to jump into another plane. I play for survival, but it is a much harder target to archiv the moment you do not use the best plane and one that isn't even fully upgraded. Current target: chinese IL-10 - what a fun.

I'm not willing to be one of the one death leavers but I preffer to make more lions and XP.

And if there are only a few GTs left I will throw away my fighter to spawn a bomb carrier, if it is possible and if I want that win bonus. Don't care much about K/D anyway, while I would say K/battle is more important anyway. Some of those K/D statpadders are just a big joke with 0,5 kills per battle but 10+ K/D... (youi are different for sure)

I already got my diversity from setups that are build for multi purpose useage and from upgradeing nearly everything (exept most 4 engine bombers, Wellis and Yers), not because I die on purpose or because I do the suicide GT rush. Some do archive 90%+ winrate doing so...

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

At first, with 3x more battles only 26 more planes with more flyouts is not a number I would put into the first line.

Actually you seem to forget that almost a third of my battles are in tanks so I still got around 21 more than you do. And they'll go from 109s to Yaks, La's, Spitfires, Tempest, Typhoon, Hurricane, P-51 and Bearcat, so there seems to be a lot of different type of planes and most of them tier 4.

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

I was talking about how often you used your most used planes compared to all the others. The difference is very high for very few planes...

There is only one where the difference is very high, Bf109 G-2, cause it's a premium plane I use to farm SL and cause it's a plane I usually play some events in, besides enjoying to play it of course.

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

And I told you why some of those planes are in a setup and used compareable often. Simply because there is or was a gap and those planes are the backbone of a setup. The 109 F4 was in a setup of G2, F4, F4trop and E3.

Fun old days... Only 2 upgrades you needed hundrets of kills for and huge gaps in the trees.

 I use Bf109 F-4s on 5.0-6.0 lineups all the time, it just doesn't mean that I'll really use them cause I would have to die in other planes first and as I told you, I don't play like that.

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

You havn't seen those old times and with your flyouts you could have surpassed that goals a long time ago.

Are we talking about a different game now? Let's discuss this one please.
 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

You just use those planes for getting high killstreaks the easy way.

Again, why do you think players like me can't do it in other planes?

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

I have used the Spitfire MK2b in a setup together with the Spitfire MK Vb trop and, I think it was some spit MKIX back then. And my Boston/DB-7/Havoc were used up to BR 6.0 by me (together with the seafire for example) because for a long time GB didn't got something better. Well, they still didn't got something much better but better to some degree. The only nation my bomber slots are filled with fighter bombers...

And while I preffer those older planes, it simply happends the moment you research and upgrade everything and not just 50% of what you got. T2 got 100% research eff for researching T1 to T3.

I don't think there was anything between Spitfire Mk.IIb or Spitfire Vb/trop and Spitfire Mk.IX when I grinded british tree so I don't think it was very different for me, the other two Spitfires only arrived later, so you'd have one or two 3.7 planes and then a 4.3 one.

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

I understand that you play for K/D

Then you really don't understand nothing I've said above, a K/D is something that can be manipulated very easy, you would just need to fly very passively, getting a few easy kills and then making sure you would reach the end of the match without dying which is very different from trying to get the biggest amount of kills in one match while surviving.

 

5 hours ago, anyuser said:

Most of the time I play for upgrading a certain plane. And because many don't work well unupgraded (german default 20mm is hell, engine injection is still a must have, etc.), I have to jump into another plane. I play for survival, but it is a much harder target to archiv the moment you do not use the best plane and one that isn't even fully upgraded. Current target: chinese IL-10 - what a fun.

So you're probably the kind that goes to upgrade an Fw190 or Bf109 at 5.3-6.0 but then sees who's on the other team and decide to take the FOTM plane instead.  

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by sardinha08@psn

[sardinha08@psn 3,179]

1 hour ago, anyuser said:

I'm not willing to be one of the one death leavers but I preffer to make more lions and XP.

Well, when I play I usually have a certain plane in mind, not an entire lineup, so if I decide to play 1 plane then I'll play 1 plane, if I decide to play more planes then I'll play more planes, not you or anybody will make me play differently from how I decided to play. It's my free time not yours.

 

1 hour ago, anyuser said:

And if there are only a few GTs left I will throw away my fighter to spawn a bomb carrier, if it is possible and if I want that win bonus. Don't care much about K/D anyway, while I would say K/battle is more important anyway. Some of those K/D statpadders are just a big joke with 0,5 kills per battle but 10+ K/D... (youi are different for sure)

I already got my diversity from setups that are build for multi purpose useage and from upgradeing nearly everything (exept most 4 engine bombers, Wellis and Yers), not because I die on purpose or because I do the suicide GT rush. Some do archive 90%+ winrate doing so...

I don't care for winning in teams of random players, those that want to kill you in one match are the ones aside you in the next match(some still trying to kill you), I don't care for win bonus cause my goal is not grinding but having fun, except if I'm playing certain events or doing tasks, so I play the planes I like the way I like and I'm sure there are other players in the enemy team doing the same. It's not that teams are balanced in this game anyway.

Edited September 20, 2020 by sardinha08@psn

[CyberNapoleon 599]

I mean, there's no skill, that's why they do it 

[blastedryan 967]

If seals have no skill and clubbers have no skill

then seals and clubbers are equally matched.

 

If they are equally matched

then clubbers cannot club seals.

[PARAMI 478]

On 18/09/2020 at 14:23, anyuser said:

Against same BR 109

 

P-47D-28 (at last that one)

P-47M

P-51D-30

P-51H (when I was upgrading that one, none 109 ever was able to get me...)

Mig-3-15

He 100

F4U1A (well one of the most undertired planes of the game...) and the USMC one.

F4U1D

Ki-44 (I know the guns are bad, but no 109 E or early F will ever be able to get you off of her tail)

CW-21 (that thing is a joke...)

H-75

VG-33

Mörkö-Morane

Pyörremyrsky

 

And those are just planes, that can deal with a same BR 109 compareable quick.

I know that some can be seen as low tier sealclubers, as the 109E1.

But the 109F4 can be seen the same way at its current state.

 

I agree with you in your affinity for flying "non-meta" aircraft, since I barely ever fly FOTMs these days. However, I think that (no offense) your assessments are often capped by skill level. As you get better, your assessments of planes tend to change. 

 

A lot of top pilots I know shy away from mediocre planes because flying them can be a chore. One 109 or J2M at altitude will absolutely ruin your entire game. When you're at a level where you know that you have a 99% chance of winning if you had been in a 109 or J2M yourself, and you get absolutely stomped by a random monkey because there's literally nothing you can do other than go in circles above your AF, it's humiliating and frustrating. When you have a clan tag like mine, where every other guy who kills me regardless of what I'm flying or whether I'm busy dealing with 5 other people has to PM me and gloat about killing the big bad erekt player, it's even worse. However, I'm a psychopath, so I play garbage planes anyway and suck it up. 

 

In my experience, most of those planes in the list would not last very long against 109s. Some of your choices are honestly laughable--corsairs and mustangs, really? The three I can agree with are the Pyor, vg, and ki44. The 51h as well, if you count running away as winning. If you're having trouble against some of these planes in a 109, then it's a L2P issue. It is true that any 109 below the f4 isn't quite as dangerous. It's mostly the G2 and F4 that cause so much grief. If you aren't running into 109 trouble when flying, for example, the d30 mustang, then you're either delusional or lucky enough to meet only monkeys. Willcliff has a pretty accurate list of other "meta" planes that can match up with 109s. Most of those planes can because they fly like 109s. 

 

Also, your 20:1 KD in the Mig seems to be a very blatant over exaggeration. Thunderskill has it at like 6 right now. Your kills per flyout is at 3-ish, so that's pretty mediocre as well.  

Edited September 22, 2020 by PARAMI

[Crome 78]

I think it is because high BR is not fun in general.

So then you get told. "play lower Br!"

And then you do after being trained to play the most optimal way and face those who are not.

I don't fly the 109, I dislike the plane and it feels broken.

[Lexing_ 241]

8 hours ago, Crome said:

I think it is because high BR is not fun in general.

So then you get told. "play lower Br!"

And then you do after being trained to play the most optimal way and face those who are not.

I don't fly the 109, I dislike the plane and it feels broken.

The problem is the only way you're gonna have fun is if you fly a 109 or a J2M2, because there's gonna be some tryhard in one of those two who will target you as soon as you climb. That and nothing else is really competitive against them nowadays like willcliff said.

 

[PARAMI 478]

16 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

The problem is the only way you're gonna have fun is if you fly a 109 or a J2M2, because there's gonna be some tryhard in one of those two who will target you as soon as you climb. That and nothing else is really competitive against them nowadays like willcliff said.

 

You can have fun as long as you can convince yourself that you're having fun :^) 

 

Play every game with low standards, and you'll never find yourself disappointed. When you spam planes like the VB10, that's what you have to keep telling yourself :')

[Lexing_ 241]

32 minutes ago, PARAMI said:

You can have fun as long as you can convince yourself that you're having fun :^) 

 

Play every game with low standards, and you'll never find yourself disappointed. When you spam planes like the VB10, that's what you have to keep telling yourself :')

You're probably right, play the I-225 with standards of 2 kills and 8 assists per game and I won't be too disappointed ahaha

[anyuser 5,136]

On 20/09/2020 at 15:00, sardinha08@psn said:

Actually you seem to forget that almost a third of my battles are in tanks so I still got around 21 more than you do. And they'll go from 109s to Yaks, La's, Spitfires, Tempest, Typhoon, Hurricane, P-51 and Bearcat, so there seems to be a lot of different type of planes and most of them tier 4.

 

There is only one where the difference is very high, Bf109 G-2, cause it's a premium plane I use to farm SL and cause it's a plane I usually play some events in, besides enjoying to play it of course.

 

 I use Bf109 F-4s on 5.0-6.0 lineups all the time, it just doesn't mean that I'll really use them cause I would have to die in other planes first and as I told you, I don't play like that.

 

Are we talking about a different game now? Let's discuss this one please.

There is no need for you to only fly the best planes and leave out nearly 50% of what you have unlocked.

You got enough kills to unlock every skin for them by now.

 

Exept you want to fly only the better stuff. And that is what I nearyl only see by people of your and similar clans. It seems to be strongly about using the better stuff.

 

On 20/09/2020 at 15:00, sardinha08@psn said:

Again, why do you think players like me can't do it in other planes?

Because I have seen it often enough, that players "like you" break down if they can't fly an FOTM or something that flys like an 109?

I don't say it is the case for you, while many of your planes are not even close to the best 109 (even other 109). But it is an general observation.

 

On 20/09/2020 at 15:00, sardinha08@psn said:

Then you really don't understand nothing I've said above, a K/D is something that can be manipulated very easy, you would just need to fly very passively, getting a few easy kills and then making sure you would reach the end of the match without dying which is very different from trying to get the biggest amount of kills in one match while surviving.

Thats why I talked about K/Battle earlyer. I have seen both. And I have seen enough of those low killcont each battle but high K/D, who saw themself as elite players. They are funny but nothing else.

 

K/D is more like a general term of good killcounts.

And saying it again, for me the later one you named is nothing special when done with the general FOTMs. I don't see the challenge in that one.

Even more if you can simply play elevator above the spawn, because everybody comming from below is stupid enough for jumping the shark. Hell, I got games with up to 8 kills with a B-25 because of this in one match. Not by gunners but just by picking up prophanging idiots who wanted to kill me so bad for the 3rd time (even headoning with a bomber without fixed frontal guns).

 

On 20/09/2020 at 15:00, sardinha08@psn said:

 at 5.3-6.0 but then sees who's on the other team and decide to take the FOTM plane instead.  

I wouldn't have upgraded that many planes (and even bombers without dying in a match), if I would do so...

Have to say, bearly look at the scorebord before spawning the first time anyway. More like starting with the plane I want (if the map does work for it, wouldn't spawn a bomber in A-Dom or most Dom matches) and adapting to the situation.

 

On 20/09/2020 at 15:13, sardinha08@psn said:

Well, when I play I usually have a certain plane in mind, not an entire lineup, so if I decide to play 1 plane then I'll play 1 plane, if I decide to play more planes then I'll play more planes, not you or anybody will make me play differently from how I decided to play. It's my free time not yours.

I do so too, but without flying the best of the best and with upgrading a new thing surviving the whole match isn't given all the time.

On 20/09/2020 at 15:13, sardinha08@psn said:

I don't care for winning in teams of random players, those that want to kill you in one match are the ones aside you in the next match(some still trying to kill you), I don't care for win bonus cause my goal is not grinding but having fun, except if I'm playing certain events or doing tasks, so I play the planes I like the way I like and I'm sure there are other players in the enemy team doing the same. It's not that teams are balanced in this game anyway.

I play for RP most of the time.

Winning is a bonus I will follow, when the fruit hangs low. Else I will go for more RP

And no, teams are not balanced.

 

 

On 22/09/2020 at 03:59, PARAMI said:

Also, your 20:1 KD in the Mig seems to be a very blatant over exaggeration. Thunderskill has it at like 6 right now. Your kills per flyout is at 3-ish, so that's pretty mediocre as well.  

 

On 18/09/2020 at 20:23, anyuser said:

But Mig-3? Come on, the HMG Mig-3s are THE sealclubers at their BR. When I was flying the 15 out with more experience I was like 20:1 when it comes to K/D (just looking at that time), often enough with close to 20 kills (end then the match ended to Su-2s or F-222 or something similar...).

Wasn't enough to outdo my stupidy of the past though.

 

I was flying the Mig AGAIN for some skins and in THAT time...

 

 

On 22/09/2020 at 03:59, PARAMI said:

A lot of top pilots I know shy away from mediocre planes because flying them can be a chore. One 109 or J2M at altitude will absolutely ruin your entire game. When you're at a level where you know that you have a 99% chance of winning if you had been in a 109 or J2M yourself, and you get absolutely stomped by a random monkey because there's literally nothing you can do other than go in circles above your AF, it's humiliating and frustrating. 

Sounds more like a weak excuse and an even weaker self image, that relies on being "the best".

I could understand bad feelings about beeing shoot down in RB. But AB...

Sorry to say that.

 

On 22/09/2020 at 03:59, PARAMI said:

In my experience, most of those planes in the list would not last very long against 109s. Some of your choices are honestly laughable--corsairs and mustangs, really? The three I can agree with are the Pyor, vg, and ki44. The 51h as well, if you count running away as winning. If you're having trouble against some of these planes in a 109, then it's a L2P issue. It is true that any 109 below the f4 isn't quite as dangerous. It's mostly the G2 and F4 that cause so much grief. If you aren't running into 109 trouble when flying, for example, the d30 mustang, then you're either delusional or lucky enough to meet only monkeys. Willcliff has a pretty accurate list of other "meta" planes that can match up with 109s. Most of those planes can because they fly like 109s. 

Against same BR 109?
Sure the F4U1 will be better. It would have to use Boom and zoom, but who cares. You are nearly 100kph faster...

And the 51H, lets say there are other things then trying to turn a situation instandly, like you can do with an 109, if somebody plays to your terms.

Other planes are more about, that they can decide when the fight starts, and when it ends. Against those the 109 is more like a Zero was back in history. You have to wait and react, you might even behind your enemy.

But you will not be in charge of the fight.

Those planes I named are not "meta", but they got their strengh, that can be used against "meta" planes without any problem and without the "meta" plane being able to do much against that.

Because as much as it seems, what you call "meta" is, that you are an elevator, that can pull energy out of his arse with a strong rudder.

 

You have been good with the 51h and not much worse then with your 109F4. Might it be more the case, that you didn't meet that much people using the 51h to its full strengh?
Sometimes it more seems like all this 109 stuff is more like an selffullfilling prophecy, because you bearly meet good pilots in something else.

And the number of bad pilots in 109s is much higher then the number of good ones too.

 

On 22/09/2020 at 03:59, PARAMI said:

I agree with you in your affinity for flying "non-meta" aircraft, since I barely ever fly FOTMs these days. However, I think that (no offense) your assessments are often capped by skill level. As you get better, your assessments of planes tend to change. 

To be honest, it sometimes seems like your clans tend to wear blinkers while stewing in your own juice.

2 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

You're probably right, play the I-225 with standards of 2 kills and 8 assists per game and I won't be too disappointed ahaha

And even with that you would be twice as good as the usual player...

(sad enough)

[willcliff 116]

3 hours ago, anyuser said:

Because I have seen it often enough, that players "like you" break down if they can't fly an FOTM or something that flys like an 109?

Good pilots don't lose their skill regardless of the plane they're flying. Unfortunately, this is an effect of the dominance 109s have in arcade. If you don't fly one, you're bound to get swarmed by them.

[Lexing_ 241]

On 19/09/2020 at 05:00, anyuser said:

I told you why.

I got such a fight against an 109 starting 2km above me (directly above me) in a private match. It was a clean 109 (no gunpods) and someone I know wanted to do a match. Not a bad 109 pilot btw.

When he wanted to attack I simply went into a shallow dive untill the distance was not getting lower anymore.

His mistake was to do the frustration shoots at to long distance. Together with already loosing speed because of being faster then his level speed after leveling out. So he lost speed and this way energy.

He pulled up, I pulled up. But not as hard as he did. And it didn't took that much time to close the gap in altitude to below 500m while having more energy (speed) then him. A little more time and I would have been in the superior position, while he was already was not able to keep me away from attack reds on the run. In the end he said he can't keep up and will loose in the long run and went down to the deck..

It is simply the point where the 109 fails against the 51C and I used that one. The difference is not as big as between 51H and 109K, but it is big enough. It is what that what US "Pursuit" planes have been build for. Be fast from point A to point B.

I would think you would have flown slightly different and you might have been able to hold your advantage better. But there are simply limits the plane has. And one of those limits is the Vmax.

 

You only think in "where is that plane weaker against the 109". I think in "where is it stronger".

That 109 pilot dun goofed up, all he had to do was be mindful of his altitude and go into a shallow zoom climb (20 degrees will do fine) to try and bait you into a climbing spiral. It was clear he didn't understand how to fly his plane, like you claimed he did. Part of knowing your plane and its weaknesses is knowing how far it can dive down without losing energy, and 109 F-4 and onwards are capable of 2.8 km dives without losing energy which is why other planes struggle so hard against them. This goes for the J2M2 as well. I doubt a good 109 pilot will ever die to a mustang in a 1v1, and even someone with half a brain in the Bf 109 Yank-4 can make life very difficult for anything else.

 

By the way, the 51H is capable of dealing with 109s, but the D-30 or the D-5 definitely aren't. The D-30 can't accelerate well enough to stay away from a 109, so it has to constantly keep its speed up which entails diving at almost all times during the engagement, and the D-5 does not outrun the 109 F-4 at all in level flight, much less outclimb or outdive it enough to not get shot down. Contrary to history, the US planes in this game are not fast. They are slow and are whales. The P-47Ds are maybe the only competitive planes that they have capable of consistent 15 kill games, and now they've raised them to 4.0.

[anyuser 5,136]

20 hours ago, willcliff said:

Good pilots don't lose their skill regardless of the plane they're flying. Unfortunately, this is an effect of the dominance 109s have in arcade. If you don't fly one, you're bound to get swarmed by them.

There are enough pilots who can fly one style of combat but not others.

 

18 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

That 109 pilot dun goofed up, all he had to do was be mindful of his altitude and go into a shallow zoom climb (20 degrees will do fine) to try and bait you into a climbing spiral.

Wait a sec, while you call him an idiot more or less, you want me to get a brain short circuit to fail for this one?

Everybody who tries to follow an 109 into a spiral climb with a Mustang does not know either of those planes and if he do it twice he is an idiot.

 

I mean, all of our killstreaks do rely on idiots doing stupid things. Its not like you fight for them against the best but more like bouncing the same guys over and over again who climb at you with worse and worse planes over and over again to "finaly get you".

But in this case you realy want to go this far? Trying to bait one of the US pursiut fighters into a spiral climb when he has shown a "not gonna do that boy"-sign?

Do you realy expect everybody being braindead? 

I mean, you can expet at last 12 out of 16, but come on...

18 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Part of knowing your plane and its weaknesses is knowing how far it can dive down without losing energy, and 109 F-4 and onwards are capable of 2.8 km dives without losing energy which is why other planes struggle so hard against them.

You can dive without losing energy as long as you don't reach the dive Vmax of your plane.

The distance changes based on your altitude AND the speed we are starting at. For sure you can't dive 2.8km with an 109F4 without redlining and loosing energy,  when you are already close to 100% or even WEP top speed.

And in comparison that top speed is neither high for the 109 nore for the J2M. And because of being so lightweight the acceleration of the 109 in a dive isn't even that great, as their holding energy when ending the dive.

 

18 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

By the way, the 51H is capable of dealing with 109s, but the D-30 or the D-5 definitely aren't. The D-30 can't accelerate well enough to stay away from a 109, so it has to constantly keep its speed up which entails diving at almost all times during the engagement, and the D-5 does not outrun the 109 F-4 at all in level flight, much less outclimb or outdive it enough to not get shot down. 

At first, where I named the D5?
And about outaccelerating a 109. Why you were slow with a D30 in the first place? Yes, a P51 has to keep its speed up. But it is faster without diving.

You can do your energy fighting thing with the 109. It was build for that.

The US pursiut fighters where not. Their idea was to go somewhere fast. You still talk about them as you have to use them like the 109.

Edited September 24, 2020 by anyuser

[PARAMI 478]

23 hours ago, anyuser said:

I was flying the Mig AGAIN for some skins and in THAT time...

 

 

Sounds more like a weak excuse and an even weaker self image, that relies on being "the best".

I could understand bad feelings about beeing shoot down in RB. But AB...

Sorry to say that.

 

Against same BR 109?
Sure the F4U1 will be better. It would have to use Boom and zoom, but who cares. You are nearly 100kph faster...

And the 51H, lets say there are other things then trying to turn a situation instandly, like you can do with an 109, if somebody plays to your terms.

Other planes are more about, that they can decide when the fight starts, and when it ends. Against those the 109 is more like a Zero was back in history. You have to wait and react, you might even behind your enemy.

But you will not be in charge of the fight.

Those planes I named are not "meta", but they got their strengh, that can be used against "meta" planes without any problem and without the "meta" plane being able to do much against that.

Because as much as it seems, what you call "meta" is, that you are an elevator, that can pull energy out of his arse with a strong rudder.

 

You have been good with the 51h and not much worse then with your 109F4. Might it be more the case, that you didn't meet that much people using the 51h to its full strengh?
Sometimes it more seems like all this 109 stuff is more like an selffullfilling prophecy, because you bearly meet good pilots in something else.

And the number of bad pilots in 109s is much higher then the number of good ones too.

 

To be honest, it sometimes seems like your clans tend to wear blinkers while stewing in your own juice.

And even with that you would be twice as good as the usual player...

(sad enough)

20 kd to 6 is quite a drop--were you 20-0 total in your first 5 games or something? 

 

I flew the H5 recently and I can say that it's really good. My stats in the F4 are comparable because it was one of my first planes--I usually average around 15 kpf in it when I decide to fly it. The H5 lies at a BR that is too high to get full teams consistently. It's about as good as the K4, so there is an argument to be made that you can beat 109s in it. I'll concede that to you--you're right. However, the d30 (and god forbid you're in a d5) has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an f4 or g2 flown by some mouth breather. I'm not saying that I haven't beaten 109s, as you can probably tell since you went through my statcard, but what I'm saying is that most of the odds are stacked against your favor. It usually comes down to blindsiding meta planes or attacking from a huge energy advantage--but if that's the case, almost any plane can beat a 109, so I consider that argument pointless. 

 

As for 109 pilots, I wholly agree that the majority are braindead. However, as I always tell my friends, I can teach a pet monkey to get a positive kd in a 109. Any mediocre player becomes a threat when they hop into an f4.That is not the case with most other planes in this game. 

 

Another comment--I'm not entirely sure you know at all what you're talking about. Your stats are thoroughly mediocre, so those deaths and low kpfs must be coming from somewhere, right? It seems to me that you're trying to knock "better" players off of their high horses without the prerequisite know-how and skill to do such a thing. If you believe that a 100 kph difference in top speed that a corsair has will save it from a 109 and that automatically makes it a 109 killer, you've basically ignored every single other aspect of each plane's flight model, the design of the game, and the goals that "top" players set for themselves. You assume that we count "winning" as being able to just win that one engagement versus a 109, where we in our corsair have to spend at least 10 minutes jockeying for energy advantage and playing 95% linearly, since we're dead the moment we make a single mistake. Meanwhile, that 109 is free to ignore us and get kills, and just literally move out of the way when we dive on them. If we had been in a 109 ourselves, we'd have just knocked the enemy out in a few seconds flat and been 15 kills deep during those ten minutes. Around half of my flyouts this past month have been in heavy fighters, so this is a situation I know all too well--being tied up by a thirsty and completely horrible player who just happens to have a plane that is better suited for the meta. 

 

As for RB, you should give it a try--you think more like an RB player than an AB one. RB emphasizes energy and top speed far more than AB does due to the low player count on each team and the sizes of the maps. I personally spade my planes in RB since I find it a far less demanding mode (yes, I actually think that RB props is easier than AB props, but that just might be my skill cap). 

 

 

[anyuser 5,136]

1 hour ago, PARAMI said:

20 kd to 6 is quite a drop--were you 20-0 total in your first 5 games or something? 

More like the Mig 3 was a long time ago one of the first planes I have flown and because of the tree structure back then for quite some time against much higher enemys.

 

And it didn't got its great ammo back then (you know, the time before the current upgrade system). It was more like an assist machine. Think about the Ki-44I when it comes to the weapons.

 

1 hour ago, PARAMI said:

I'll concede that to you--you're right. However, the d30 (and god forbid you're in a d5) has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an f4 or g2 flown by some mouth breather. I'm not saying that I haven't beaten 109s, as you can probably tell since you went through my statcard, but what I'm saying is that most of the odds are stacked against your favor. It usually comes down to blindsiding meta planes or attacking from a huge energy advantage--but if that's the case, almost any plane can beat a 109, so I consider that argument pointless. 

Where does that D5 even come from?
Why do you all write like I have named it? I did not for god sake...

 

And sure I will use the D30 only with energy advantage, because it is build for that. Energy advantage by speed. Thats what are the P-fighters have been about mostly. In History even the P-40 (depending on the enemy).

 

1 hour ago, PARAMI said:

Another comment--I'm not entirely sure you know at all what you're talking about. Your stats are thoroughly mediocre, so those deaths and low kpfs must be coming from somewhere, right? It seems to me that you're trying to knock "better" players off of their high horses without the prerequisite know-how and skill to do such a thing. If you believe that a 100 kph difference in top speed that a corsair has will save it from a 109 and that automatically makes it a 109 killer, you've basically ignored every single other aspect of each plane's flight model, the design of the game, and the goals that "top" players set for themselves. You assume that we count "winning" as being able to just win that one engagement versus a 109, where we in our corsair have to spend at least 10 minutes jockeying for energy advantage and playing 95% linearly, since we're dead the moment we make a single mistake. Meanwhile, that 109 is free to ignore us and get kills, and just literally move out of the way when we dive on them. If we had been in a 109 ourselves, we'd have just knocked the enemy out in a few seconds flat and been 15 kills deep during those ten minutes. Around half of my flyouts this past month have been in heavy fighters, so this is a situation I know all too well--being tied up by a thirsty and completely horrible player who just happens to have a plane that is better suited for the meta. 

Upgrade - next - upgrade - next.

In the past years I havn't used planes for much more then their upgrades. And when I wanted to have fun, I have taken out some underdog like the Boomerang MK 2 (and I had it up to 10:1 K/D for some time). I love my Whirlwind too.

 Or I was going for skins or mission unlocks. Most of the time not the best planes you have to use then. But even for upgrading I preffer the unusual stuff. I had much fun with the 262U4 or the Yak15. More then with the 109K4.
And if there is a "better" plane, I don't run away crying for mommy. In fact I have more fun fighting a good enemy and getting out of the game with 2 or 3 kills for one death, then just being stallclimbed by the same 3 guys 5 times each. That I count boring while it is paying out for sure.

 

While I mostly don't die to the "better" guy, but because of an old rule of air fights.

If you are to deeply involved into a dogfight it will take to long. And the longer it takes the higher is the chance, that a 3rd guy joins your party and is the lucky one.

And we got the good ol random pilot snipeing gunners too. You don't want to know how often my pilot died to a gunner with the He 162 or the Yak3U. Horay for planes without armored glas.

It think all my deaths with the He162 where either random fire (mostly gunners too) or pilot snipes. 

 

Might be the reason why I have seen people from your and similar clans not attacking certain bombers sometimes (even my Tu-2 wasn't attacked more often then it was).

About the Corsair. I named the undertired early Corsairs against same BR 109. That would be E and early Fs (and sorry, but at last the F2 is a very good flying plane). And against those they are killers. Not only because of speed but because of the arment and other things too.

Well, they are clubbers at their BR anyway.

 

I didn't named any Corsair above BR 3.
I didn't named them against any 109 above BR 3. either.

But like with the D-5, its fun to read what I have written without knowing about it.

 

Btw, the moment you turn away from my faster plane, I can trade my speed energy into something else and line up the next attack against you.

Hell, I did so in with the freaking Mosquito against a 109 that was raiding the spawn - while killing another guy several times because for some reason he was mad on me (you know, headoning a Mosquito with a P-36 and such things...).

He was able to evade, but had problems fighting off the other blues after doing so, getting critical damaged and downed in the end. And he was not able to line up on me fast enough too. That is what I like to do. And no, I didn't got the kill.

 

 

Btw, I know that I do think more like playing RB. That I'm not so much after many kills but good kills or good tacital flying.

But I find RB simply boring and the players aren't much better or smarter then the usual AB-jockey. Enough guys are even unable to get those overloaded US fighter bombers into the air...

Still my "medicore" stats on bad to worse planes are more often above the usual playerbase then not. Maybe because of flying out of the box.

Edited September 24, 2020 by anyuser

[VT_88 342]

Best way to fix it (Spawn Camping) is:

 

Your BR is the highest you have in your line up.

 

No more down tiers unless you have a full line up.  No more spawn campers with out working for it.

 

If players need a boost in research to get modification on a new plane;

 

Gaijin created Assault Mode. Play that to get your modification first.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by VT_88

[MickoBGD 57]

Most seal clubbers and spawn campers are good players. So whoever says something else is wrong or bad player so just complains. Still, playing for stats purely like seal clubbers do will make their "real stats" a lot better, I mean on KD ratio.

 

It's simple:

1) Downtier your best plane - 10% stats increase

2) Play only OP planes - 30% stats increase

3) Play in squad - 30% stats increase

4) Play purely for stats - 30% stats increase

etc...

 

Of course numbers are just random... But when you see someone with 10:1 KD ratio it is not that he is a pro but he may be. Any player who does not give a damn for stats and play for fun with 3:1 kd ratio can make 12:1 for example if he plays by following mentioned rules... 

 

Somehow better stats to check if someone is good is to see how many kills he makes per game. Just KD is not so relevant. Even an idiot can make 10:1 if he tries to make 1 kill per 2 games by waiting lone bombers behind his lines... But when you see a lot of kills in a single game it must be skill...

[Lexing_ 241]

11 hours ago, MickoBGD said:

It's simple:

1) Downtier your best plane - 10% stats increase

2) Play only OP planes - 30% stats increase

3) Play in squad - 30% stats increase

4) Play purely for stats - 30% stats increase

etc...

Pretty much. Besides climbing at the start to 5000m will give you another 100% stats increase (tried and tested)

 

[PARAMI 478]

On 02/11/2020 at 23:28, MickoBGD said:

Most seal clubbers and spawn campers are good players. So whoever says something else is wrong or bad player so just complains. Still, playing for stats purely like seal clubbers do will make their "real stats" a lot better, I mean on KD ratio.

 

It's simple:

1) Downtier your best plane - 10% stats increase

2) Play only OP planes - 30% stats increase

3) Play in squad - 30% stats increase

4) Play purely for stats - 30% stats increase

etc...

 

Of course numbers are just random... But when you see someone with 10:1 KD ratio it is not that he is a pro but he may be. Any player who does not give a damn for stats and play for fun with 3:1 kd ratio can make 12:1 for example if he plays by following mentioned rules... 

 

Somehow better stats to check if someone is good is to see how many kills he makes per game. Just KD is not so relevant. Even an idiot can make 10:1 if he tries to make 1 kill per 2 games by waiting lone bombers behind his lines... But when you see a lot of kills in a single game it must be skill...

You're entirely correct. Having a high KD with low KPF is a sign of caution, not overall skill. I know people like those who absolutely crumble when faced with any pressure at all from an enemy. And playing only OP planes is not in my opinion a marker of a great pilot, as those planes often forgive and even reward mistakes that can get you killed in any other plane. Someone who can get, say, 10:1 KD and 5 KPF in something like a 109 F4 is a good pilot, but leagues away from someone who can do the same in, say, something inferior like a Spitfire or late 190 Anton. The former cannot do the same in the bad planes, while the latter can do much better than 10-5 in a good plane. 

 

 

[Kosher_Locust 120]

My biggest issue with the F4 is it retains a ridiculous amount of energy and is overly maneuverable; it's the only BR 4 plane I can see people competing with and doing well in BR 6+ matches.   Flying it I've found it slow and not very well armed, so it's like a mosquito, hard to swat.  I don't get killed as often by them as I used to (today it's F-80's and P-51H's) but it's clear someone at Gaijin has a thing for the 109.

 

It's odd because for the most part the upper 109's in the game show what the Germans were doing near the end of the war, hot rodding them with higher boost and blisters and bubbles on the fuselage and wings for more armament.  But most pilots thought the Focke-Wulf-190 was a better armed and more maneuverable plane at lower altitudes.....which is were most game play happens.  The D series should have been the ultimate fighters but they're more like drag cars, intended to catch other planes.  And where's the D-11?  Yes only 17 were made but with 2 20mm and 2 30mm in a standard frame it should have been a giant killer.

 

And going up to jets I know the designers had a problem that Germany didn't have an Air Force for ten years, but they up tiered the ME-262 to take on later Cold war jets, leaving nothing in the mid 6 BR except two award planes (the He-162 with twin 20mm and the ME-262 with two 30MM) that can only be bought on the market for insane prices.  This is where the HE-280, a little slower than the 262 and with triple 20mm would it in perfectly as a BR 6.7 plane. 

 

Anyways, I used to never fly a single 109 because that's what "those" guys flew, but finally relented and joined the dark side.  I still prefer the Ta-152 and D-series 190, but have come to appreciate the K4 as a pretty good plane, and even get some good results with the G6 that everyone seems to hate.  However rather than nerf these planes they should elevate the others, so every Air Force has a couple of giant killer planes rather than we all fly the same thing.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

 

On 18/09/2020 at 13:23, anyuser said:

CW-21 (that thing is a joke...)

 I've had some good luck with it; people underestimate the plane can out turn most of it's peers, especially with combat flaps on. Most of the low tier planes have some merit since there's more variety among their performance.  I've even found the C.R.714 a fun plane to fly if you stay below a BR of 2.0.  It's four .30 cal machine guns make you feel like your tapping the bad guy on the shoulder asking "saywillyoujustjustlaydownandpleasedie!" but it can do things like a full power loop, drop the gear and take the airfield in domination.