Hungarian Tank Tree - Updated

[Mahiwew 529]

China could easily have a load of additions at lower tiers too, gaijin simply messed up their tree early on, resulting in the massive backlash and false idea of China having nothing of worth for the game.

[Milocat 4,857]

34 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

China could easily have a load of additions at lower tiers too, gaijin simply messed up their tree early on, resulting in the massive backlash and false idea of China having nothing of worth for the game.

 

This is also true, they deserve more attention at lower tiers but Gaijin doesn't seem to care much for the lower tiers in general these days even for the biggest nations.  

[Rockybrown 61]

9 hours ago, Milocat said:

 

China has a lot of unique vehicles, they just don't really start showing up until you get to tier 5 and above.  

 

It's true that you have to muddle your way through a lot of copy-paste in the lower tiers to get to that point but it's disingenuous to stretch that fact into a claim that they have nothing of their own to add to the game.  That's flat wrong.

Let's talk indeginous then, count how many tanks that their engineers drew and created on their own. There's definetly modifications, every nation in the game including future nations will too. But under that ZTZ line is a T-72 under Chinese parts. It is so similar that even reverse speed and gun depression is the same. The Hungarian tree will on it's own give us copy paste, but more indeginous vehicles than China and Israel combined, giving us more variety than copies. If Gaijin is smart about their next nations they should avoid copy paste as much as possible and only focus on new vehicles. Doesn't matter what is easier, they should start working on their trees and not copying, like Finland now for example. Finnish camo and slight modifications (for now) and the rest is like placing something in front of a mirror and calling it a "new" tree.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Rockybrown

[Mahiwew 529]

19 minutes ago, Rockybrown said:

Let's talk indeginous then, count how many tanks that their engineers drew and created on their own. There's definetly modifications, every nation in the game including future nations will too. But under that ZTZ line is a T-72 under Chinese parts. It is so similar that even reverse speed and gun depression is the same. The Hungarian tree will on it's own give us copy paste, but more indeginous vehicles than China and Israel combined, giving us more variety than copies. If Gaijin is smart about their next nations they should avoid copy paste as much as possible and only focus on new vehicles. Doesn't matter what is easier, they should start working on their trees and not copying, like Finland now for example. Finnish camo and slight modifications (for now) and the rest is like placing something in front of a mirror and calling it a "new" tree.

China never operated T-72 and only had access to a single one that was granted to them by Romania. 
While yes, Type 59 series is descendant of T-54, that's all it is.
It followed it's own development separate from the Russian tanks it was based on, incorporating local and Western technologies to further their design. 

The definition of "indigenous" states that something is to originate from a certain region. 
This would mean modifications too.

Regardless, to say they don't have anything interesting is also plain wrong.
YW531 family, ZTS-63 family, ZTQ-62 family, ZBL-08 family, WZ551 family, ZBD-04 family, this are a few of the vehicle families that could be added or expanded on.
Nevermind all the other projects not yet mentioned, the many single prototypes and Chinese air vehicles (though their ground is arguably more interesting from an earlier period than their air).

 

To say a Hungarian tree would provide more indigenous vehicles would be simply wrong.
Let us not ignore that Hungarian vehicles were largely based on foreign designs too. Toldi is obvious, Turan is based on Škoda T-21. Would these not be foreign vehicles according to your own logic?

 

Additionally, Finland is not it's own tree, it is part of the Swedish tree. 

 

[Milocat 4,857]

39 minutes ago, Rockybrown said:

Let's talk indeginous then, count how many tanks that their engineers drew and created on their own. There's definetly modifications, every nation in the game including future nations will too. But under that ZTZ line is a T-72 under Chinese parts. It is so similar that even reverse speed and gun depression is the same. The Hungarian tree will on it's own give us copy paste, but more indeginous vehicles than China and Israel combined, giving us more variety than copies. If Gaijin is smart about their next nations they should avoid copy paste as much as possible and only focus on new vehicles. Doesn't matter what is easier, they should start working on their trees and not copying, like Finland now for example. Finnish camo and slight modifications (for now) and the rest is like placing something in front of a mirror and calling it a "new" tree.

 

Ah, but I never used the word "indigenous", the word I used was "unique".  

 

Something like the Shenyang J-2 would not be unique because it is literally just a MiG-15 with a new name slapped onto it and nothing else changed.  But the ZTZ tanks are different.  Yes, they are based on the T-72, but they have been modified by the Chinese and for the Chinese to suit their needs.  They are not wholly 100% indigenous designs, not by a long shot, but they are unique vehicles because they have been modified and nobody else has a T-72 that has been altered from the base design in the same way as the ZTZ.  

 

So yes, actually, it is a unique vehicle, it just isn't an indigenous vehicle, nor is it a unique design.

 

That said you clearly have a vendetta against the Chinese tree in general so I'm not sure how productive this conversation is going to be.  I'm not going to change your mind, and since I'm not a dev, I can't make the game progress in the direction that you want either.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Milocat

[Rockybrown 61]

2 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

China never operated T-72 and only had access to a single one that was granted to them by Romania. 
While yes, Type 59 series is descendant of T-54, that's all it is.
It followed it's own development separate from the Russian tanks it was based on, incorporating local and Western technologies to further their design. 

The definition of "indigenous" states that something is to originate from a certain region. 
This would mean modifications too.

Regardless, to say they don't have anything interesting is also plain wrong.
YW531 family, ZTS-63 family, ZTQ-62 family, ZBL-08 family, WZ551 family, ZBD-04 family, this are a few of the vehicle families that could be added or expanded on.
Nevermind all the other projects not yet mentioned, the many single prototypes and Chinese air vehicles (though their ground is arguably more interesting from an earlier period than their air).

 

To say a Hungarian tree would provide more indigenous vehicles would be simply wrong.
Let us not ignore that Hungarian vehicles were largely based on foreign designs too. Toldi is obvious, Turan is based on Škoda T-21. Would these not be foreign vehicles according to your own logic?

 

Additionally, Finland is not it's own tree, it is part of the Swedish tree. 

 

Let me explain better to you: "under that ZTZ line is a T-72 under Chinese parts", while this sentence might have confused you, i never stated China used the T-72 under modifications, but rather copied every single bit of the T-72, made their own changes and made it their own thing. As MiloCat said: "Yes, they are based on the T-72, but they have been modified by the Chinese and for the Chinese to suit their needs" Should be good enough to clarify what i meant. But let me continue with Hungary and their implementation rather than the Chinese. While the Hungarian tree is very much the same as most other candidates when it comes to modern vehicles, with the exeption of modifications they did themselves, you must look at China and Israel's implementation as a role model for other countries implementations. The Israeli TT shows to us that a nation don't need to start at a low rank at all, and the Chinese TT is a suggestion that future nations will never have 100% home brewed vehicles. The Swedish TT and the French are the nations that have a lot of mixes, but a lot of indeginous made vehicles, but more than the other two. Hungary is nowhere as small as the Israel tech tree, and they have enough to even cut away some unecessary copy pastes to make it more Hungarian.

 

I understand that mixing the whole rest of the Eastern european nations in a singular tech tree is a wish for many people, but the majority supports having them seperated, or perhaps in historical mixes. I can give some examples: The Austrian-Hungarian empire was a thing, so therefore many people think that adding Austria with Hungary as one is enough of a combination, and many many more thinks Yugoslavia (which consist of most Balkan countries) should be a singular tree, it is also under consideration! And maybe a Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth to atleast include the Lithuanians that quite literally have no chance to even be a sub-tree? Either way, when Gaijin have set such standards like the newest nations, we should be able to expect less, right? The Finnish is ofc not a TT on it's own, when i mentioned them i wanted to clarify that what the Finnsh lineup in the Swedish tree is, is nothing more but mostly copy paste, (You must have misunderstood). But a better example is South Africa in the British TT, because South Africa was British until 1961.

 

But, as stated long ago, i hope Yugoslavia will be the next major nation to be released, considering they have even more vehicles to make War Thunder varied with their crazy frankenstein creations. We can continue the bickering, but what we will end up with is unanswered questions wether they will make it Visegrad, or standalone. We will see.

[Mahiwew 529]

8 hours ago, Rockybrown said:

Let me explain better to you: "under that ZTZ line is a T-72 under Chinese parts", while this sentence might have confused you, i never stated China used the T-72 under modifications, but rather copied every single bit of the T-72, made their own changes and made it their own thing. As MiloCat said: "Yes, they are based on the T-72, but they have been modified by the Chinese and for the Chinese to suit their needs" Should be good enough to clarify what i meant. But let me continue with Hungary and their implementation rather than the Chinese. While the Hungarian tree is very much the same as most other candidates when it comes to modern vehicles, with the exeption of modifications they did themselves, you must look at China and Israel's implementation as a role model for other countries implementations. The Israeli TT shows to us that a nation don't need to start at a low rank at all, and the Chinese TT is a suggestion that future nations will never have 100% home brewed vehicles. The Swedish TT and the French are the nations that have a lot of mixes, but a lot of indeginous made vehicles, but more than the other two. Hungary is nowhere as small as the Israel tech tree, and they have enough to even cut away some unecessary copy pastes to make it more Hungarian.

 

I understand that mixing the whole rest of the Eastern european nations in a singular tech tree is a wish for many people, but the majority supports having them seperated, or perhaps in historical mixes. I can give some examples: The Austrian-Hungarian empire was a thing, so therefore many people think that adding Austria with Hungary as one is enough of a combination, and many many more thinks Yugoslavia (which consist of most Balkan countries) should be a singular tree, it is also under consideration! And maybe a Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth to atleast include the Lithuanians that quite literally have no chance to even be a sub-tree? Either way, when Gaijin have set such standards like the newest nations, we should be able to expect less, right? The Finnish is ofc not a TT on it's own, when i mentioned them i wanted to clarify that what the Finnsh lineup in the Swedish tree is, is nothing more but mostly copy paste, (You must have misunderstood). But a better example is South Africa in the British TT, because South Africa was British until 1961.

 

But, as stated long ago, i hope Yugoslavia will be the next major nation to be released, considering they have even more vehicles to make War Thunder varied with their crazy frankenstein creations. We can continue the bickering, but what we will end up with is unanswered questions wether they will make it Visegrad, or standalone. We will see.

To continue on about China would indeed be silly within this topic, though my points stand.

I wouldn't agree that Hungary would be a better tree than Israel though. 
While Hungary would have interesting stuff at first, it would definitely be around mid-tier that things start to fall off fast.
While there are a few interesting additions, like some vehicles in the FuG family, it would generally be lackluster. 
None of the trees presented here have much of interest beyond 5.7 (except perhaps the one that requires permission to access, which I don't have).
Not even any unique T-55's or T-72's.
I'd argue that Hungary is a nation that would've had potential had it's arms industry expanded even just slightly more in the Cold War. Unfortunately, it didn't, and we're left with a great majority amount of copy paste.

The tiers that are interesting could be grinded in no-time too, which would turn off some people, though others would of course enjoy whatever they do have.
If it were up to me, I'd most rather incorporate Hungary as part of a Czechoslovak or Polish tree, under the pretences that they have a remarkably similar modern history and even share a minor military alliance nowadays. 

Hungary deserves representation, no doubt. I just don't think a full tree is the way to go.

[H3NDI21CK 2]

Maybe.... KF41 Lynx and JAS-39 Gripen too?

First delivered KF41 Lynx

Hungarian JAS 39 Gripen

Edited October 31, 2022 by H3NDI21CK

[Kingtiez@live 606]

+1, Independent Hungarian tree would also be a nice house for other sub trees

[Colerend 225]

-1 I like the idea of Hungary being a independent tree but there is simply not enough vehicles for them to exist in the game.

There would be no vehicles that could be added later down the line and the line ups that are presented would be lacking in every sense of a word. The only way that I can see Hungary being added is by making them a Sub Tree for Romania or Czechoslovakia if those two would ever get introduced into the game. Hungary has no business being in Italy.

 

[Mahiwew 529]

On 01/11/2022 at 04:30, Kingtiez@live said:

+1, Independent Hungarian tree would also be a nice house for other sub trees

What trees and why do you think could potentially reside in a Hungarian tree?

[Kingtiez@live 606]

2 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

What trees and why do you think could potentially reside in a Hungarian tree?

After some thinking, it would make more sense in the Italian tree.

[lLiberté 345]

17 minutes ago, Kingtiez@live said:

After some thinking, it would make more sense in the Italian tree.

 

  Either this or Visegrad, only two optimal decision in my eyes. In my heart, Hungary in Italian tree is the way. It should've been in Italian TT way way earlier. It could solve so much trouble without minimal backlash as Hungary offers everything Italian TT lacks especially at lower-middle tiers; 

• Light Tanks with Relatively Good Guns: Toldi Models
• Transitional Medium Tank: Turan I
• Derpy Medium Tank: Turan II
• All-Around Medium Tanks: Turan III and Tas 44M 
• Alternative Tank Destroyers: Toldi Páncélvadász, Zrinyis
• Anti-Airs to Fill Some Gaps: Nimrod, Krupp Protze

 

9 hours ago, Colerend said:

-1 I like the idea of Hungary being a independent tree but there is simply not enough vehicles for them to exist in the game.

There would be no vehicles that could be added later down the line and the line ups that are presented would be lacking in every sense of a word. The only way that I can see Hungary being added is by making them a Sub Tree for Romania or Czechoslovakia if those two would ever get introduced into the game. Hungary has no business being in Italy.

 

 

  Visegrad is always a good contender but we don't know Gaijin's policy about multi-national TT. 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Dewastor

[Mahiwew 529]

9 minutes ago, Dewastor said:

Visegrad is always a good contender but we don't know Gaijin's policy about multi-national TT. 

If the UK and Sweden are anything to go off of, they most certainly aren’t against it, though they would likely pick the tree to bear the flag of a single country and incorporate other nations as sub trees.

Practically comes down to the same thing at that point, just with a difference in presentation.

 

28 minutes ago, Kingtiez@live said:

2 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

After some thinking, it would make more sense in the Italian tree.

I see, was hoping to hear someone else’s perspective on things 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

4 hours ago, Dewastor said:

 

  Either this or Visegrad, only two optimal decision in my eyes. In my heart, Hungary in Italian tree is the way. It should've been in Italian TT way way earlier. It could solve so much trouble without minimal backlash as Hungary offers everything Italian TT lacks especially at lower-middle tiers; 

• Light Tanks with Relatively Good Guns: Toldi Models
• Transitional Medium Tank: Turan I
• Derpy Medium Tank: Turan II
• All-Around Medium Tanks: Turan III and Tas 44M 
• Alternative Tank Destroyers: Toldi Páncélvadász, Zrinyis
• Anti-Airs to Fill Some Gaps: Nimrod, Krupp Protze

 

 

  Visegrad is always a good contender but we don't know Gaijin's policy about multi-national TT. 

 

Don't have high hopes for 44M, it has a very low chance to be added to WT due to a lack of information and photos, which would show complete vehicle.

Hungary can work as a subnation to Italian TT, but imo only with Romania, as Hungary won't provide almost anything ingenious  after certain brs, while Romania will.

 

[Colerend 225]

On 10/11/2022 at 19:26, Dewastor said:

Visegrad is always a good contender but we don't know Gaijin's policy about multi-national TT. 

I dunno. Czechoslovakia and Poland could have tech trees on their own. Hungary is the only one from them all that has too little vehicles. Maybe Hungary could be a sub tree for Czechoslovakia?

 

[PacketlossRedux 595]

3 hours ago, Colerend said:

I dunno. Czechoslovakia and Poland could have tech trees on their own. Hungary is the only one from them all that has too little vehicles. Maybe Hungary could be a sub tree for Czechoslovakia?

 

3czech 0polish vehicles at tier 2 ground

0czech 0polish vehicles at tier 3 ground

 

most likely all of these nations will be sub trees

Edited November 11, 2022 by PacketlossRedux

[Mahiwew 529]

2 hours ago, PacketlossRedux said:

3czech 0polish vehicles at tier 2 ground

0czech 0polish vehicles at tier 3 ground

 

most likely all of these nations will be sub trees

There's the Firefly in the British tree, though it's only a single one.

Vehicle numbers are a poor indicator for what nation ought to come next in game though, as there was only a single Swedish vehicle before that nation got added, only two Chinese, no Italian ground vehicles (though a bunch of air was present in the German tree), only three or so French aircraft.

[lLiberté 345]

On 11/11/2022 at 09:24, _Condottiero_ said:

Don't have high hopes for 44M, it has a very low chance to be added to WT due to a lack of information and photos, which would show complete vehicle.

Hungary can work as a subnation to Italian TT, but imo only with Romania, as Hungary won't provide almost anything ingenious  after certain brs, while Romania will.

 

 

  welp, someday then 

 

11 hours ago, Colerend said:

I dunno. Czechoslovakia and Poland could have tech trees on their own. Hungary is the only one from them all that has too little vehicles. Maybe Hungary could be a sub tree for Czechoslovakia?

 

 

  Both Czechoslovakia and Poland has the same issue, lack of unique middle tier vehicles. But as you stated addition of sub-lines may solve this issue.

[不是很能抗压 1,265]

On 16/10/2022 at 23:34, Mahiwew said:

China could easily have a load of additions at lower tiers too, gaijin simply messed up their tree early on, resulting in the massive backlash and false idea of China having nothing of worth for the game.

Viewing many replies here and i find seem that many people here forget some facts.

At first, the China in game isn's the China in really world and so do other countries, China use so many unique vehicle but unfortunately gaijin only add few of them in the past. I feel happy that them begin to correct it and I understand that there are many reason made this such as matching the 70th national day of China and so on, so they decide to release it first with many copy and repair it then by adding the unique vehicle, nowadays u can see that they are working on it though it take a long time.

Secondly, u can find many unique vehicle in Hungary and also in other countries like China, and the number of it decided by the scale of war industry in different countries. Many people here use the tree they make with almost all unique vehicle from Hungary to compare with the Chineses tree now in the game and think that Hungary has more unique than China and forhet the truth that China has one of the biggest war industry from WW2 to now.

At last, Everythings need to follow the objective law that it is no reason that China has less unique vehicle than some other countries vehicle to be added in game. It is easy to understand, if u can find many bees in a small hive, u won't find less in a bigger one. Judge something by appearances is bad, if u make a simply viewing of Chinese suggestions, u will find lots of unique design from 1.0 to top(maybe there just a few before tier 3.0) And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I agree with that If someone want Hungary to be a tree or subtree, but they think it more unique vehicles than China.  I didn't mean to offend but even the export vehivle of china provide more unique vehicles than  Hungary in both ground and air

ShanMao series(about 10), the little 3x3 car with 20mm gun, 30mm gun, atgm and so on with no copy.

VT series(about 10), vt1,vt2,vt3,vt4 which is the mbt and the light mbt vt5 with no copy.

VN series(about 30), from wheeled tank destroyer, light ifv, heavy ifv, amphibious armored vehicles, atgm carrier to spaa with no copy. 

FK series(about 5), advaced spaa with no copy.

FC series(about 5), fc1,fc31,ftc2000 which is fighter, fbc1 which is attacker with no copy.

UAV series(about 40)

And there are far more vehicles such as 59 series, 69 series, j7 series, q5 series, j10 series etc.

 

By saying so much, i only want to tell u guys that:

Suggest Hungarian tree, good.

Hungary has many unique vehicle, good.

Chinese tree has many copy now, good.

China only has copy to fill the tree, bad.

Hungary has more unique vehicles than China to fill the tree, so bad.

 

Pictrue, the model(not concept) of VN series(not all) in 2022 ZhuHai air show.

Edited November 12, 2022 by ZERO_OLYH

[Endrosey 38]

On 11/11/2022 at 23:57, PacketlossRedux said:

most likely all of these nations will be sub trees

Germany also had Italian vehicles and now have Italy in game there are Israeli vehicles in US and UK tt and now we have Israel..
the fact that there are some Czechoslovak or Polish vehicles in WT doesn't mean that there will be no Czechoslovak or Polish tt

[Endrosey 38]

On 12/11/2022 at 08:20, Dewastor said:

Both Czechoslovakia and Poland has the same issue, lack of unique middle tier vehicles. But as you stated addition of sub-lines may solve this issue.

Simply not true, while not every vehicle would be unique in tier 3-7 there are still a lot of vehicles. The whole TD, Anti air, light tank lines could be unique. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Endrosey

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

Read somewhere, that Hungarian sub tree is a possibility for the Italian TT?

Anyways,
well bringing Hungary to Italian tree, means bringing in this beauty :





as well as,

Leopard 2A7HU

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

Is there anything special about Hungarian T-72M1 compared to the in-game Finnish one? Like for example I've seen photos of Hungarian T-72M1 equipped with ERA, probably Kontakt-1, maybe smth else?

[atta26hu 108]

On 28/12/2022 at 00:27, _Condottiero_ said:

Is there anything special about Hungarian T-72M1 compared to the in-game Finnish one? Like for example I've seen photos of Hungarian T-72M1 equipped with ERA, probably Kontakt-1, maybe smth else?

 

 

Hi there, you probably mean the T-72M1 that the company HM CURRUS Zrt. upgraded.

 

 

The tank was shown in the 1999 C+D exhibit.

 

 

 

 

Here you can see the things that was changed, only one prototype was built / upgraded.

 

 

 

Now the other T-72M1s are the same as the finnish ones.

Edited January 21, 2023 by atta26hu