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mKPz M47G (MTU): One Last Effort


Zombificus
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52 members have voted

  1. 1. Would You Like This Tank?

    • Yes
      43
    • No
      7
    • Maybe / I Don't Know
      2
  2. 2. If Added, What BR Should It Be? (Bear In Mind The Weaker Engine)

    • 6.7 (Same As Panther II)
      4
    • 7.0 (Same As M46)
      15
    • 7.3 (Same As M47 G)
      23
    • I Don't Know / Don't Mind
      4
    • Other (Please Comment)
      0
    • I Don't Want It
      6
  3. 3. If Added, How Should It Be Available To Players?

    • Researchable
      34
    • Premium
      2
    • Event / Tournament
      5
    • Squadron Reward
      2
    • I Don't Know / Don't Mind
      3
    • Other (Please Comment)
      0
    • I Don't Want It
      6
  4. 4. If Added, What Should It Be Called?

    • M47 G (MTU)
      16
    • M47 G (Daimler-Benz)
      7
    • M47 G (MB 837A)
      6
    • Other (Please Comment)
      1
    • I Don't Know / I Don't Mind
      16
    • I Voted "No" Before
      6


The mKPz M47 G was the designation for the American M47 Patton II main battle tank in German service. Germany was one of the biggest users of the type, after Italy and Turkey, and operated their M47s for much longer than the US did before replacing them, as the Americans did, with the superior M48 Patton III. Prior to their replacement, however, some thought was given to modernising the tank for further service, which Italy and France also looked into. Compared to the more drastic upgunning to 105mm guns done by their European allies, the Germans made a fairly minor change by replacing the original 810hp Continental  AV-1790-5B V12 with a Daimler-Benz / MTU (Daimler-Benz was part of MTU) MB837A multifuel V-8 engine, which gave between 600 and 700hp depending on the variant. Most sources cite 600hp for the engine used in the mKPz M47 G testbed, which would indicate it was the very early version used in the Swiss Panzer 58 pre-series vehicles, replaced on the production Panzer 61 with a 630hp version, and again on the derivative Panzer 68 with a 660hp model. As the Panzer 61 was only delivered from 1965 onwards, and the Bundeswehr's mKPz M47 Gs were all retired in the early 1960s, the timeline would seem to support the Panzer 58's 600hp engine as being the one used for this experimental conversion. This is a noticeable decrease in horsepower over the original M47 powerplant, providing just under 3/4 of the Continental V12's power. Despite the new engine weighing 650kg less, this didn't stop its reduced power output from dropping the power-to-weight ratio from 17.6 hp/t to a mere 13.8 hp/t. Clearly the Bundeswehr were looking for advantages in other areas, perhaps in fuel consumption or by taking advantage of the MB837A being a multi-fuel engine rather than strictly gasoline. Since the tanks were being pressed into more of an improvised tank destroyer role towards the end of their service, raw power was likely a lower priority. In any case, the Bundeswehr decided not to go ahead with more conversions in the face of the M47 Gs' imminent replacement by M48 MBTs and Raketenjagdpanzer ATGM carriers. Only one was ever converted, which seems not to have been photographed, and it's probable that the sole testbed was returned to standard configuration after the program's cancellation. Most of the Bundeswehr's M47s were exported to Turkey after retirement, and if returned to its original state it's quite likely the test vehicle would have been among them. 

 

Its Place In War Thunder:

 

With the Panther II removed from general research and only playable for players who already had it, like myself, the German medium tank line jumps from the Panther F at BR 6.0 all the way to the mKPz M48A2 C at the truly perplexing BR of 7.0. The M48's BR makes no sense, since the other M48s and the much weaker M47s are BR 7.3, and it also doesn't make for a very smooth transition from the wartime Panthers. The M48s and Panthers play very differently: whereas the later Panthers are only strong on the front glacis, the M48's turret and hull are both very strong even at 7.3, lending it more of a heavy tank playstyle than the Panthers' constant strategy of front-towards-enemy at all costs. The M47 is more similar to the Panthers, being a mobile medium tank with decent armament and an armour layout that's weak on the sides but can bounce some shots to the front. Compared to the Panther II we used to have in the tree, the M47's larger 90mm is similar to the Panther II's long 88mm, losing out on normal penetration but gaining the advantage of high-penetration HEAT as its best round; its armour is almost identical, being just 1mm more on both the turret and hull front; and their mobility is also comparable, with the Panther II being 5 kph faster forwards but the same amount slower in reverse. The M47's similarities to both Panther II and the M46 Patton would lend it well to the 7.0 BR slot the M48A2 C currently occupies, and would have been the ideal vehicle to transition from WWII German tanks to the Bundeswehr's postwar US imports. Unfortunately, the M47 G was added as a premium instead, but I believe the experimental conversion could still be added to the tree in the spot the production version could have filled. Although it's only a prototype, it wouldn't work as a premium or event vehicle because it's essentially just a slightly worse version of the existing premium, whereas there is IMO a genuine need for a tank like it in the tree. For one, it's actually a unique German version, and additionally its much-reduced horsepower might help it get a BR closer to the Panther II's old place at 6.7 or 7.0, and therefore allow it to fulfil some of the same role. To reduce the grind, the M48A2 C could be tabbed after the M47 G (MB837A), so that the German tree got all the benefits of having the tank in the tree without slowing down players' progress to more advanced tanks. 

 

I hope you like this tank, and I look forward to reading your comments!

 

Specifications (mKPz M47 G Experimental Conversion):

 

M47_Patton_II_-_Dresden.jpg

 

Length: 8.51m

Width: 3.51m

Height: 3.35m

Weight: 43.45t (new engine weighs 650kg less)

Crew: 5 (Commander, Gunner, Loader, Driver, Co-Driver)

Primary Armament: 90mm M36 cannon (71 rounds)

Secondary Armament: 1x 12.7mm Browning M2HB (AA mount); 2x 7.62mm M1919A4 (turret coaxial & hull ball mount)

Hull Armour: 101.6mm upper glacis, 76.2mm lower glacis, 63.5mm sides, 76.2mm rear

Turret Armour: 101.6-120mm front, 76.2mm sides, 50.8mm rear

Max Speed: 30.625 mph (49 kph) forwards, 12.5 mph (20 kph) backwards

Engine: Daimler-Benz / MTU MB837A multifuel V8 engine (600 hp)

P/W Ratio: 13.8 hp/t

Smoke: 8x smoke grenades

 

Specifications (Daimler-Benz / MTU MB837A):

mtu mb 837-mtu mb 837-MTU engine|diesel engine |MTU spare parts | engine  parts-【SCDC】

Type: 90 degree V-form 8-cylinder multifuel engine
Operation: Four-stroke precombustion chamber process with mechanical supercharger
Capacity: 29,900 cm3
Effective Output: 460-483 KW
Max Torque: 2206 NM at 1750/min
P/W Ratio: 11 KW/t
Idle RPM: 600-630
Cooling Type: water-cooled (115 litres)
Rotation Direction: Counterclockwise
Mass: 1550 kg
Maximum Length (Including Drive Coupling): 1360 mm
Maximum Width: 1060 mm
Maximum Height: 1096 mm

 

Sources:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M47_(Kampfpanzer) (Source in German; the English page has a shorter section on M47 variants, with less of them covered)

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/category/cold-war-west-german-prototypes/ (See the section on the proposed Porsche Indien-Panzer, under Design, for the relevant reference to the M47 conversion)
http://www.scdc-engine.com/diesel_engine/MTU/MTUengine/18259.html (Source on the engine)

https://army-guide.com/eng/product1496.html (Source on a variant of the engine)

(Sources to support claims on other uses of the engine:)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_58

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_61

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_68

  • Upvote 2
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  • 8 months later...
  • 11 months later...

So I was poking around in R.P. Hunnicutt's Patton: A History of the American Main Battle Tank and I came across a paragraph that mentioned an M47G with an MTU MB-837 Ea-500 engine. I'm not certain if this is the same vehicle this suggestion is referring to, but I haven't heard of any other M47G upgraded by MTU.

WHuc87z.png

 

 

On 03/11/2020 at 20:47, Zombificus said:

Only one was ever converted, which seems not to have been photographed

Edit: Poked around a bit more and found pictures of the MTU modified M47.

aAGIYWX.png

Edited by DMYEugen
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