Spawn camping

[Caralampio 90]

I know this must have been discussed before, but I'm new so... Can't something be done about spawn campers?  I mean like in BAN. Or maybe create a safety zone above spawns where enemies can't enter. They truly ruin the game for the rest of us. Having to dive like crazy each time you spawn because there's a fox in the coop (camper in the spawn) can really put a block on what you were planning to do that maybe required high altitude.

These guys are not simply using a tactic. They are highly unethical gamers, which is noted by them leaving the game immediately when someone at last manages to shoot them down (after they get 15, 20, 25 kills). They are not in there for the sport, they are simply farming, probably with some economic interest. There are some notorious clans which dedicate themselves almost exclusively to camping. You very rarely see them on the map doing something else. They usually come in squads and immediately take a grip upon the opposing spawn, like Japanese hornets assaulting a beehive. Almost always they use Re 2001's or Bf 109 F4's.

Please Gaijin should at least consider the problem.

[Josephs_Piano 7,044]

Spawn camping is not illegal, so there cannot be any sort of ban - and reporting them does nothing because it is not illegal.

 

Changing the game to provide some spawn protection is probably a good idea - maybe they are working on that - there have been systems in the past such as safe zones.  But they are not telling us anything about any such work at the moment AFAIK.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Josephs_Piano

[Lexing_ 241]

1 hour ago, Caralampio said:

I know this must have been discussed before, but I'm new so... Can't something be done about spawn campers?  I mean like in BAN. Or maybe create a safety zone above spawns where enemies can't enter. They truly ruin the game for the rest of us. Having to dive like crazy each time you spawn because there's a fox in the coop (camper in the spawn) can really put a block on what you were planning to do that maybe required high altitude.

These guys are not simply using a tactic. They are highly unethical gamers, which is noted by them leaving the game immediately when someone at last manages to shoot them down (after they get 15, 20, 25 kills). They are not in there for the sport, they are simply farming, probably with some economic interest. There are some notorious clans which dedicate themselves almost exclusively to camping. You very rarely see them on the map doing something else. They usually come in squads and immediately take a grip upon the opposing spawn, like Japanese hornets assaulting a beehive. Almost always they use Re 2001's or Bf 109 F4's.

Please Gaijin should at least consider the problem.

Then don't lose altitude. Climb, learn to dogfight, learn to avoid headons, etc etc etc. Spawn camping happens because of a very specific reason: Ground focused objectives. What camping the spawn does is it prevents opponents from getting down to the ground and killing tanks/pillboxes, hence why it usually is far less effective in Airfield Domination matches. It also forces the opponents into either completely giving up high altitude which allows friendly bombers to come rolling through, or forces the opponents to continue trying to regain air superiority, which depletes the opposing team. 

 

Regarding sport, this is a war game. No one is obligated to give you any chance at all. If you are here for the fairness/sport of it you are at the wrong place. No one with a brain will ever give you a second chance to kill them if they can help it. I know this just sounds like "git gud hurr durr" but it really is about that issue. Secure altitude dominance (altitude advantage alone is not enough, you have to exploit, almost abuse it, and know how to use your energy to your advantage) and your team will not be spawn camped. 

[Josephs_Piano 7,044]

17 minutes ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Then don't lose altitude. Climb, learn to dogfight, learn to avoid headons, etc etc etc. Spawn camping happens because of a very specific reason: Ground focused objectives. What camping the spawn does is it prevents opponents from getting down to the ground and killing tanks/pillboxes,

 

huh??

 

this is exactly wrong in arcade.

 

What you do is dive away ASAP and go kill ground - because you an't spawn camp at low altitude - if they follow you then you've sucked them into not spawn camping, and if they don't follow you then you go kill ground and win the game! (hopefully!)

 

Trying to dogfight spawn campers already above you is foolish in the extreme!

 

17 minutes ago, ____Lexing____ said:

hence why it usually is far less effective in Airfield Domination matches.

 

it is still very effective in air dom games - few people try it because there's a furball right in the middle of the map and no hills or anything obscuring it - but there's usually someone spawn camping in these games too.

[SeeYouAtTheSpawn 3]

1 hour ago, ____Lexing____ said:

Climb, learn to dogfight

I dont think Lexing meant just dogfighting spawncampers, he meant it as a general statement 

[rickZ 2]

Shun the camping nonbelievers

[Lexing_ 241]

3 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

huh??

 

this is exactly wrong in arcade.

 

What you do is dive away ASAP and go kill ground - because you an't spawn camp at low altitude - if they follow you then you've sucked them into not spawn camping, and if they don't follow you then you go kill ground and win the game! (hopefully!)

 

Trying to dogfight spawn campers already above you is foolish in the extreme!

Yes, that is what you are supposed to do. But with how angry people get after you kill them there usually is a sizable portion of the enemy team climbing upwards towards the camper instead of focusing on ground objectives.

[willcliff 116]

8 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

because you an't spawn camp at low altitude

a select few players are actually good enough to do this

[FORNAX_USA 71]

Did we really need to start a new thread about this? Why not just add to the existing one?

Edited November 6, 2020 by KentuckyKillaRUS

[Caralampio 90]

Well spawn camping may be legal but in other MMO's it isn't or at least they try to take some real measure to protect newly spawned players. 

With these campers frequently what happens is that you fade in, begin to take your bearing and pop! ten seconds later you're dead. No time to react or anything. And one shotted to boot. With your next airplane if you have it, you just dive. Dive for your life. So all you have left to do is crawl over the deck. 

They could have a no-fly zone right above the spawn at that altitude and to a level above (so battles can still go on below and really high above) with enough diameter that would prevent yoyo tactics over the spawn. Of the "return to the battlefield" type. 

What is surprising too is how fast they get there. Even with spaded, good airplanes it seems a bit unbelievable.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Caralampio
fix an error

[Caralampio 90]

My mistake to start a new thread. I just found another that is much more interesting. So will end this one.

However, I would like to close with a quote from Kosher Locust in that other thread, which reflects pretty much what I want to say and better.

 

Quote [When I play I'm usually in the top third of my team and get "Terror of the Sky" fairly often, but like everyone else has bad days.  When you see at the higher ranks it gets pretty democratic that everyone is 4-6 kills for 2-4 deaths you can tell you're playing with about equally skilled players. My best ever games in the low BR were 16 kills, while at the 5-6 BR it's about 13 kills.  So awards like "Hero of the Sky" are uncommon and when it happens I feel like I bleeping earned it.  It comes to how fast you down other planes, namely in going out into the field, getting a target, and zapping him before he zaps you, and preferably getting a couple before you go down.  I have met a few players who really are the gaming Gods who get 10 kills on one plane in the furball fairly often (I had one very lucky day where I got 8, so I guess I'm the guy who scored 4 touchdowns in high school football).

 

What keeps a player from really soaring is ping, how well the other side is organized, what planes are competing against each other, and and lastly their one on one skill. If you're playing against people who have a bad ping and your shots are missing as they warp in and out of space time (the aiming indicator jitters or spontaneously lengthens or shortens) or they're talking to each other and fighting in a group it's a challenge to say the least. If you're a good pilot in an SBD-3, well you're chances aren't great.

 

So that's how the game runs normally, then along comes the camper.  It's one excuse after another with them as they loiter over--someone should have countered them by rising high and waiting, the other team--all people who don't know each other, just got put into the same side--should have organized to fight him, and so on.  They set the terms of the match where the only thing that has a chance against them is an equally fast turning plane with lots of guns.  So forget bombers, attackers, or twin engine fighters. 

 

And the real meat of it, with enemies appearing all around them who barely have to time to react or vainly try to nose up and lose speed hoping to get at least a few shots in, it's just pop-pop-pop the entire match.  The scoring system set up for real combat gets upset and they get the rewards and wining score every time and get addicted to it. This is the same behavior I saw in the COD games that eventually drove me away from them, whether broken mechanics like quickscoping or lag compensation, outright cheating with aimbots and texture replacements, or subtle cheats like an auto-knife or auto-fire on target. 

 

There's also some psychological things going on; they convince themselves they're playing fairly but are on levels a few magnitudes of order higher than other players so ergo worship at their feet.  They also dish out venom but play victim--collecting screenshots of the "hate" they get and acting like the other players have the problem.  Well there is a problem, what the spawncamper is doing.  Honestly if they have to stoop to this level to define themselves as somebody important, it's extreme immaturity and just plain sad.  

 

Gaijin just needs to wake up and fix this.]

[AmigaForever 97]

 Some games are using the method making spawned unit immortal for few minutes, maybe this would solve the problem; the plane  that spawned can escape or in some cases kill the spawn killer using frontal attack.

[anyuser 5,136]

For sure not "minutes".

Not in a game where you need less then a min to the fighting zone.

 

And as a small reminder. Warthunder does give you that kind of spawn protection for up to 15 or 20s afaik. Depends if your PC does load the assets fast enough that you are in control when the server spawns you.

You will break the protection by shooting though.

Guess what most people do when spawning and seeing somebody fighting above their spawn? Nose up and "brrrrrrt", killing their own spawn protection.

[Caralampio 90]

You get ten seconds. Which is enough (usually but not always) to dive and get away, if you are aware of the threat. But doesn't resolve the problem itself, which is the campers.

After looking at the problem, I've accepted that, well, it's just something we have to live with and adapt.

However it's kind of sad that people who are really good gamers, this has to be recognized, resort to such lowly ways of play. There are whole clans that dedicate themselves exclusively to spawn camp, and are proud of it. One never sees them bombing, or brawling in the furball, or whatever. Just spawn camping. If they are shot down once, they leave. I imagine because they use only one airplane, that way they can get out of the game fast and go camp in another. That's why they are commonly hated. If they played normal, they would be admired. It wouldn't cause bitterness to be shot down by them, just wow. A player who managed to shoot them down would feel really good, like he achieved something very difficult. But maybe this is what scares the **** out of them: That a newbie might get lucky and score. That would tarnish their evil reputation.

I think, don't they get bored? It isn't very exciting what they do, if you analyze it. Unless killing hapless players below them is what gives them their rush. Like clubbing baby seals or drowning kittens.

9 hours ago, AmigaForever said:

 Some games are using the method making spawned unit immortal for few minutes, maybe this would solve the problem; the plane  that spawned can escape or in some cases kill the spawn killer using frontal attack.

 

[Lexing_ 241]

42 minutes ago, Caralampio said:

You get ten seconds. Which is enough (usually but not always) to dive and get away, if you are aware of the threat. But doesn't resolve the problem itself, which is the campers.

After looking at the problem, I've accepted that, well, it's just something we have to live with and adapt.

However it's kind of sad that people who are really good gamers, this has to be recognized, resort to such lowly ways of play. There are whole clans that dedicate themselves exclusively to spawn camp, and are proud of it. One never sees them bombing, or brawling in the furball, or whatever. Just spawn camping. If they are shot down once, they leave. I imagine because they use only one airplane, that way they can get out of the game fast and go camp in another. That's why they are commonly hated. If they played normal, they would be admired. It wouldn't cause bitterness to be shot down by them, just wow. A player who managed to shoot them down would feel really good, like he achieved something very difficult. But maybe this is what scares the **** out of them: That a newbie might get lucky and score. That would tarnish their evil reputation.

I think, don't they get bored? It isn't very exciting what they do, if you analyze it. Unless killing hapless players below them is what gives them their rush. Like clubbing baby seals or drowning kittens.

10 seconds is literally an eternity in aerial combat. I challenge you to 1v1 someone after giving them a 10 second advantage. And if the few minutes were implemented then we'd destroy the mode because guess what it takes jets two minutes to get to the first opponent in a 64x64km map. And you can usually find a target and engage within the first minute even in low tier. So no, it would not work. The current time of spawn protection is enough for you to avoid campers. 

10 hours ago, AmigaForever said:

 Some games are using the method making spawned unit immortal for few minutes, maybe this would solve the problem; the plane  that spawned can escape or in some cases kill the spawn killer using frontal attack.

It wouldn't; it would just make controlling the air near the airfield impossible because you literally cannot shoot someone down. Let's say you implement 2 minutes. The average arcade game ends in 12 minutes. That means that someone who dies instantly after losing their spawn protection is going to have 12 minutes of immunity from any kind of damage. That isn't fair nor balanced because there are plenty of bombers with cannons that shred hostile bombers, that can just hunt bombers without any fear of being shot at because guess what they have complete immortality. In other words, you are rewarding people dying while punishing people for staying alive. 


Some advice here; You do not escort the bombers by individually killing fighters, nor do you kill individual bombers to stop the ticket bleed. You go for the spawn when they are all inside, just like how you'd smoke out a beehive. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by ____Lexing____

[willcliff 116]

If you can't control altitude from the beginning, that's your fault.

If you can't be bothered to look around upon spawning, that's your fault.

If you helicopter straight up to enemies after spawning, that's your fault.

If you die in the first place, that's your fault.

If you complain in all chat about enemies in the spawn but can't be bothered to try for altitude, that's your fault.

 

Don't want to learn from the best players because they 'play unfair'? Not their problem.

 

I have been spawn camped many times, especially when I was newer. Was I angry? Sure, it sucks getting killed so quick. Did I complain? No, because I recognized that the campers were simply taking advantage of a game mechanic that is the most efficient way to rack up kills without dying. So, I learned from the best pilots, and improved significantly, to the point where most people who would want to spawnkill me I can simply take care of. I would recommend learning how to be a good pilot (very useful), instead of complaining on the forums. There might be some fun arguments, but nothing is going to happen.

[Lexing_ 241]

4 hours ago, willcliff said:

If you can't control altitude from the beginning, that's your fault.

If you can't be bothered to look around upon spawning, that's your fault.

If you helicopter straight up to enemies after spawning, that's your fault.

If you die in the first place, that's your fault.

If you complain in all chat about enemies in the spawn but can't be bothered to try for altitude, that's your fault.

 

Don't want to learn from the best players because they 'play unfair'? Not their problem.

 

I have been spawn camped many times, especially when I was newer. Was I angry? Sure, it sucks getting killed so quick. Did I complain? No, because I recognized that the campers were simply taking advantage of a game mechanic that is the most efficient way to rack up kills without dying. So, I learned from the best pilots, and improved significantly, to the point where most people who would want to spawnkill me I can simply take care of. I would recommend learning how to be a good pilot (very useful), instead of complaining on the forums. There might be some fun arguments, but nothing is going to happen.

I'll add to this with a quote from General Chuck Horner, commander of Desert Shield, in Every Man a Tiger, his account of the Gulf War air campaign written alongside Tom Clancy:

"Wise, old fighter pilots look for an early, easy kill, relying on experience and knowledge; and they don't play fair. They pick a weak one from the pack they're fighting, go for a quick kill, and then blow through the fight" (Horner 46).

[Maj_Fox@psn 521]

20 hours ago, willcliff said:

 

...campers were simply taking advantage of a game mechanic that is the most efficient way to rack up kills without dying.

 

 

Thank you willcliff.

 

I think that sums up campers and camping, why many players use it and why many players dislike it.

 

Cheers

[willcliff 116]

Exactly. Its not cheating or abuse, It's just a way to play the game.

[Maj_Fox@psn 521]

16 hours ago, willcliff said:

Exactly. Its not cheating or abuse, It's just a way to play the game.

 

I agree, but the issue I have is. Is it fair?

 

Is it fair for one player to have an advantage over another due to a game mechanic?

 

Personally, I don't think it's fair. It spoils the game for me to the point where I don't spawn a second plane.

 

Cheers

[Lexing_ 241]

8 hours ago, Maj_Fox@psn said:

I agree, but the issue I have is. Is it fair?

 

Is it fair for one player to have an advantage over another due to a game mechanic?

 

Personally, I don't think it's fair. It spoils the game for me to the point where I don't spawn a second plane.

 

Cheers

Theoretically you could apply this to many game mechanics. Is it fair for bombers to have AI gunners? No. But is it necessary? I personally think yes. You cannot expect someone to dodge while shooting back at their pursuer while trying to aim their bombs. That's one of the most difficult things to do in the game, let alone master. Is it fair for all objectives to be ground based in ground strike? No. Is it necessary? Yes, because attackers need a way to influence the outcome of the match. My personal take on spawn camping is, I will never play fair because I play this game as a fighter. Playing fair is for the duelists, and I respect that, but you have to realize that in a fighter to play fair is to lose. 

[MaryJaneMinded@psn 10]

9 hours ago, ____Lexing____ said:

, I will never play fair because I play this game as a fighter. Playing fair is for the duelists, and I respect that, but you have to realize that in a fighter to play fair is to lose. 

I get where you are coming from the problem being that every one has that mentality and it ruins the game for the less experienced player pushing away newcomers almost made me stop playing but im stubborn enough to persisit

[Lexing_ 241]

14 hours ago, MaryJaneMinded@psn said:

I get where you are coming from the problem being that every one has that mentality and it ruins the game for the less experienced player pushing away newcomers almost made me stop playing but im stubborn enough to persisit

If everyone has that mentality then everyone would be playing in tournaments. I'm not accountable for the experience newcomers have, that's their own responsibility. You are going to have fun only if you learn not to get seal clubbed.

[_MoNtaNa_ 928]

Spawncamping ruining the game, yes.......ofcourse and my name is Michael jackson. The problem dosen´t exist, if your team is so bad, that a single player or a Squad is able to xxxx a whole team that consists of 12 or more players until they get 20 kills, it is your own fault. The people at the spawn are mostly always outnumbered and there are very easy counters for it. Still people constantly complain about it wich is hilarious at this point. If you get spawn camped and die consistantly from it you are just simply a very bad gamer.

[leadbutter 3]

We just had two guys in our spawn flying those op'd Swedish fighters. Anyone that came out didn't stand a chance. 

They would dive on us, shoot us down and climb back to where we couldn't get at them. 

Some people here are calling that fair? Probably spawn campers themselves. 

We finally got one guy, and to prove how cowardly a move camping is, the other guy took off for his spawn.

I won't say his name here but I will be looking for him.