standard tree North American F-6 under French colors

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

North American F-6 under French colors

 

Disclaimers:

As a French myself, I know the bad situation for the French trees and the fact they lack a lot of indigenous stuff. So yes, another American plane suggested to the French tech tree, but consider it could be a potential add when more indigenous aircraft would have been added. Otherwise, it could be a unique Mustang variant if the implemented version is the F-6C with Malcon Hood cockpit, and I'm personally voting for this version.

 

F-6s in French service during World War 2:

On January 1, 1945, the 2nd squadron of the Group became Groupe de Reconnaissance II/33 Savoie (Recon Group II/33 "Savoie"), while the 1st squadron became Groupe de Reconnaissance I/33 Belfort (Recon Group I/33 "Belfort"). These two groups are subordinate to the 33 ème Escadre de Reconnaissance (33rd Reconnaissance Wing). The group was flying on Spitfire and started to get F-6s on January 14 1945. This new mount will gradually replace the Spitfires, the last copies of which were donated on February 26, 1945. Later after the end of the  the start of 1954, the group took the name of the Escadron de Reconnaissance Tactique 2/33 Savoie (Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron 2/33 "Savoie"), equipping itself with Republic F-84F in the 1950s. From 1957, he was stationed in Federal Republic of Germany, at Lahr-Hugsweier, then joined Strasbourg in 1960. The handover on Mirage IIIR started in 1965, two years after the Escadron de Reconnaissance 3/33 Moselle (Reconnaissance Wing 3/33 "Moselle").

 

Photos (click to zoom):

Spoiler

F-6C:

 

F-6C (with Malcon Hood cockpit):

⏏️ In French service, picture taken at Fribourg 1950.

 

F-6D:

Overall looks:

⏏️ Summary of the different F-6s under French colors.

⏏️ Family picture of Recon Group II/3 "Savoie" (Savoy) Mustangs aside the airstrip.

 

Decals:

Spoiler

 

 

⏏️ French F-6Ds B, X and U, flying in formation.

⏏️ Savoy region emblem displayed on the tail.

⏏️ Btw the Recon Group emblem (already in the game), displayed under the cockpit.

⏏️ Modern version of the squadron logo, mixing the Savoy emblem and the seadull on the tail of a Mirage IIIR.

 

Characteristics:

Three kind of F-6s were used in Recon Groupe II/3:

1. F-6C-10-NT ;
2. F-6C-10-NT with Malcom Hood cockpit ;

3. F-6D-20-NT ;

As F-6s are recon purposed planes, they were armed to defend theirself in case of hostile encounters, but can't transport bombs or rockets. There is the source that certify those recon Mustangs were armed with operationnal MGS, and not equipped with dummy Brownings:

Spoiler

⏏️ "Unlike the reconnaissance P-38s, the reconnaissance Mustang stays armed which gives it a self-defense capacity which can also be very useful [...]".

Extract from the book RETOUR SUR 33 - La 33 ème escadre de reconnaissance , p. 1529

 

F-6C(-10-NT) without or with Malcolm Hood Cockpit:

Spoiler

Performances are the same as for the ingame US P-51C-10:

 

General characteristics:

• Crew: 1 member ;
• Take-off weight: 5.09 t ;
• Burst mass: 2.16 kg/s ;

 

Flight characteristics:

• Ceiling: 12,800 m ;
• Engine: Packard V-1650-7 ;
• Type: Inline ;
• Cooling system: Water ;

 

Offensive armament:

• 2*2 0.50 cal machineguns with 1,200 rounds at a rate of fire of 750 shots/min ;

Suspended armament:

• No external armament ;

 

About the recon cameras:

As F-6s were recon (and armed) P-51s, they were equipped with recon cameras.

 

Some pictures:

Spoiler

⏏️ First we can find a recon camera behind the pilot seat, at the rear of the cockpit. It was oriented to the left of the plane.

⏏️ A second camera was also located before the tail wheel of the plane.

⏏️ As you can see, there isn't any camera on the right side.

 

About the Malcolm Hood cockpit:

The Malcolm Hood is a type of aircraft canopy originally developed for the Supermarine Spitfire. Its concept proved valuable for other aircraft such as the North American Aviation-produced P-51B & C Mustangs as retrofit items, and standard on later versions of the Vought F4U Corsair, and somewhat emulated on the later models of the Luftwaffe's Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighter.

 

Some pictures:

Spoiler

⏏️ Profiles showing the differences between Malcom Hood canopy and other ones.

⏏️ Rear view on a Spitfire also showing the outside rearview mirror.

⏏️ US P-51Cs equipped with the Malcolm Hood cockpit.

 

 

F-6D(-20-NT/NA):

Spoiler

Performances are the same as for the ingame US P-51D-20-NA:

 

G eneral characteristics:

• Crew: 1 member ;
• Take-off weight: 5.10 t ;
• Burst mass: 3.33 kg/s ;

 

Flight characteristics:

• Ceiling: 12,800 m ;
• Engine: Packard V-1650-7 ;
• Type: Inline ;
• Cooling system: Water ;

 

Offensive armament:

• 2*3 0.50 cal machineguns with 2,080 rounds and a rate of fire of  768 shots/min ;

Suspended armament:

• No external armament ;

 

About the recon cameras:

As F-6s were recon (and armed) P-51s, they were equipped with recon cameras.

 

Some pictures:

Spoiler

⏏️ About the F-6Ds, the rear cockpit camera disappears, and there now 3 cameras located before the tail wheel: two on the left side, and one at the bottom. There isn't any camera on the right side of the plane.

 

 

Sources:

Wikipedia

Photographies from this private collection

RETOUR SUR 33 - La 33 ème escadre de reconnaissance, PATRICK EHRHARDT, 1997 (book)

 

Suggestion made with the help of @VoltigeurFR.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Synthjaeger

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

9 minutes ago, leroyonly said:

Open for discussion. 

Thanks Leroy!

[Gen_Victory 53]

So hyped !

It would be interesting to have the F-6C-10-NT with Malcon Hood cockpit ! 

[DoxerWhite@psn 82]

No -1.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Do you have any source for their armament? I researched French F-6s a bit to see if it was possible to see them in game, but I never found mentions of their armament, and all I’ve found is they were converted from regular P-51Ds to reconnaissance which would explain imo why they kept the cannon holes. They were received around the same time as recon P-38s which were known to be unarmed. It would seem weird to me if they kept the cannons, even for self defense, when they probably wanted to be as light as possible for long reconnaissance runs. 

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

1 hour ago, Cedjoe said:

Do you have any source for their armament? I researched French F-6s a bit to see if it was possible to see them in game, but I never found mentions of their armament, and all I’ve found is they were converted from regular P-51Ds to reconnaissance which would explain imo why they kept the cannon holes. They were received around the same time as recon P-38s which were known to be unarmed. It would seem weird to me if they kept the cannons, even for self defense, when they probably wanted to be as light as possible for long reconnaissance runs. 

Good point, but post-war pictures show them (both C and D) without the weapons & holes.

I'm looking for sources, but I don't understand why giving the weaponry without ammunitions, especially during wartime.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Synthjaeger

[Cedjoe 5,482]

1 hour ago, Synthjaeger said:

Good point, but post-war pictures show them (both C and D) without the weapons & holes.

I'm looking for sources, but I don't understand why giving the weaponry without ammunitions, especially during wartime.

But there's no source stating they were given weapons, unless you have one, which I'd be glad to see. The only thing I've read so far is that the first ones received were old P-51Ds converted for reconnaissance hence the gun holes still being present.The last batches were built as reconnaissance planes from the start it is expected that they would have no gun holes.

Keep in mind reconnaissance aircraft were usually stripped from most equipment not related to reconnaissance so they could have better performance to either avoid fights, or stay longer in mission in case there is no threat.

 

edit : To me it clearly looks stuffy

Edited December 7, 2020 by Cedjoe

[Gen_Victory 53]

1 hour ago, Cedjoe said:

But there's no source stating they were given weapons, unless you have one, which I'd be glad to see. The only thing I've read so far is that the first ones received were old P-51Ds converted for reconnaissance hence the gun holes still being present.The last batches were built as reconnaissance planes from the start it is expected that they would have no gun holes.

Keep in mind reconnaissance aircraft were usually stripped from most equipment not related to reconnaissance so they could have better performance to either avoid fights, or stay longer in mission in case there is no threat.

 

edit : To me it clearly looks stuffy

It might not be really the topic here, but do you have any documents proving that the Ho 229 V3 had 2 x 30mm ?
Also, even if it was used as a reconnaissance plane, it is still a fighter shaped plane.
If people want to see it flying and shooting in the game, let it be. 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Just now, TheFrenchFalcon said:

It might not be really the topic here, but do you have any documents proving that the Ho 229 V3 had 2 x 30mm ?
Also, even if it was used as a reconnaissance plane, it is still a fighter shaped plane.
If people want to see it flying and shooting in the game, let it be. 

The Ho 223 in game is a representation of what it would’ve been if it was used in combat, and it was planned to receive cannons. The F-6 was intended to be used as a reconnaissance plane by France and was never planned to use cannons AFAIK, and it would be unrealistic to give it cannons if it never had or was never intended to have any in French service.

Again, if you guys have sources for the MGs, I would be more than happy to see a French P-51 in game, but if we unrealistically give it guns just to have one in the tree, I’d rather go play a US or Swedish P-51 for exemple that were used as fighters and not reconnaissance. That would be like giving the Etendard IVP guns even though it never carried any. If we started adding these, it would open the door to many additions that I would rather not see, such as a french P-38 which were only ever used as reconnaissance for sure.

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

@Cedjoe enjoy:

Spoiler

 

No dummy MGs or else, only true M2 Brownings here!

Edited December 7, 2020 by Synthjaeger

[VoltigeurFR 108]

3 minutes ago, Synthjaeger said:

@Cedjoe enjoy:

Hide contents

 

PAF 

+1

 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

26 minutes ago, Synthjaeger said:

@Cedjoe enjoy:

Hide contents

 

No dummy MGs or else, only true M2 Brownings here!

Good to hear 

It wasn’t that hard was it? You could’ve added it in the post from the beginning so there would be no confusion 

Do you know the name of the book by any chance?

Also, are you sure all versions you listed had cannons?

 

Edit : Now you have my vote 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Cedjoe

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

Just now, Cedjoe said:

It wasn’t that hard was it? You could’ve added it in the post from the beginning so there would be no confusion

If I've had the source since the start, I would have just added it. I'm not here to confuse peoples or else.

 

3 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Do you know the name of the book by any chance?

Read, it's written.

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

10 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Now you have my vote

I'm glad to hear!

[Cedjoe 5,482]

8 minutes ago, Synthjaeger said:

If I've had the source since the start, I would have just added it. I'm not here to confuse peoples or else.

I’m not saying you were trying to confuse anyone 

8 minutes ago, Synthjaeger said:

Read, it's written.

Oh didn’t notice you added it to the suggestion.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Cedjoe

[Milocat 4,857]

+1 from me, this would be a great addition to the French air tree and I'm delighted to learn about a new P-51 variant I hadn't heard of before!

[Abaddon75 460]

Hi nice, But the part of history about the f6 service is in fact the story of the squadron, while still interesting and nice to see here, we need more about how and what free french received as recon p51, here are some other potentialy interesting sources :

 

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/france/france.htm

Here is a page with the list :

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/documents/frenchf6list.htm

The food thing is that they use also the USAF designation, so Gaijin can found more info in US archives if necessary.

 

Also it's nice to indicate wikipedia but the english page doesn't seams to talk about the ones who were used by french, so maybe making a quick translation of the section about french service from the french page could be a good summary.

 

For me it's a +3, saddly we can't do that in your poll, maybe add an option for all of them

 

And I voted for the 4.7 cause we really need to fill up the rank 4 gap but of course the two others are welcome as well. Hope to see those alongside some P-47D-30 (basically a 28 with airbrakes) and Supermarine Spitfire Mk IX and Mk XVI one day.

[Solarmod 1,204]

-1, I'm sorry but I'd rather not see a recon mustang in game, they did remove armament, and I'm skeptical that it even had armament, despite photos. Sorry.

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

18 hours ago, Solarmod said:

-1, I'm sorry but I'd rather not see a recon mustang in game, they did remove armament, and I'm skeptical that it even had armament, despite photos. Sorry.

Facts are facts, they were armed and the armament wasn't removed. Funny how peoples refuse the truth, even when they have the clue in front of their eyes and especially when you see a mechanic reloading the MGs.

 

But still, the poll is here for that.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Synthjaeger

[VoltigeurFR 108]

18 hours ago, Solarmod said:

-1, I'm sorry but I'd rather not see a recon mustang in game, they did remove armament, and I'm skeptical that it even had armament, despite photos. Sorry.

« Contrary to the Recon Lightning, the recon mustang stays armed, which gives it special assurance of defense, which proves to be very useful for tracking an important objective »

 

but yeah, never armed, what is this guy talking about anyways, right ?

[Solarmod 1,204]

4 hours ago, VoltigeurFR said:

but yeah, never armed, what is this guy talking about anyways, right ?

I'm moreso referring to the fact that the F-6 had 2-4 .50's, instead of 6. Which I've found less effective against 4.0 aircraft using the P-51C, I can't see these planes at the same br without thinking it's a tad ridiculous. Besides, France doesn't need more US copy paste. 

[VoltigeurFR 108]

29 minutes ago, Solarmod said:

I'm moreso referring to the fact that the F-6 had 2-4 .50's, instead of 6. Which I've found less effective against 4.0 aircraft using the P-51C, I can't see these planes at the same br without thinking it's a tad ridiculous. Besides, France doesn't need more US copy paste. 

So now you’re saying it was armed ? 
 

Either way, maybe the US variants were equipped with only 2 to 4, but for the French ones, we do not know, and we may even be led to believe it retained all its MG’s. So until proven otherwise, I think it’s pertinent to assume the French one would have 6 x 12.7mm

[Sternjaeger84 1,076]

13 hours ago, Solarmod said:

I'm moreso referring to the fact that the F-6 had 2-4 .50's

You didn't read the suggestion.

 

F-6C has 4 MGs because the P-51C has 4, and F-6D has 6 MGs because the P-51D has 6.

 

That's all.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Synthjaeger

[Abaddon75 460]

1 hour ago, Solarmod said:

I'm moreso referring to the fact that the F-6 had 2-4 .50's, instead of 6. Which I've found less effective against 4.0 aircraft using the P-51C, I can't see these planes at the same br without thinking it's a tad ridiculous. Besides, France doesn't need more US copy paste. 

For the copy paste I canunderstand but in the opposit for rank 4 we have little amount of birds to add, some few design from late 30s early 40s and a bit more from late 40s and early 50s plus some more later designs that could not be added over rank 4. Most of those are prototypes and even if some of them are quite well documented, Gaijin apparently thinks it's not enough, so in the mean time of having more information about those prototypes we can give more foreign design that served in french forces. And imo at rank 4 we should see p51 p47 and Spitfires mk IX and XVI to have something to grind for. Also here we have different variants so it open also the possibilitys for events or prem or squadro in the futur. Also even if France did make a lot of design we are far from having the same amount as USA and USSR, it's like having a group of candle and try to have them burning the longest time possible but some are starting with a much shorter length, so copy paste is a way to extend a little bit the life of shorter candle. And if the short candle get ended to early, at some point we will have some updates with only USA and USSR getting stuff and we will have to wait that modern stuff for other nation get produce irl to get new things for those. It's also a way to talk about history, why should we forget about french pilots who fought on foreign aircraft? Because it's a copy paste seams quite unfaire. And I know in simulation copy paste stuff makes the game a lot more hard. But irl some fought against each other with equipment issued from the same country so we only hae to deal with it, until Gaijin found a solution to help the gameplay.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Abaddon75