Unpopular Opinion: "Spawn Camping" is YOUR fault...

[MasterBLB 3,764]

3 hours ago, Renamed248537853 said:

1 - Why do these skilled players spawncamp? After all, being skilled, they should have no problem whatsoever getting kills anywhere else on the map...

2 - Why is it more of a problem that skilled players spawncamp?

3 - Why do people generally take issue with being killed right after spawning, but not with being killed anywhere else on the map?

ad 1 - because after sweeping up all opposition on the high altitude enemy spawn is the only sure point where new planes will appear with somewhat known energy state and altitude, and we haven't fight for dominance just to give it away soon after.

ad 2 - because due to our skill we have upper hand in all types of engagement, and we can dictate terms of the fight. A skilled player is dangerous anywhere.

ad 3 - not true, as SeeYouAtTheSpawn pointed. But having butt kicked is not pleasant no matter where it happened.

 

Personally, I don't spawncamp that often, first because it bores me, and second it requires enemies willing to play that way. More often I protect my team from being spawncamped by not letting enemies to get high altitude dominance, if I'm in the mood; however due to how matchmaker works I'm often "rewarded" with flying potatoes as teammates, whose are just not worth saving.

[Renamed248537853 582]

1 hour ago, MasterBLB said:

ad 1

 

 

1 hour ago, SeeYouAtTheSpawn said:

In answer to your first question,

 

 

As clearly stated; my questions were for FrizFreleng only; this to prevent getting entangled in a discussion with multiple persons at the same time; making things unnecessarily complicated.

 

If Friz however should be uninterested/unwilling/unable to answer my questions, I will be happy to enter into a discussion...one person at a time, though...

Edited December 19, 2020 by Renamed248537853

[PARAMI 478]

@FrizFreleng is totally right. That was a really eloquent way to sum up the entire issue. 

 

I'd like to say that pointing fingers at individuals and clans and imploring them to stop their bad behavior isn't going to cut it in a video game (as there are no IRL consequences that stem from having kids break their keyboards by killing them in game over and over). The only way to "fix" this issue (I personally don't think the spawn camping in this mode isn't true camping, as you have ample room to avoid the "camper"; however, I do believe the current spawn system encourages this behavior and is a product of bad game design--the preceding posts have pretty much proven this) is to have Gaijin implement lasting changes that discourage people from doing such things. In the meantime, harping over the same problem like a broken record isn't going to go anywhere. Hopefully Gaijin decides to give enough of a damn about AB to change things up, but knowing them, they'll just focus on developing Ground RB, since that's where the money is at. I can only recommend that people learn how to deal with being camped; it's not at all difficult to counter.

 

A bit more on bad game design: most action in AB air happens in the middle of the map at ground level. However, the spawns are higher than the furball most of the time; ergo, that means that spawning planes who are diving on the furball have all the cards in their hands. Because AB maps are so small and the action is so concentrated, it's very hard to maintain an advantageous position when spawning planes all have more energy than you. Although it's definitely a valid tactic to BnZ the furball, it takes a lot of discipline and positioning to be efficient. So it's no surprise that a lot of people who want to go for big numbers or play safe naturally gravitate towards the enemy spawn; the highest planes on the map are usually there--that means that they pose the biggest threat. It doesn't help that there's only a single spawn point, which makes it very easy to predict where people will spawn and try to blindside them for free kills (this is easy to counter, but some people never learn). Therefore, it's the most "sterile" place on the map where you can be more or less in control. That's the rationale for camping, in my opinion. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by PARAMI

[V45Magna 67]

I have to admit, I agree that a 'team' has to allow this for it to happen, or just get vanquished from their own airspace so that the enemy winds up owning it. 

 

Many a single player has kept great numbers of their enemy out of the fight by hovering above the spawn though.  Either way it goes, it is a tactic that exists in game and it has to be anticipated and dealt with but not to the exclusion of attaining the objectives necessary to win.

 

Warning your team through chat is still probably the most important initial reaction.

 

[f_ritz 24]

On 12/12/2020 at 17:46, Renamed248537853 said:

I'm quite certain that Gaijin wil eventually tackle the spawncamping 'problem'. Not because they care about players not having fun, but because they will realise that it will hurt them in their wallet (i.e. a small group of spawncampers chasing away potentially money spending players).
After all; if you are a relatively new player, get tired of being spawncamped, and then realise that not only Gaijin doesn't care about spawncamping but even states that it's a perfectly valid tactic...would you be more or less inclined to give this company your hard-earned cash?

The average new player won't make the realization that Gaijin actively endorses spawn camping. Instead, new players get tired of being spawncamped and borrow their mom's credit card to buy a premium Sabre or a boatload of GE and premium time to beat all the spawncampers before realizing that's not how the matchmaking works and no amount of premium will save you from losing a dogfight (the Sabre wouldn't help them beat a camper either, given the skill level of the average Air AB player).

 

On 19/12/2020 at 04:17, Renamed248537853 said:

1 - Why do these skilled players spawncamp? After all, being skilled, they should have no problem whatsoever getting kills anywhere else on the map...

2 - Why is it more of a problem that skilled players spawncamp?

3 - Why do people generally take issue with being killed right after spawning, but not with being killed anywhere else on the map?

1 - Because it's efficient for getting kills and gives me all the advantages in a dogfight. There, I said it. I do not have a problem getting kills anywhere else on the map. The problem with furballing is that the furball is lower than the spawn altitude, therefore my opponents will have a massive energy advantage over me just by dying and respawning. Ask yourself: if you were up against a player, would you want to be at a disadvantage? Put another way, would you want to play a game of chess with your queen gone from the start?

2 - Because experienced players get more kills than Aces. There, I said it again. Anyone can climb and hover above the enemy spawn. Most hover and get a kill or two before diving to the deck after someone. Heck, I was like that in my early days of camping. It takes skill to stay alive and achieve the high kill counts that 'campers' get. Experienced players know how to use their advantages (and even their disadvantages) to the fullest. Put another way, why would it be more of a problem if an experienced player forked your queen and king? A clueless chess player won't capture your queen after the fork, therefore the fork wouldn't be as big of an issue as an experienced player that knows and intends to take your queen.

3 - Because the average Air AB jockey is very immature and lets their emotions decide their targets, making a beeline for the guy with the skull for their sweet, sweet revenge and satisfaction (I am guilty of this myself sometimes) instead of looking for threats the second they spawn in. 5000 kg truth bomb, I know. It's why I target people who repeatedly attack me, so their emotional reactions aren't the last straw on my back when I'm going 1v3 in the spawn. And that's not counting this:

On 19/12/2020 at 07:25, SeeYouAtTheSpawn said:

people do take offense at being killed not over the spawn,   this was NOT from spawncamping. 

 

Spawncamping is what you would normally do in a match, but it's taking place in the spawn instead of the furball or the side of the map. Most tactics and maneuvers that I use in the spawn I use outside it as well. It's as fair as forking a queen and king with your knight in chess: it's annoying, but it's your fault it happened. Watch your surroundings. Climb. Learn to dogfight. That's about all the advice one needs to avoid getting camped.

[Iggy_Azelea 1]

If there's a persistent spawn camper, I just leave the battle or sometimes the game if I'm particularly annoyed by it.  It's just not worth the time to dive to avoid, and then spend several minutes climbing to come back and engage.  By then, the battle is almost over.  There are more games than I have time for.

 

I've tried it a couple times.  It was easy and it worked.  I felt dirty doing it.

 

It's bad for the game.  It drives away players.  Gaijin could easily mitigate it by giving each team three spawn points or several other methods.  They either like it or just don't care.

[Lexing_ 241]

2 hours ago, Iggy_Azelea said:

If there's a persistent spawn camper, I just leave the battle or sometimes the game if I'm particularly annoyed by it.  It's just not worth the time to dive to avoid, and then spend several minutes climbing to come back and engage.  By then, the battle is almost over.  There are more games than I have time for.

 

Exactly. That is why it is efficient, because it forces the entire team down, clearing the high altitudes for bombers to come in. 

 

2 hours ago, Iggy_Azelea said:

I've tried it a couple times.  It was easy and it worked.  I felt dirty doing it.

 

Energy fighting and boom and zooming is supposed to be easy if you do it right. The point of the entire tactic historically was to put all the cards in your hand.

 

2 hours ago, Iggy_Azelea said:

It's bad for the game.  It drives away players.  Gaijin could easily mitigate it by giving each team three spawn points or several other methods.  They either like it or just don't care.

Gaijin could easily mitigate it or drive me away from doing it if they made it so I can help the team win without having to press spacebar constantly. Dom matches are the best for that exact reason. The only reason spawn camping has been popularized is because of the PvE objectives that give the win to the team with the most backups and the most bombs instead of the most skill. 

[SeeYouAtTheSpawn 3]

9 hours ago, Iggy_Azelea said:

9 hours ago, Iggy_Azelea said:

It was easy and it worked.

hmm, sure proves it with that k/d 

[FailBoatCaptain 439]

On 25/12/2020 at 02:12, V45Magna said:

I have to admit, I agree that a 'team' has to allow this for it to happen, or just get vanquished from their own airspace so that the enemy winds up owning it. 

 

Many a single player has kept great numbers of their enemy out of the fight by hovering above the spawn though.  Either way it goes, it is a tactic that exists in game and it has to be anticipated and dealt with but not to the exclusion of attaining the objectives necessary to win.

 

Warning your team through chat is still probably the most important initial reaction.

 

And the other team as well if a known spawncamper is on your team . 

 

 

On 11/12/2020 at 22:30, MasterBLB said:

You have the right attitude @Mahrs, and willing to seek roots of failure within you first instead of blaming everything abound, be it spawncampers, OPness of enemy's plane, or whatever...well mate with such attitude you're on the best way to to become a true aerial ace someday, and yellers like USSTalladega will stay at the bottom of food chain, providing us frags.

I'm not at the bottom of the food chain and my opinion on spawn campers is well known . 

[Caralampio 90]

Spawn campers are on a crusade (consciously or not) to make as many new players as they can to quit the game in disgust and never come back. When as a newbie one meets and suffers this unsportsmanslike behavior, it is enormously frustrating. It happens in many other games as well and this was the main reason for me avoiding all online multiplayer games for many years. 

My son convinced me to try this game out, I was hard to convince and when I met spawn campers I was about to quit. However, I love airplanes so I stuck on and adapted, like everyone else. If you see campers, dive. Sure; but the fact remains YOU SHOULDN'T NEED TO DO THAT. 

I'm well past the newbie stage, I suppose I could spawn camp if I set my mind to it but I won't. Actually, when I find myself above the enemy spawn for some reason, I move away and refrain from attacking newly spawned players. I don't want to be confused with that sort of people. 

Spawn campers cost Gaijin money. I wonder why they haven't noticed. There is no way of knowing how many newbies have left in disgust after being spawn-camp ****, instead of being given the chance of staying, learning the game, and spending lots of lions, eagles, gaijin coins, dollars, etc.

I firmly disagree with the OP. HIs argument is similar to those that say if a woman is ****, it's her fault for walking alone in the street at night. 

[SeeYouAtTheSpawn 3]

3 hours ago, Caralampio said:

****

 

3 hours ago, Caralampio said:

****

its a stary night tonight

[ArthurBloss 633]

Spawncamping is the product of a pilot winning the fight for altitude (or the enemy team just conceding the altitude advantage). In any case, no reason to complain. OP is totally right.

 

If spawncampers were bad pilots then one could easily energy trap them, bait for the team and lure them down to lower altitudes. Which is often not the case. Actually takes some effort to kill them. I noticed many spawncampers are gone once they lose their single 109, pyörremyrsky or whatever they fancy to fly.

 

It shouldn'd concern the furballers at all, most dive towards the middle of the map anyway to engage in as many headons as they survive.

[FORNAX_USA 71]

7 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Spawn campers are on a crusade (consciously or not) to make as many new players as they can to quit the game in disgust and never come back. 

Could this be any more dramatic? The only "crusade" that players are on above the spawn is to get as many kills as possible. The fact that you and your team failed to get an altitude advantage at the start of match is you and your own teams fault. It really is beating a dead horse with how many times that needs to be said. Do something about it at the start of the match instead of just letting people gain an altitude advantage uncontested. It isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. 

 

It really is quite amusing the amount of times posts about spawn camping keep getting made. Gaijin has clarified in the past that they have no issue with it and that its fair game.

Edited December 31, 2020 by KentuckyKillaRUS

[f_ritz 24]

13 hours ago, Caralampio said:

If you see campers, dive. Sure; but the fact remains YOU SHOULDN'T NEED TO DO THAT. 

Sure, you don't 'need' to dive away (and evade) from somebody that's trying to shoot you down. You can get shot down yourself and kill him on your next spawn.

In several of my matches, I've had at least one other 109 F-4 player target me while 'camping', often going to great lengths to get a 2km+ altitude advantage. Did I soil my pants like 'no-skill' spawncampers are stereotyped to do when challenged from above? No, I dived away, dodged their fire, and tried to force a one-on-one dogfight. I'm no duelist, but I often come out on top against these spaceclimbers in the same plane, even when starting from a disadvantage. And when I know can't win, I simply dive away under my teammates, land, and repair. Why stay in a fight you can't win?

 

Spawn 'camping' is using tactics that you would use anywhere else on the map, but near the spawn instead of the furball. Actually, that's how I got into spawncamping. When I was learning how to energy fight, I stuck to the sides of the map and practiced my tactics there. Once the sides were clear and I had control of altitude, I moved on to bombers, which lo and behold brought me to the spawn, where 109s, J21s, and P-47s would nose up without thinking twice and spray at me. What am I supposed to do, let them kill me, or fight back?

 

14 hours ago, Caralampio said:

HIs argument is similar to those that say if a woman is ****, it's her fault for walking alone in the street at night. 

Situational awareness helps in both cases. But please don't ever again compare an online war game to a crime with major consequences.

[MasterBLB 3,764]

14 hours ago, Caralampio said:

(...)being given the chance of staying, learning the game(...)

They are given the chance, however they don't pay attention to lesson "pulling nose up close to 90 degrees against an enemy with ~2km altitude advantage just simply does not work". In fact, they don't pay attention to any lessons, just yell when their arses are rightfully kicked, and refuse to learn.

[anyuser 5,136]

Often enough people who cry about the bad spawncampers in the ingame chat do forget that lesson in a blink of an eye.

Because they will pull of the same stunt with the next plane they spawn again.

And again and again and again and again and again....

With worse and worse planes for sure.

 

I had battles with nearly 20 kills where 2 to 3 players made up nearly all kills.

And I was on bomber guard, not that close to their spawn. First they stallclimbed with blinkers for the bomber, then they got mad at the escort.

Even when they need 90s or more before they died, they still called me a spawncamper. 

[Sarin 2,329]

11 hours ago, ArthurBloss said:

Spawncamping is the product of a pilot winning the fight for altitude (or the enemy team just conceding the altitude advantage). In any case, no reason to complain. OP is totally right.

 

If spawncampers were bad pilots then one could easily energy trap them, bait for the team and lure them down to lower altitudes. Which is often not the case. Actually takes some effort to kill them. I noticed many spawncampers are gone once they lose their single 109, pyörremyrsky or whatever they fancy to fly.

 

It shouldn'd concern the furballers at all, most dive towards the middle of the map anyway to engage in as many headons as they survive.

 

There's just one, tiny weeny problem with that attitude.

 

WT is 16vs16. If I'm flying, say, P-47 and see four F-4 in squadron going hard for spawn camping and I'm the only one in the entire team willing to climb, what can I do? Either die quickly to being mobbed or dive to furball. No skill, no fun.

 

Is that fair? Is that my fault?

[MasterBLB 3,764]

27 minutes ago, Sarin said:

P-47 and see four F-4 in squadron going hard for spawn camping and I'm the only one in the entire team willing to climb, what can I do? Either die quickly to being mobbed or dive to furball. No skill, no fun.

Actually, it takes A LOT of skill to properly recognize when you should not engage a fight, and A LOT of self-discipline to do so (like ex. if you're over the enemy spawn just don't fly below 3500m, even if you have an enemy in gunsight). The situation you described @Sarin is one of these.

[Sarin 2,329]

48 minutes ago, MasterBLB said:

Actually, it takes A LOT of skill to properly recognize when you should not engage a fight, and A LOT of self-discipline to do so (like ex. if you're over the enemy spawn just don't fly below 3500m, even if you have an enemy in gunsight). The situation you described @Sarin is one of these.

 

No skill, no fun was about having to go for furball with a Jug.

 

Though there is indeed little skill in spawncamping once you achieve the position.

[SeeYouAtTheSpawn 3]

1 hour ago, Sarin said:

Though there is indeed little skill in spawncamping once you achieve the position.

why doesn't everyone do it then?  

1 hour ago, Sarin said:

No skill, no fun was about having to go for furball with a Jug.

Have you heard of BnZ?? 

[chplawrence 76]

Just curious, how far away from the spawn is considered being spawncamping?

[Lexing_ 241]

6 hours ago, chplawrence said:

Just curious, how far away from the spawn is considered being spawncamping?

For the average arcade player it means anyone who is above them (not to insult them or anything, just from what I've seen)

But in my opinion, spawn camping is when you shoot down someone within 5 seconds of them spawning. However, if that happens, the game is over. Your spawn has been overrun to the point where people can simply dogfight in it. And if it takes you more than 5 seconds to look around using the C key, you don't have anyone to blame. 5 seconds is an eternity in air combat and you should know this. 

[Lexing_ 241]

On 31/12/2020 at 05:04, Sarin said:

 

There's just one, tiny weeny problem with that attitude.

 

WT is 16vs16. If I'm flying, say, P-47 and see four F-4 in squadron going hard for spawn camping and I'm the only one in the entire team willing to climb, what can I do? Either die quickly to being mobbed or dive to furball. No skill, no fun.

 

Is that fair? Is that my fault?

Again, if your team does not understand the importance of altitude you will get swarmed. If there's a coordinated squad covering each other it will take a coordinated effort to kill them all. 

[SeeYouAtTheSpawn 3]

On 01/01/2021 at 06:38, chplawrence said:

Just curious, how far away from the spawn is considered being spawncamping?

Thats a really good question. In one game I had several guys on the enemy team were accusing my team's bombers of spawncamping when in reality they were base bombing above the spawn. 

[PARAMI 478]

On 31/12/2020 at 09:32, Sarin said:

 

No skill, no fun was about having to go for furball with a Jug.

 

Though there is indeed little skill in spawncamping once you achieve the position.

If you're unimaginative enough to consider furballing in a P47 as the only option when you get run out of spawn, then you're a substandard pilot at best. Campers occupy a tiny portion of the map--you can literally do anything you normally do except engage them on equal or lesser terms near your spawn. Have you considered diving off to the side and sideclimbing to bully them from altitude with headons and BnZ runs, or doing low-altitude energy fighting over the furball? It really isn't the end of the world if you get faced against campers. Chances are, if you ignore them, they'll ignore you (which you can use to your advantage if you want to kill them, or to your benefit if you don't want them to go for you).