The hell happened to Russian air

[Zephoid 1,583]

So, its been ~3 years since i played aircraft a lot. However, i come back to all the russian fighters losing combat flaps.  The Yak 9T used to be slightly inferior to the 109F4s turn rate, now its not even close. Almost every 109 still has better energy retention and climb rate, especially at higher alts. This problem  gets worse as you get to the the 109G2 and K4. 

I was playing the I225 and realized how absurdly nerfed the 20s are. 6 american .50s are better than 4 Russian 20s in terms of TTK and ability to destroy bomber wings. With 400 rounds in 4 cannons, i get lucky if i can kill a JU288, B29, or other heavy bomber before i run out of ammo. The hell happened here? The Russian 20s used to be comparable to hispanos, counteracted by their low gun count on a lot of the fighters. 

I'm also looking at team composition. After 4.0, you see 1-2 russian air players per team. Almost no one wants to play them. I can see why, but how the hell have things got so bad?

 

[FORNAX_USA 71]

Its not just Russian aircraft. Most nations have a pretty tough go of it when up against 109s in general. Most planes cannot hope to match the energy retention that 109s currently possess.

[Zephoid 1,583]

Sure, maybe the 109 was a bad comparison.

-US vs Russia, Russia loses beyond 3.0 all the way up to jets. 
-Russia vs Japan used give the climb and energy advantage to Russia and the turn advantage to Japan.  Now, japan has better climb rate planes added while Russia had their flaps removed.
-Brits vs Russia is a  more even  fight. Brits have amazing guns and a few very polar chassis, but the  average spitfire is a pretty even match to a yak. The  Typhoons are almost strictly better than any Russian aircraft at their BR.  

The Russian 20s are now on par with the Italians, so nearly ineffective. The 23mm seem to still be very effective, but the slow fire rate and only single cannon on most fighters makes it less impactful. I hit DO 217  with 12 37mm hits on  the same wing from above then behind, it still couldn't break the wing. I've had many fighters survive 37mm hits without crit. I don't understand these damage performances. 

All of these nerfs... where is the compensation? Russia hasn't been an overperforming nation in air forces in like 5 years (Yer2  speed bombing era). I  would like to get russian aircraft for my ground  forces lineup, but god they are infuriating to play. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Zephoid

[f_ritz 24]

Russian aircraft get even worse above 4.0. Yak-9U/Yak-3 are probably the best prop planes in the entire tree.

19 hours ago, Zephoid said:

US vs Russia, Russia loses beyond 3.0

I disagree; US planes are currently almost all near the bottom of the food chain minus the P-47, and even that can be outturned by the Yak-9U/Yak-3.

Russian 20s are indeed very underwhelming, to the point that the Yak-3P with more theoretical firepower than the Yak-3 performs worse and is still somehow at 5.3. The .50 Berezin seems to do more damage than the ShVAK.

All Russian fighters at 5.0-6.0 are horribly overtiered and need to be at least 0.7-1 BR lower if they want to be competitive with their existing flight models and guns. I-225 maneuvers like a truck. Yak-9UT is just the Yak-9U with questionably better guns at 2 BRs higher. La-7B-20 is an inferior La-7 with an extra cannon, and somehow that justifies putting it a full BR higher.

Every other time I've died in these overtiered planes it's to a braindead 109 with three 20-30mm guns and full tracers. Perhaps it's a L2P problem on my part, but I think Russian planes need a buff. Until then, I'm avoiding this BR range like the plague.

All this said, I've only been playing WT for two years total so I have no idea what it was like back in the old days. But it was probably better.

Edited December 22, 2020 by TheVozhd

[Zephoid 1,583]

The P47 has the bomb capacity of an attacker. Of course it can't outturn a dedicated fighter.

A36 can head-to-head anything and decimates any attacker or bomber with the profile of a fighter.

The F6f will beat a comparable yak at turn fighting (9T or 3) if you don't bring bombs

A20G is better than any russian medium bomber

F8F is better than any comparable br yak.


Yeah, the corsairs are awful. Yeah the P63s are mediocre. The P38s are underwhelming.   At least  there are SOME high quality aircraft in the lineup. I'm still struggling to find a single good Russian aircraft after 3.0. 


 

[f_ritz 24]

5 hours ago, Zephoid said:

A36 can head-to-head anything and decimates any attacker or bomber with the profile of a fighter.

As an avid Russian 3.0+ pilot, the A-36 is free real estate. Try avoiding head-ons, forcing turnfights, and draining the A-36 of energy if you're having trouble.

5 hours ago, Zephoid said:

F6f will beat a comparable yak at turn fighting

The F6F is also free real estate. See the points above.

I can't speak for F8Fs since I don't see them often. Your point regarding the A-20 I don't disagree with either.

Regarding the P-47 (which I fly often), it does have a few redeeming qualities against Russian planes: good engine and overwhelming firepower. I don't struggle much against Russians in a P-47, and vice versa. Know your strengths and know your enemies' weaknesses.

5 hours ago, Zephoid said:

I'm still struggling to find a single good Russian aircraft after 3.0.

La-5/5F are ok

La-5FN/La-7 are workable

Any tier 2 Yak is good

Yak-9T is good

Yak-9U is really good

Yak-3 is exceptional

Use tracers or universal belts on the ShVAKs, tracers only on the 12.7s.

For groundpounding, any IL-2 is ok. Try shooting tanks in the side with the 23mms. Pack the 2x 250 kg or 4x 100 kg if you're good at hitting tanks. IL-2s can also turnfight in a pinch if they have enough energy.

Pe-2 is ok with 2x 500 kg or 4x 250 kg

It's 5.0 and up where the Russians seriously suffer.

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

On 22/12/2020 at 19:40, TheVozhd said:

As an avid Russian 3.0+ pilot, the A-36 is free real estate. Try avoiding head-ons, forcing turnfights, and draining the A-36 of energy if you're having trouble.

The F6F is also free real estate. See the points above.

I can't speak for F8Fs since I don't see them often. Your point regarding the A-20 I don't disagree with either.

Regarding the P-47 (which I fly often), it does have a few redeeming qualities against Russian planes: good engine and overwhelming firepower. I don't struggle much against Russians in a P-47, and vice versa. Know your strengths and know your enemies' weaknesses.

La-5/5F are ok

La-5FN/La-7 are workable

Any tier 2 Yak is good

Yak-9T is good

Yak-9U is really good

Yak-3 is exceptional

Use tracers or universal belts on the ShVAKs, tracers only on the 12.7s.

For groundpounding, any IL-2 is ok. Try shooting tanks in the side with the 23mms. Pack the 2x 250 kg or 4x 100 kg if you're good at hitting tanks. IL-2s can also turnfight in a pinch if they have enough energy.

Pe-2 is ok with 2x 500 kg or 4x 250 kg

It's 5.0 and up where the Russians seriously suffer.

I am curious why you left the Yak-3P off your list...Your list looks good, especially the unknown and never flown Yak-9U which I love but fly poorly and the Yak-3 which I also love and fly slightly better...

[Lexing_ 241]

16 hours ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

I am curious why you left the Yak-3P off your list...Your list looks good, especially the unknown and never flown Yak-9U which I love but fly poorly and the Yak-3 which I also love and fly slightly better...

The Yak-3P trades the little lazer machine guns for 2x useless B-20 cannons (same as shvaks lol). It has better theoretical firepower but doesn't do well in combat due to the cannons just being bad. Not to mention you will face Bf 109 K-4s and G-2s, both of which are quite literally untouchable for you. They outrun, outclimb, outgun, and in the case of the G2 even outturn you. 

[PARAMI 478]

On 22/12/2020 at 14:55, Zephoid said:

The P47 has the bomb capacity of an attacker. Of course it can't outturn a dedicated fighter.

A36 can head-to-head anything and decimates any attacker or bomber with the profile of a fighter.

The F6f will beat a comparable yak at turn fighting (9T or 3) if you don't bring bombs

A20G is better than any russian medium bomber

F8F is better than any comparable br yak.


Yeah, the corsairs are awful. Yeah the P63s are mediocre. The P38s are underwhelming.   At least  there are SOME high quality aircraft in the lineup. I'm still struggling to find a single good Russian aircraft after 3.0. 


 

-The P47 D28 is one of the most overpowered planes at its BR, and that's without considering its versatility. Climbs well, outruns everything, has amazing guns, can turn in a pinch (which really shouldn't happen, but it does)--its only true weakness is its horrible damage model. 

-A36 used to have a nice FM, but it's been nerfed to oblivion and it flies like a truck, especially with pods. The rudder lockup is insane, and it's never been a good climber. It's workable, but it's easily countered by any enemy who has half a brain and just energy traps it. 

-F6F is alright--great straight line energy retention, good turnrate in certain circumstances. But it has one huge flaw--it bleeds so much speed in turns. The big wings also make it unwieldy, making shooting at moving targets a little hard. 

-F8F is a flying dump truck. One of the worst flight models in the game. Used to be amazing several years ago, but its current iteration makes it a free kill. Huge engine power doesn't matter when it immediately burns its speed when you shift even a little bit, and the elevator is so floppy that getting concise shots is nearly impossible. 

-Corsairs are a mixed bag. All of them have the floppy elevator issue, but the 1As, 1D, and 4B are quite good because they're so fast and hold so much energy. 

-P63s and P38s are pretty mediocre, yes. The P38s perform well, but are quite clunky to play. P63s just have FM issues that most other American planes have, which renders their strengths (good handling at high speed, good straight line energy retention) nullified. American planes just want to be slow, which sucks because the entire AB air meta is based around energy retention and predictable flight models.

 

As for good American planes, give these a whirl: 

-F2As are great

-The aforementioned Corsairs

-P39 N-0 is a beast. Its only disadvantage is its horrible gun. It has an amazing flight model--turns like an early spitfire, fast, can climb well, maintains energy. 

-P47 D-28, again

-P51 H-5 is a monster. Doesn't have the FM issues of the earlier Mustangs, and has engine power to spare. 

-P40-F10 has a horrible FM at low speeds, but its speed and low BR make up for it

-As for premiums, 109 F4 and XP-55 are both amazing

 

Good Russian planes past 3.0: 

-Yak 1B, 9, 9T, 3, 3U, 9U, 7B: all are good at everything, not exceptional at anything. 3, 7B, and 9U are absolutely amazing. 

-La-5F, 5FN, 7, 9: A little chunkier than the Yaks, but still pretty good; predictable.

The key to flying Russians, in a nutshell, is to know your enemy's plane. Your planes generally will have no glaring weaknesses, but nor will they have any exceptional strengths (except for some Yaks--they have exceptional energy retention, and are firmly in the meta. I wouldn't fear any plane piloted by anyone who isn't a top duelist in those, but it may be different for people of different skill levels). Your goal is to find out how to exploit your enemy's weaknesses. 

 

But regarding your other points, ShVaks are indeed bad, and the Russian tree as a whole doesn't compare to the Germans. However, there are quite a few good planes that are completely competitive. Oh, and don't fly the I-225. It's a miserable experience. I find the guns fine, but the turnrate is so bad and the rudder isn't usable at all. It's also a flying contradiction: top speed is bad enough that I've been run down by planes 2 BRs below me, but it gains speed well and holds onto it in vertical maneuvers provided you don't use rudder. think that may be in part due to its horrible turn time. It's one of those planes that completely collapses as soon as you're in a tough spot--much like most American fighters. I My stats are decent in it especially considering I just flew it to spade it, but I think that's because I was flying in a duo most of the time. 

 

 

 

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

12 hours ago, PARAMI said:

-The P47 D28 is one of the most overpowered planes at its BR, and that's without considering its versatility. Climbs well, outruns everything, has amazing guns, can turn in a pinch (which really shouldn't happen, but it does)--its only true weakness is its horrible damage model. 

-A36 used to have a nice FM, but it's been nerfed to oblivion and it flies like a truck, especially with pods. The rudder lockup is insane, and it's never been a good climber. It's workable, but it's easily countered by any enemy who has half a brain and just energy traps it. 

Yes, if you fly down low...I seldom fly this thing but when I do it's to base bomb and also take out spawning bombers between reloads...Since you can dive bomb from 4500m you are pretty much always in position to eat a few bombers during your reloads...

-F6F is alright--great straight line energy retention, good turnrate in certain circumstances. But it has one huge flaw--it bleeds so much speed in turns. The big wings also make it unwieldy, making shooting at moving targets a little hard.

-F8F is a flying dump truck. One of the worst flight models in the game. Used to be amazing several years ago, but its current iteration makes it a free kill. Huge engine power doesn't matter when it immediately burns its speed when you shift even a little bit, and the elevator is so floppy that getting concise shots is nearly impossible. 

This one makes me sad...About the time I got it gaijin changed everything about it so now it just sits in the hanger...

-Corsairs are a mixed bag. All of them have the floppy elevator issue, but the 1As, 1D, and 4B are quite good because they're so fast and hold so much energy.

They also have a sneaky great turn rate for about 1 1/2 turns max...I have surprised multiples with a Corsair in a turn with flaps...

-P63s and P38s are pretty mediocre, yes. The P38s perform well, but are quite clunky to play. P63s just have FM issues that most other American planes have, which renders their strengths (good handling at high speed, good straight line energy retention) nullified. American planes just want to be slow, which sucks because the entire AB air meta is based around energy retention and predictable flight models.

 

As for good American planes, give these a whirl: 

-F2As are great

-The aforementioned Corsairs

-P39 N-0 is a beast. Its only disadvantage is its horrible gun. It has an amazing flight model--turns like an early spitfire, fast, can climb well, maintains energy. 

I just went back to this plane and you are so right...I only use the 37mm for close in on bombers and the MG's for everything else with stealth loaded...

-P47 D-28, again

-P51 H-5 is a monster. Doesn't have the FM issues of the earlier Mustangs, and has engine power to spare. 

-P40-F10 has a horrible FM at low speeds, but its speed and low BR make up for it

It has that fabulous Merlin so I can chase down those down tiered bombers that show up fairly frequently...I have managed to run down several of those Swedish B-18B starfighters at high alt...

-As for premiums, 109 F4 and XP-55 are both amazing

 

Good Russian planes past 3.0: 

-Yak 1B, 9, 9T, 3, 3U, 9U, 7B: all are good at everything, not exceptional at anything. 3, 7B, and 9U are absolutely amazing. Very Yes...

-La-5F, 5FN, 7, 9: A little chunkier than the Yaks, but still pretty good; predictable.

The key to flying Russians, in a nutshell, is to know your enemy's plane. Your planes generally will have no glaring weaknesses, but nor will they have any exceptional strengths (except for some Yaks--they have exceptional energy retention, and are firmly in the meta. I wouldn't fear any plane piloted by anyone who isn't a top duelist in those, but it may be different for people of different skill levels). Your goal is to find out how to exploit your enemy's weaknesses. 

 

But regarding your other points, ShVaks are indeed bad, and the Russian tree as a whole doesn't compare to the Germans. However, there are quite a few good planes that are completely competitive. Oh, and don't fly the I-225. It's a miserable experience. I find the guns fine, but the turnrate is so bad and the rudder isn't usable at all. It's also a flying contradiction: top speed is bad enough that I've been run down by planes 2 BRs below me, but it gains speed well and holds onto it in vertical maneuvers provided you don't use rudder. think that may be in part due to its horrible turn time. It's one of those planes that completely collapses as soon as you're in a tough spot--much like most American fighters. I My stats are decent in it especially considering I just flew it to spade it, but I think that's because I was flying in a duo most of the time. 

 

 

 

 

[Challenger_TA 421]

Correct 109s are dominate compared to most. Russian 20mms got nerfed years ago and have been nearly useless. The 12.7 Berezins seem to do more work than the 20mms so if you must fly Russian try using one with multiple Berezins. 23s on the other hand work great last time i played them but admittedly i stopped using Russians when they took away their guns.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Challenger_TA

[VT_88 342]

I'm sorry, but I fly IL's all the time.

 

They are the best.

 

Also, forgot about the Pe's. They are fast can kill ground and I have quite a few Aircraft kills. Mine is a free Ace.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by VT_88

[Kosher_Locust 120]

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking the F8F is more like a Freightliner than the ultimate prop fighter. 

 

I think 20mm cannon in general have been nerfed, even for Germans,  Too often when chasing an enemy or catching them in a turn I'm wasting shots, they mostly work when doing head-ons and oblique front angles.

 

I found better success when making sure every plane I fly from 5.7 up has at least one 30mm cannon, and if any 5.3 planes have an option to install it.  I prefer the 190's and 152's but fly some 109's with a 30 nose and twin wing 20 arrangement for when it's heavy dogfighting; I may try switching that some day to see if it makes any difference.  109's are hard to hit because they are a very small plane, but I find La-7/9's P-51H's and Ki-61/84's to be strong matches to them.

 

Taking off the combat flaps...uggh, that was one of the big flying secrets I didn't discover until late in the game.  

[Petrenko35780 3]

On 21/12/2020 at 23:11, Zephoid said:

So, its been ~3 years since i played aircraft a lot. However, i come back to all the russian fighters losing combat flaps.  The Yak 9T used to be slightly inferior to the 109F4s turn rate, now its not even close. Almost every 109 still has better energy retention and climb rate, especially at higher alts. This problem  gets worse as you get to the the 109G2 and K4. 

I was playing the I225 and realized how absurdly nerfed the 20s are. 6 american .50s are better than 4 Russian 20s in terms of TTK and ability to destroy bomber wings. With 400 rounds in 4 cannons, i get lucky if i can kill a JU288, B29, or other heavy bomber before i run out of ammo. The hell happened here? The Russian 20s used to be comparable to hispanos, counteracted by their low gun count on a lot of the fighters. 

I'm also looking at team composition. After 4.0, you see 1-2 russian air players per team. Almost no one wants to play them. I can see why, but how the hell have things got so bad?

 

Because the Soviet aviation was designed as a target drone in this game.

[Lexing_ 241]

Regarding soviet aviation, there are two problems affecting two distinct families of aircraft. I will only talk about props as admittedly I don't have much experience with arcade soviet jets.

 

The Yaks got a massive flight model nerf, which made their rudders extremely volatile, for lack of a better word. Rudder switching is now a guaranteed death sentence for any Yak other than the Yak-3. Even so, the 3 still suffers from poor energy retention compared to its 4.0 rivals such as the Bf 109 F-4 and J2M2. All yaks also suffer from this problem. They love to bleed energy which essentially makes any yak other than the 3 free kills for anything that is able to abuse their energy retention. Losing the combat flaps wasn't as big of a deal, but the rudder nerf really put the yaks in a rough spot.

 

The Lavochkin series went the opposite way. The majority of their guns are now useless. Shvaks do ok on a good day and feel like 5.56mm ball bullet launchers at their worst. Low fire rate and low muzzle velocity makes the high explosive rounds nearly worthless, and the API rounds have been nerfed into the ground after a brief stint of being the best belt. They still have the absolutely fantastic flight model and energy retention with the exception of the La-9, however, so given patience are still workable. 

[bearteeth 139]

I've got a set of 3.7 russians (ok mostly american lend-lease but technically russian) that made really, really good use of my battlepass SL boosters. I put the La-9 in with 5.0 and lower stuff, and at 5.3 La-9 is still absolutely disgusting. It's a bit reassuring to hear that the La-7b-20 isn't in a great place though because I've struggled to perform with it in that setup, but otherwise my 5.3 rack is a fine, like... vanity setup where I pay over nine thousand SL to repair the La-9 but I keep flying it because... it's worth over nine thousand SL I guess?

 

The 8.0 arcade jet rig is both the good and bad kind of bonkers. So many great planes; La-200 especially seems to be punching way above the 8.0 threshold. The problem comes with the games you get queuing 8.0 AB. There's a strong magnet pulling you upward, toward the guided missiles. If you get downtiered, then the il-28s can just straight up win the game. But most of the time you're getting blown up from two kilometers out by premium 8.3+ guided missiles. Like, you'll see harriers on the regular even though in theory the 1.3 uptier should be extremely rare.

 

I don't even play my Mig-15s anymore because I'd just be seeing harriers all day every day.