Swedish Planes greatly OP

[Achemar 4]

I'm having an issue where, in every game I enter, Swedish planes (J21-A1, J21-A2, A21, J22, etc) are at the top of the in-game statistics board, every single time. I am dying, nearly 75% of the time now, to Swedish planes. Either there needs to be some balancing here, or BR needs to be upped.

[Lexing_ 241]

12 minutes ago, Achemar said:

I'm having an issue where, in every game I enter, Swedish planes (J21-A1, J21-A2, A21, J22, etc) are at the top of the in-game statistics board, every single time. I am dying, nearly 75% of the time now, to Swedish planes. Either there needs to be some balancing here, or BR needs to be upped.

The only thing that those planes have going for them are the guns. The flight models of the J21s are 3.3 at best (Don't ask me how they're supposed to deal with P-39s lol) with some of the lowest redlining speeds of the tier. Maneuvering energy retention is acceptable, but energy retention as a whole is subpar. Controllability on every axis is good to excellent on the rudder, and remains so until a hundred kilometers IAS, though it isn't very useful considering the plane is a fairly large target. Regarding the J22, they fly like 190s with no engines. They have terrible turn rate, terrible acceleration, terrible energy retention, and absolutely unusable control axis's. The rudder is extremely wobbly, the roll is average at best, and the pitch authority is pitiful at nearly any speed. As long as you avoid the headon with them, most planes at their BRs will make mincemeat out of the swedish planes. 

[PARAMI 478]

Swedish planes with 13.2s are the ultimate monkey machines. One of the most annoying aircraft to face just based on those guns, and that J21s are quite snappy and good at adjusting in the headon and have very low stall speeds. Their flight models aren't amazing, but they're good where it counts when it comes down to one average player spraying and praying against another average player. You can teach a pet monkey to get a 3-1 KD in a J22 or J21.

[ACSchnitzel 291]

Don't forget the SK60s and 105s... Pure cancer.

[Lexing_ 241]

13 hours ago, ACSchnitzel said:

Don't forget the SK60s and 105s... Pure cancer.

Maybe try not turning against the 60?

Maybe try not trying to run away from the 105?

[f_ritz 24]

On 24/12/2020 at 12:41, Achemar said:

I am dying, nearly 75% of the time now, to Swedish planes. Either there needs to be some balancing here, or BR needs to be upped

This alone does not justify a BR raise.

That said, Swedish guns are stupidly op for their caliber. What they need is a gun nerf, followed by a BR decrease because their flight models aren't good enough at 4.0. If you keep dying to Swedes, try not going head-on with one. That's the one thing they're good at.

[VT_88 342]

tHEY WERE 3.7 NOW 4.0 AND THE NEED TO MOVE TO 4.3 PREFERABLY 4.7

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

Not really...You have no effect on the outcome regardless of what you do...Play for personal stats...

[Sir_Armand 203]

On 24/12/2020 at 20:07, ____Lexing____ said:

The only thing that those planes have going for them are the guns.

I really have to agree with Lexing on this one. Don't get into a headbutting contest with a Swede - chances are your plane will either outclimb, outturn, outrun, and/or outenergy

Spoiler

(I know, not a real word) 

the J21.

If you go headon, or if you allow one into a superior attack position, yeah, you're toast - but you should be able to outperform them.

[Challenger_TA 421]

Its the guns that should be adjusted. The planes themselves aren't that impressive. Those 13.2s just demolish everything and they can reach out and touch planes at great distance by even the most average of players.

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

13 hours ago, Challenger_TA said:

Its the guns that should be adjusted. The planes themselves aren't that impressive. Those 13.2s just demolish everything and they can reach out and touch planes at great distance by even the most average of players.

Actually in RL the 13.2's were loaded with explosive bullets so the would do much moar damage than the 12.7's...After the war Sweden standardized all their aircraft armaments with 12.7's due to the supply of cheap ammunition available, it was considered a downgrade by the Royal Swedish Air Force...

[Sarin 2,329]

10 hours ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

Actually in RL the 13.2's were loaded with explosive bullets so the would do much moar damage than the 12.7's...After the war Sweden standardized all their aircraft armaments with 12.7's due to the supply of cheap ammunition available, it was considered a downgrade by the Royal Swedish Air Force...

 

The explosive rounds also turned out to be quite dangerous to users as they sometime exploded in the barrel after longer bursts. Plus, what we don't have ingame is that the tracer also acted a self-destruct, after travelling some distance-500m I think, I'd need to pull out the source.

 

But the biggest problem IMO is the weird handling of small explosives in game, which causes a lot of oddities like one-shot MG151/20 when it hits wing spar, Hisparkos and similar.

[Lexing_ 241]

15 hours ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

Actually in RL the 13.2's were loaded with explosive bullets so the would do much moar damage than the 12.7's...After the war Sweden standardized all their aircraft armaments with 12.7's due to the supply of cheap ammunition available, it was considered a downgrade by the Royal Swedish Air Force...

I know that, but the fact is that 90% of 20mms which were historically supposed to be far superior to 50cals are vastly inferior ingame. Like I said above, swedish 13.2s would be completely balanced if every 20mm acted like a swedish 13.2. 

[Challenger_TA 421]

15 hours ago, HochgeborenKlown said:

Actually in RL the 13.2's were loaded with explosive bullets so the would do much moar damage than the 12.7's...After the war Sweden standardized all their aircraft armaments with 12.7's due to the supply of cheap ammunition available, it was considered a downgrade by the Royal Swedish Air Force...

 

Not saying they can't be good or weren't good. I'm saying they could be dialed down some and/or other guns like some 20mms buffed. They turn very average players into little terrors. They could certainly be allowed to be better than 12.7s. 

[anyuser 5,136]

1 hour ago, ____Lexing____ said:

I know that, but the fact is that 90% of 20mms which were historically supposed to be far superior to 50cals are vastly inferior ingame. Like I said above, swedish 13.2s would be completely balanced if every 20mm acted like a swedish 13.2. 

Thats the point.

While I would say, that some other .50 should be much better then they are currently.

The japanese HEI bullet without any HE-load is such a big joke.

 

But currently it seems everything is just about the HE-load, while Frags do next to nothing.

[Crome 78]

I think they get an easy Br. placement because they lack in numbers of planes. When you only put one plane in you loadout the Br. gets reduces, because if this plane is gone, you have none. 

[HochgeborenKlown 1,276]

On 06/01/2021 at 11:07, Challenger_TA said:

 

Not saying they can't be good or weren't good. I'm saying they could be dialed down some and/or other guns like some 20mms buffed. They turn very average players into little terrors. They could certainly be allowed to be better than 12.7s. 

Some of the 20's definitely need buffing since they act more like Nippon Empire 7.7's than 20mm's...But everything I have read says the Swedish 13.2's were like mini 151's with minengeschoss shells...

 

[Challenger_TA 421]

Looks like instead of dialing back the guns they are upping the br on planes with just average performance. Backwards but as expected

[Lexing_ 241]

10 hours ago, Challenger_TA said:

Looks like instead of dialing back the guns they are upping the br on planes with just average performance. Backwards but as expected

Gotta love that good ole cannon tax



Meanwhile P-39N-0 with 4.0 performance is still at 3.3 for god knows why

Edited January 23, 2021 by ____Lexing____

[FailBoatCaptain 439]

lol shoot a J21 do no damage he out turns you and one shots you when you have to disengage . Yeah balnced gameplay  that is 

[Kosher_Locust 120]

The Swedes everyone complains about, the three J series props and to a lesser degree the A series jets, have a fast firing cannon--600-700 RPM from a Swedish version of the Hispano-Suiza HS.404, and four FN Browning 50 calibers that are either 1,000 RPM or 1,500 RPM.  Technically the J series came out only a few months after the war ended, but the armament is more typical of post-war aircraft, and the performance in the game bears that out.

 

The J series are maneuverable but aren't very fast, and lose energy quickly.  Plus the prop is right where people aim when getting a tail shot.  The trick is to keep a high speed and avoid getting in front of one, and have someone else dogfight the J, when he loses speed then you have a good chance to get him.  The A series are actually under powered to contemporary jets and have the same slow but maneuverable flight characteristics.  Jet on jet they're not much, but can be a threat when down tiered against prop planes.

[Lexing_ 241]

2 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

 

The J series are maneuverable but aren't very fast, and lose energy quickly.  Plus the prop is right where people aim when getting a tail shot.  The trick is to keep a high speed and avoid getting in front of one, and have someone else dogfight the J, when he loses speed then you have a good chance to get him.  The A series are actually under powered to contemporary jets and have the same slow but maneuverable flight characteristics.  Jet on jet they're not much, but can be a threat when down tiered against prop planes.

1. Yes they aren't very fast, but they can retain a surprising amount of energy in steep climbs and stallfighting maneuvers. Do not underestimate their maneuvering energy retention

2. That isn't necessarily a disadvantage because of the fact that for most other fighters that's where the cockpit is.

3. The A21RB and J21RA are two of the worst 6.7 jets in the game, far outclassed by the F-84B and the Kikka. 

4. No, the aforementioned two jets struggle to accelerate unlike their prop counterparts, and do not have a high top speed compared to contemporary props. A Bf 109 K-4 will eat both for breakfast.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

On 24/01/2021 at 12:12, ____Lexing____ said:

1. Yes they aren't very fast, but they can retain a surprising amount of energy in steep climbs and stallfighting maneuvers. Do not underestimate their maneuvering energy retention

2. That isn't necessarily a disadvantage because of the fact that for most other fighters that's where the cockpit is.

3. The A21RB and J21RA are two of the worst 6.7 jets in the game, far outclassed by the F-84B and the Kikka. 

4. No, the aforementioned two jets struggle to accelerate unlike their prop counterparts, and do not have a high top speed compared to contemporary props. A Bf 109 K-4 will eat both for breakfast.

 

You know I do fly all of these planes......

 

1. No, they're not maneuverable and can only keep energy in steep climbs if they start out with it.

2.  The cockpit, the little room where the pilot sits, isn't at the rear of the plane.  That's where the tail is.. I know you want to be contrary in every way possible but having the engine at the back does make it vulnerable.

3. Didn't I just say they weren't very good compared to other jets?  And nearly all early post-war jets struggle to accelerate from low speeds, the magic zone where jets pull ahead being around 500kmh.

4. In a dogfight, as with other early postwar jets, yes.  If using boom and zoom the A's have an advantage in ultimate top speed, while the K4's magic comes from WEP, so it depends whether the Swede can keep speed and how long the WEP lasts.

[Lexing_ 241]

9 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

 

You know I do fly all of these planes......

 

1. No, they're not maneuverable and can only keep energy in steep climbs if they start out with it.

2.  The cockpit, the little room where the pilot sits, isn't at the rear of the plane.  That's where the tail is.. I know you want to be contrary in every way possible but having the engine at the back does make it vulnerable.

3. Didn't I just say they weren't very good compared to other jets?  And nearly all early post-war jets struggle to accelerate from low speeds, the magic zone where jets pull ahead being around 500kmh.

4. In a dogfight, as with other early postwar jets, yes.  If using boom and zoom the A's have an advantage in ultimate top speed, while the K4's magic comes from WEP, so it depends whether the Swede can keep speed and how long the WEP lasts.

1. I've flown against and flown all of those planes. They are quite maneuverable compared to other planes of their size. Neither is their energy retention exceptional, however their energy retention through maneuvers is quite good. 
2. Because the J21's cockpit is situated forwards, situations where other planes would have been pilot sniped usually turns into engine damage for the J21s. That is definitely an advantage in survivability. 

3. I know the limits of the airframe. J21s struggle to go past 700 kph because of the specific design of the wing, a trait shared by all J21 variants. Even jets.

4. The Bf 109 K-4 has better energy retention than any immediate postwar jet except the Kikka, while being fast enough to catch the Yak-15 and the J21/A21 jet variants, all of which struggle to go past 700 kph in a dive while the K-4 reaches 800 kph with ease. A good K-4 driver will conserve his wep, and if he does so there is nothing a J21 jet variant or Yak-15 is doing to him. The K-4 outclimbs both by a considerable margin while also having better firepower. 

[Xx8xX 167]

Swedish plane are not op and from crying here are ....... up because repair cost is 7k to 10k in 4.0BR its triple repair cost from Fw and Bfs so good job crying about them and the Bfs and Fw are better in every think + they can use gun pods and they have more cannons so all the crying is False and make the game more disqusting ofc its not players fault Gaijin make so many mistakes but they dont even balance the game properly consideing they have so many planes in all brackets and 90% of them are playable why because every one will use the good ones meaning 10% of every nation so seying somthing is op and dont checking the stats first its BS and every nation have good planes in some BRs consider checking first the rest of planes before you QQ about them even if they make them 25k repair cost many ppl will play them if not you will have more Bfs to face any way nothing will chance exept they are better in every think and you will die more often that before