The attack Viggen, AJ-37

[strv122 391]

Overview:

The AJ-37 is the first of the Viggen variants to enter service. The AJ-37 is a single engine Jet powered Delta-Canard attacker with very limited fighter capability. It had its first flight on the 23rd februari 1971,entered active service in 1973 and was retired in 1997. In total 107 AJ-37's were produced by SAAB and used by the swedish airforce.

A AJ-37 

 

Specifications:

 

• Crew: 1
• length: 16,3 m
• Wingspan: 10,6 m
• Height: 5,6 m
• Wing area: 46 m²
• Empty weight: 10 731 kg
• Max Takeoff weight: 20 450 kg
• Powerplant: Volvo Aero RM8A, 6689 kgf dry and 11787 kgf with reheat(has reverse thrust).
• Fuel capacity(internal): 5525 l
• Fuel capacity(drop tank): 1326 l
• Top Speed: At high alt M2.0, at sea level >1350 km/h.

 

Armaments:

 

Primary:

None

 

Secondary:

Nine external hardpoints carying a multitude of armaments, drop tank and countermeasures.

They can mount: RB24/24J AAM,RB 28(can carry but never used), FFV 30mm Gunpods, RB 04 ASM, RB 75(agm-65), RB 05 AGM, 120 kg M/71 bomb, M/70 rocket pod,  1326 l drop tank, Jamming Pod KA(radar jamming), Jamming Pod U22(radar jamming) and Countermeasures Pod KB(both Flares and chaff). 

Pictures showing the armaments:

Spoiler

 

Avionics and Equipment:

 

• Radar: PS-37/A(Monopulse radar for ground and sea targets. max range of 120km, search area of 62,5 ° in both vertical and horizontal axis.)
• HUD: EP-08
• Flight control system: CK37(CCIP, CCRP, Autopilot, etc)
• RWR: APP-27(s, c, x and k bands)
• There are many more

The cockpit

Spoiler

 

If added it would give sweden a competetive top tier attacker/CAS witch sweden is currently lacking. 

 

Assorted pictures of the viggen

Spoiler

 

 

Sources:

• https://www.aef.se/Avionik/Notiser/PS-37/PS-37A.htm
• https://www.aef.se/Avionik/Notiser/FPL37_Avioniksystem_Notis_2.htm
• https://ftfsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Fpl-AJ-37-speciell-förarinstruktion-SFI-del-2-kap-1.pdf
• https://ftfsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Fpl-AJ-37-speciell-förarinstruktion-SFI-del-3.pdf
• https://www.aef.se/Flygvapnet/Notiser/AJ37_Notis_2.htm

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by strv122

[ItssLuBu 1,803]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[Asghaad 2,476]

2x AiM9J / P and no internal gun (or even centerline gunpod) sounds VERY limited, it would be almost pure groundpounder and a dead weight in AiR RB.

 

its flight performance would put it at 10.7 but its armament would be bad even at 10.0 especially considering it cant combine bombs and missiles

 

from technical standpoint it would be nice historical addition to minor nation tech tree, from gameplay perspective id rather not have any more basically useless planes dragging theyr unfortunate teams to the defeat

 

 

[strv122 391]

22 minutes ago, Asghaad said:

2x AiM9J / P and no internal gun (or even centerline gunpod) sounds VERY limited, it would be almost pure groundpounder and a dead weight in AiR RB.

 

its flight performance would put it at 10.7 but its armament would be bad even at 10.0 especially considering it cant combine bombs and missiles

 

from technical standpoint it would be nice historical addition to minor nation tech tree, from gameplay perspective id rather not have any more basically useless planes dragging theyr unfortunate teams to the defeat

 

 

It has the FFV 30mm gunpod witch is the same gunpod as the sk60 and saab 105

Spoiler

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by strv122

[Sprit_ 74]

+1. Great to see it suggested

I have links to some manuals which contains most information about the plane. You can use them to in the source list.

 

https://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/sfi/Fpl AJ 37 speciell förarinstruktion (SFI) del 2 kap 1.pdf

Contains weapons, countermeasures, radar etc.

 

https://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/sfi/Fpl AJ 37 speciell förarinstruktion (SFI) del 3.pdf

Contains aerodynamic performance, acceleration, rate climb, range etc. (Armament options in page 8)

 

EDIT: nevermind, you have them already lol

Edited January 23, 2021 by Sprit_

[Asghaad 2,476]

13 minutes ago, strv122 said:

It has the FFV 30mm gunpod witch is the same gunpod as the sk60 and saab 105

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 two guns on wing mounted pods basically at the furthest possible pylons ...

 

if they were rotary guns with lot of ammo i could see that working, but not with ADENs, it will be almost impossible to hit anything with those, we arent talking about SAAB105 meta where turnfighting is still a thing, this plane will be at 10.3 at the lowest facing F4E /EJ and MiG21 BiS not MiG9 or HO229...

[KekDermott@live 552]

+1 this an absolute must, Sweden could really do with a top tier worthy CAS aircraft. Also

 

5 hours ago, Asghaad said:

2x AiM9J / P and no internal gun (or even centerline gunpod) sounds VERY limited, it would be almost pure groundpounder and a dead weight in AiR RB.

 

its flight performance would put it at 10.7 but its armament would be bad even at 10.0 especially considering it cant combine bombs and missiles

 

from technical standpoint it would be nice historical addition to minor nation tech tree, from gameplay perspective id rather not have any more basically useless planes dragging theyr unfortunate teams to the defeat

 

 

@Asghaad You do realize the JA37 AJ37 is a ground attack aircraft right? Who in their right mind would use this in as a fighter when theres a much better option in the form of the Draken. Getting back to the point though, why are you only looking at it's use in air rb? You should be looking not only at air rb but ground rb too were attack aircraft such as the Viggen are much better/practical options then fighters like the Mig21 or Phantom.   

Edited January 23, 2021 by KekDermott@live

[strv122 391]

9 minutes ago, KekDermott@live said:

+1 this an absolute must, Sweden could really do with a top tier worthy CAS aircraft. Also

 

@Asghaad You do realize the JA37 is a ground attack aircraft right? Who in their right mind would use this in a fighter when theres a much better option in the form of the Draken. Getting back to the point though, why are you only looking at it's use in air rb? You should be looking not only at air rb but ground rb too were attack aircraft such as the Viggen are much better/practical options then fighters like the Mig21 or Phantom.   

AJ-37* the JA-37 was a fighter interceptor that carrier RB 74(aim-9l), RB 71(skyflash) and on upgraded variants RB 99(aim-120)

[KekDermott@live 552]

11 minutes ago, strv122 said:

AJ-37* the JA-37 was a fighter interceptor that carrier RB 74(aim-9l), RB 71(skyflash) and on upgraded variants RB 99(aim-120)

Oops my bad , got them mixed up there.

[Asghaad 2,476]

27 minutes ago, KekDermott@live said:

+1 this an absolute must, Sweden could really do with a top tier worthy CAS aircraft. Also

 

@Asghaad You do realize the JA37 is a ground attack aircraft right? Who in their right mind would use this in a fighter when theres a much better option in the form of the Draken. Getting back to the point though, why are you only looking at it's use in air rb? You should be looking not only at air rb but ground rb too were attack aircraft such as the Viggen are much better/practical options then fighters like the Mig21 or Phantom.   

 

 

because AiR Rb is getting pretty much destroyed by the "im groundpounding" zombies that make the NATO teams fight outnumbered 2:1 against Soviets that do not have people taking supersonic interceptors to fly at ground level trying to bomb stuff that is irrelevant to the gamemode where victory is decided in air to air ...

 

we really do not need yet another plane that will be taken UNARMED into combat ... because if you want bombs, you cant have ANY other armaments on it ...

 

and ffs did you just claim that Viggen that cant carry even gun with the bombs is more "practical" than F4E than can take its FULL 8 missile loadout alongside 7 1000lb bombs AND its internal gun ?

Edited January 23, 2021 by Asghaad

[KekDermott@live 552]

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

because AiR Rb is getting pretty much destroyed by the "im groundpounding" zombies that make the NATO teams fight outnumbered 2:1 against Soviets that do not have people taking supersonic interceptors to fly at ground level trying to bomb stuff that is irrelevant to the gamemode where victory is decided in air to air ...

That is partially true but it's not entirely down to that, theres other factors you need to consider such as people who can't effectivley use the Phantom as a fighter and players in other aircraft that aren't on the Phantoms level (such as the F104's, Jags, Draken and Mirage). On their own these factors aren't much of an issue, it's when they come together that we get the massive issue of NATO teams losing.

1 hour ago, Asghaad said:

we really do not need yet another plane that will be taken UNARMED into combat ... because if you want bombs, you cant have ANY other armaments on it ...

 

I don't know, seems pretty armed to me (also the outermost pylons can be used for missiles so its total is 4 not 2).

 

2 hours ago, Asghaad said:

and ffs did you just claim that Viggen that cant carry even gun with the bombs is more "practical" than F4E than can take its FULL 8 missile loadout alongside 7 1000lb bombs AND its internal gun ?

Yes I most certainly did. And that is due to my experience in ground rb not just with the Phantom but with purpose made ground attack aircraft such as the Jaguar, Harrier and Buccaneer all of which I've found to be much better CAS platforms then the Phantom (this is especially true for the Buccaneer). If you doubt me on this then I'd like to ask you this @Asghaad, why is the Phantom a better CAS plane then the Viggen and the three jets I just mentioned? 

[strv122 391]

20 minutes ago, KekDermott@live said:

That is partially true but it's not entirely down to that, theres other factors you need to consider such as people who can't effectivley use the Phantom as a fighter and players in other aircraft that aren't on the Phantoms level (such as the F104's, Jags, Draken and Mirage). On their own these factors aren't much of an issue, it's when they come together that we get the massive issue of NATO teams losing.

 

I don't know, seems pretty armed to me (also the outermost pylons can be used for missiles so its total is 4 not 2).

 

Yes I most certainly did. And that is due to my experience in ground rb not just with the Phantom but with purpose made ground attack aircraft such as the Jaguar, Harrier and Buccaneer all of which I've found to be much better CAS platforms then the Phantom (this is especially true for the Buccaneer). If you doubt me on this then I'd like to ask you this @Asghaad, why is the Phantom a better CAS plane then the Viggen and the three jets I just mentioned? 

you can only have the RB24/24J on the inner pylons exept the rb75(agm 65) witch is tv guided agm, on the ajs you can have aams on all pylons

[KekDermott@live 552]

13 minutes ago, strv122 said:

you can only have the RB24/24J on the inner pylons exept the rb75(agm 65) witch is tv guided agm, on the ajs you can have aams on all pylons

Still though 2 RB24J's and gunpods along with flares isn't bad for an attack aircraft. What I don't understand is why he thinks the AJ37 would be 10.7 seems more likely it would be 10.0 or 10.3

Edited January 23, 2021 by KekDermott@live

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

@strv122 can it carry a gunpod on the center pylon ? if so it mean 2 x RB-24J , 1 AKAN in a good position , a stronger engine with a better T/W ratio,  RWR and flares , sounds like a pretty decent "fighter" IMO

Edited January 23, 2021 by MonkeyBussiness

[KekDermott@live 552]

29 minutes ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

@strv122 can it carry a gunpod on the center pylon ? if so it mean 2 x RB-24J , 1 AKAN in a good position , a stronger engine with a better T/W ratio,  RWR and flares , sounds like a pretty decent "fighter" IMO

Got that right.

[Asghaad 2,476]

31 minutes ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

@strv122 can it carry a gunpod on the center pylon ? if so it mean 2 x RB-24J , 1 AKAN in a good position , a stronger engine with a better T/W ratio,  RWR and flares , sounds like a pretty decent "fighter" IMO

 

no it cant, center pylon is fuel tank or the anti ship missile only, cannon pods go either to the front pylons that are the only ones capable of holding Sidewinders or wing pylons.

 

so you either have semi decent placement for two ADENs and no missiles or use wing pods which will have horrible issues with accuracy.

 

again its :

 

no gun + 2 x Aim9J

wing pylon gunpods+ 2x AiM9J

fuselage pylon gunpods and no missiles

gunpods on both wing and fuselage pylons

 

thats IT for anti air weaponry

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, KekDermott@live said:

That is partially true but it's not entirely down to that, theres other factors you need to consider such as people who can't effectivley use the Phantom as a fighter and players in other aircraft that aren't on the Phantoms level (such as the F104's, Jags, Draken and Mirage). On their own these factors aren't much of an issue, it's when they come together that we get the massive issue of NATO teams losing.

 

I don't know, seems pretty armed to me (also the outermost pylons can be used for missiles so its total is 4 not 2).

 

Yes I most certainly did. And that is due to my experience in ground rb not just with the Phantom but with purpose made ground attack aircraft such as the Jaguar, Harrier and Buccaneer all of which I've found to be much better CAS platforms then the Phantom (this is especially true for the Buccaneer). If you doubt me on this then I'd like to ask you this @Asghaad, why is the Phantom a better CAS plane then the Viggen and the three jets I just mentioned? 

 

1. no its fully true, at 10.7 every braindead zombie that is dropping bombs is one more plane enemy has to outnumber the fighter pilots. And considering i have yet to see SINGLE air RB battle at 10.7 end by tickets despite having quite a few (hundred) of them under my belt i can safely say ground attack in air RB is IRRELEVANT meaning anyone trying to groundpound there is just a useless dead weight to the team and one more reason why NATO teams so often lose. And if you consider Draken and Mirage to be worse than Phantom ...

 

2. no, the diagram clearly states there are no possible weapons for outermost pylons, if they were you would see them as an option for the loadout ... pylons arent just place where you mount the stuff, you also have to have supporting equipment for that pylon ... you know like cryogenic supply for the Sidewinder. just because there is mounting bracket at that plance doesnt mean you can actually put anything you want there and its an ATTACKER they obviously specced it to carry only two Sidewinders, same as lets say A7D that has buttload of pylons but can mount Sideys only directly to the fuselage ...

 

3. Jaguar is 10.0, Harriers are 9.3 and 9.7 and Buccaneeer is 9.0 ... why are you comparing those planes to 10.7 top tier that faces completely different opposition ? as for your question : Phantom is better CAS than Viggen purely because it carries more hardware, Viggen can carry only gunpods and nothing else... or bombs and nothing else or two missiles and two gunpods ... Phantom can carry EIGHT air to air missiles alongside the bombs. And against the Jag and Harrier Phantom has much higher payload (cmon the Harrier armament is pathetic ...) and ouperforms them in every way and Buccaneer ... subsonic unarmed bomber ... sure payload is nice but i doubt it would even get to the target at 10.7 before being obliterated either by Phantom/MiG or catch a missile from SPAA ...

 

 

1 hour ago, KekDermott@live said:

Still though 2 RB24J's and gunpods along with flares isn't bad for an attack aircraft. What I don't understand is why he thinks the AJ37 would be 10.7 seems more likely it would be 10.0 or 10.3

 

 

because performance wise its basically better in every way than F4E ... yes considering its very limited armament it would be more fitting at 10.3 which is funny as im the only one so far who chose the 10.3 in the polls above

[strv122 391]

The gunpods take up the same hardpoints as the flare/chaff and radar jammingpods so you cant carry both at the same time. 

personaly i think it would fit fine at 10,3 beacause of its very limited armament options

 

[KekDermott@live 552]

4 minutes ago, strv122 said:

The gunpods take up the same hardpoints as the flare/chaff and radar jammingpods so you cant carry both at the same time. 

personaly i think it would fit fine at 10,3 beacause of its very limited armament options

 

Seems pretty fair. Also can it mount both a gunpod and a countermeasure pod at the same time? Nevermind, what I am interested in though is wether they will add this or the AJS37 because that one can actually have missiles on the outer pylons

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by KekDermott@live

[strv122 391]

20 minutes ago, KekDermott@live said:

Seems pretty fair. Also can it mount both a gunpod and a countermeasure pod at the same time? Nevermind, what I am interested in though is wether they will add this or the AJS37 because that one can actually have missiles on the outer pylons

 

I have made a suggestion about the AJS-37 too it just has to be approved.

Edited January 23, 2021 by strv122

[KekDermott@live 552]

15 minutes ago, strv122 said:

I have made a suggestion about the AJS-37 too it just has to be approved.

Awesome.

[Milocat 4,857]

Very nice find, +1 from me.

[KekDermott@live 552]

18 hours ago, Asghaad said:

1. no its fully true, at 10.7 every braindead zombie that is dropping bombs is one more plane enemy has to outnumber the fighter pilots. And considering i have yet to see SINGLE air RB battle at 10.7 end by tickets despite having quite a few (hundred) of them under my belt i can safely say ground attack in air RB is IRRELEVANT meaning anyone trying to groundpound there is just a useless dead weight to the team and one more reason why NATO teams so often lose.

1. I don't disagree with you on F4 ground pounders being an issue at top tier, however the reason I said partially is because it's one of several problems which come together to make top tier an uphill fight for NATO teams. Additionally I don't deny that ground attack is next to useless infact I very much agree with you on it (it's why I scoff whenever people suggest strategic jet bombers could be added) I do disagree though that these people are just dead weight though as most attackers can defend themselves it's just that they shouldnt be going straight into the furball.  

 

18 hours ago, Asghaad said:

And if you consider Draken and Mirage to be worse than Phantom ...

2. Well considering the Phantom gets flares, RWR, good IR and SARH missiles, good all around performance and the best radar ingame yes I do consider it to be better then either the Draken or Mirage; the Draken lacks any advanced avionics or countermeasures and it has no bvr capability to speak of which severely limit it ingame (I played it just a few days on my friends account which is what inspired me to suggest the J35J). The Mirage (which I do have) is a bit better off because it has the R530 but still no RWR and only 3 missiles really hurt it's combat endurance (and thats not going into how fuel hungry it is with reheat). Now it's true that both of them are good dogfighters but the fact is that dogfighting is not the main form of combat at top tier anymore (as much as some people delude themselves into thinking it still is) if somone gets behind you with a really manuverable missile like the r60 or aim-9J it's pretty much over and thats not even mentioning getting killed by a radar guided that you had no idea about (because again, no rwr). Does the Phantom have any of these issues? Well no your flares give you an extra line of defence against IR missiles, RWR will warn you of radar, you have 8 missiles giving you more endurance than any other aircraft and thats not mentioning the massive amount of ammo your gun has, all this in a plane with good all around performance; so yes I do consider the Draken and Mirage then the Phantom.

 

18 hours ago, Asghaad said:

2. no, the diagram clearly states there are no possible weapons for outermost pylons, if they were you would see them as an option for the loadout ... pylons arent just place where you mount the stuff, you also have to have supporting equipment for that pylon ... you know like cryogenic supply for the Sidewinder. just because there is mounting bracket at that plance doesnt mean you can actually put anything you want there and its an ATTACKER they obviously specced it to carry only two Sidewinders, same as lets say A7D that has buttload of pylons but can mount Sideys only directly to the fuselage ...

3. Yes I very much know that specific pylons may only be able to accept specific equipment. However the pylons were actually going to be used for the RB28, but the RB28 isn't a great dogfight missile so it was never used for the Viggen. The problem here is that the pylons were only integrated with the RB28 and that problem wouldn't be fixed until the AJS37 when they were made compatible with the new RB74 missile.

18 hours ago, Asghaad said:

3. Jaguar is 10.0, Harriers are 9.3 and 9.7 and Buccaneeer is 9.0 ... why are you comparing those planes to 10.7 top tier that faces completely different opposition ? as for your question : Phantom is better CAS than Viggen purely because it carries more hardware, Viggen can carry only gunpods and nothing else... or bombs and nothing else or two missiles and two gunpods ... Phantom can carry EIGHT air to air missiles alongside the bombs. And against the Jag and Harrier Phantom has much higher payload (cmon the Harrier armament is pathetic ...) and ouperforms them in every way and Buccaneer ... subsonic unarmed bomber ... sure payload is nice but i doubt it would even get to the target at 10.7 before being obliterated either by Phantom/MiG or catch a missile from SPAA ...

4. And this right here is the shows the issue with your argument which is that you've only focused on this aircrafts potential in air rb while completely ignoring what it would be able to do in ground rb. Now as someone who has a lot of experience in both top tier air and ground I was rather confused by your points because the AJ37 is a ground attack plane so naturally we should be looking at what it is able to do in ground rb? Stranger yet you believe the Phantom is the best CAS jet because it carries the largest payload. Thing is, anyone who has a good amount of experience in ground rb with CAS knows that taking the heaviest payload possible is often a terrible idea because of how much it comprimises your manuverbility and acceleration, leaving you too open to SAM's. Additionally you didn't even metion how the Phantom is able to use AGM's either which are very useful for countering SAM's. 

Thing is these are the arguments an air rb only player would make, and just to confirm that I checked your profile; lo and behold you've barely played ground rb (much less gotten to top tier).

Look I mean no offense here but you have no expirience doing CAS, which pretty much invalidates any points you have towards the subject (not that it stops you from having an opinion) so I'm just going to explain a few things to you:

 

1. Doing close air support in ground rb (especially at top tier!) is not like bombing a base or ground targets in air rb. It has a much heavier focus on precision, timing and situational awareness; reasons for this include the lack of enemy markers, fewer targets, smaller maps and player contolled SPAA.  

 

2. Because of these factors taking the heaviest payload possible (for example a US F4-E's  7-1000lbs bomload) is often a bad idea because it greatly comprimises the aircrafts acceleration, manuverbility, top speed and it's lift. Additionally the heaviest possible payload is often impractical because in most cases it will not include weapons such as AGM's or rockets meaning the aircraft may not have a ranged option to deal with SPAA's.

 

3. At rank 6 a lot of aricraft get CCIP allowing them drop ordinance at a precise position, once again this invaliadates taking the heaviest amount of ordinace because the main advantage they bring, which is a large blast radius giving a higher chance of a kill, is not needed because you know exactly were about your ordinance will hit meaning you can take lighter ordinance (such as the American 750's) or rockets which have a much less adverse effect on the aircrafts performance.

 

4. Countering radar guided SPAA's (such as the Tuguska) can often be challenging because aircraft don't have tools to counter them such as chaff or anti radiation missiles (like the Shrike or Martel) but it is certainly not impossible; for one you have your rwr which helps a great deal in notifying you wether your being targeted or not, additionally flying low also helps because it confuses the radar. While this can be an issue (due to making bombing runs awkward) your ballistic computer can mitigate this, as long as you get the nose down.

 

5. The battle rating of an aircraft is not a good reference for it's capabilities in ground rb; for example the Draken is 10.7 however the 9.7 Yak 38 is a much more capable ground attack plane due to having a ballistic computer, rwr and it's ability to carry AGM's. 

 

6. An aircraft does not need to be supersonic to be good at CAS, at the most it needs to be able to get past 550 to 600mph whats more important is if that aircraft can accelerate up to that speed quickly and maintaining it while carrying. 

Nows theres various other things I could talk about (such as the importance of stability or spotting) but I think I'd rather not bore you with all details.

However I have a few other things left to say such as why I believe the Harrier, Jaguar and Buccaneer are all better CAS planes then the Phantom so let me get straight into that.

 

Harrier: As you pointed out the Harrier doesn't get much in the way of ordinance however what it does have is pretty decent manuverbility and extremely good acceleration and energy mention allowing to stay fast while manuvering however the Harriers biggest advantage is its VTOL capabilities which allow it to land at helipads and rearm (which btw only it and the Yak 38 are able to do) this cuts down on your time outside the combat zone by a massive amount and it neuters the issue of a small ordinance load; compare this to the Phantom yes it carries more but once you've used it all up you have to go back to the airfield and get back again it can take forever (by which point the match might be over).

 

Jaguar: Out of the three the Jag is a bit of a letdown because it doesn't have the advantages of either the Harrier or Buccaneer. But what it does have going for is its all around performance and it's still quite manuverble; admittedly though there are better options thankfully we will be gettin a later variant sometime in the future (which will turn it into an extremely capable light strike platform).

 

Buccaneer: Now this one I really wanted to talk about, overall I believe the Buccaneer is THE best ground attack aircraft in game right now; now to your typical air rb only player what I just said may seem like a joke but if you have any knowledge about it's flight performance and ordinance it's really not suprising why. First of this thing has an insane amount of thrust (to the point that it can out accelerate the American Phantoms) which allows it not only to acclerate extremely quickly but also maintain it's max speed (while carrying max ordinance), secondly we have it's manuverbility which are also good yes it can rip if you pull sharply at high speed but with enough practice this can be prevented point is the Buccaneer can outmanuver a lot of it's opponents, next we have it's airframe which (combined with it's wings, high lift devices and engines) give the Bucc an uprecedented amount of lift allowing it to be stable while carrying tones of ordinance, however I would say the biggest advantages the Buccaneer has over other aircraft is it's ability to carry three types of ordinance all at the same time (which no other aircraft is able to do) which gives it many more options compared to it's contempoaries. The other big advantage is it's ballistic computer, normally to activate CCIP you need to point the nose down the Buccaneer does not have this prerequsite; I can not understate just how much of an advantage this gives it as it allows you to accurately bomb targets while in a straight line at low altitude and it allows the Buccaneer to perform bomb tosses far away. Now yes it's nowere near as fast as the Phantom nor does it have a gun but considering what it's able to do along with it's intended role does it really need those? 

 

So thats why I believe these jets (atleast the Harrier and Bucc) are better CAS aircraft then the Phantom and I believe that the AJ37 will most likely be a better CAS plane then the Phantom aswell. Of course though if you disagree with me I look forward to the reasons as to why, but let me give you little parting advice; if your going to give opinions on ground attack planes and their use in the War Thunder don't just ignore the game mode were they actually have a practical use and (in most cases) are often better choices to take then fighters like the Phantom or Mig 21, additionally instead of just making assumptions about what aircraft are best in ground rb perhaps you should actually play the game mode and get to top tier, you can then use your newly gained knowledge to make reasonable opinions and explanations that are based on experience and reason not assumptions based upon a gamemode which plays quite differently, because as of right now what you say might as well be irrelevant.   

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by KekDermott@live

[Asghaad 2,476]

9 hours ago, strv122 said:

I have made a suggestion about the AJS-37 too it just has to be approved.

 

which means Skyflash, AiM9L and pulse-doppler radar capable of tracking several targets at the same time.

 

with those capabilities it will be a while before that plane can be put ingame

[Asghaad 2,476]

1 hour ago, KekDermott@live said:

Spoiler

 

1. I don't disagree with you on F4 ground pounders being an issue at top tier, however the reason I said partially is because it's one of several problems which come together to make top tier an uphill fight for NATO teams. Additionally I don't deny that ground attack is next to useless infact I very much agree with you on it (it's why I scoff whenever people suggest strategic jet bombers could be added) I do disagree though that these people are just dead weight though as most attackers can defend themselves it's just that they shouldnt be going straight into the furball.  

 

2. Well considering the Phantom gets flares, RWR, good IR and SARH missiles, good all around performance and the best radar ingame yes I do consider it to be better then either the Draken or Mirage; the Draken lacks any advanced avionics or countermeasures and it has no bvr capability to speak of which severely limit it ingame (I played it just a few days on my friends account which is what inspired me to suggest the J35J). The Mirage (which I do have) is a bit better off because it has the R530 but still no RWR and only 3 missiles really hurt it's combat endurance (and thats not going into how fuel hungry it is with reheat). Now it's true that both of them are good dogfighters but the fact is that dogfighting is not the main form of combat at top tier anymore (as much as some people delude themselves into thinking it still is) if somone gets behind you with a really manuverable missile like the r60 or aim-9J it's pretty much over and thats not even mentioning getting killed by a radar guided that you had no idea about (because again, no rwr). Does the Phantom have any of these issues? Well no your flares give you an extra line of defence against IR missiles, RWR will warn you of radar, you have 8 missiles giving you more endurance than any other aircraft and thats not mentioning the massive amount of ammo your gun has, all this in a plane with good all around performance; so yes I do consider the Draken and Mirage then the Phantom.

 

3. Yes I very much know that specific pylons may only be able to accept specific equipment. However the pylons were actually going to be used for the RB28, but the RB28 isn't a great dogfight missile so it was never used for the Viggen. The problem here is that the pylons were only integrated with the RB28 and that problem wouldn't be fixed until the AJS37 when they were made compatible with the new RB74 missile.

4. And this right here is the shows the issue with your argument which is that you've only focused on this aircrafts potential in air rb while completely ignoring what it would be able to do in ground rb. Now as someone who has a lot of experience in both top tier air and ground I was rather confused by your points because the AJ37 is a ground attack plane so naturally we should be looking at what it is able to do in ground rb? Stranger yet you believe the Phantom is the best CAS jet because it carries the largest payload. Thing is, anyone who has a good amount of experience in ground rb with CAS knows that taking the heaviest payload possible is often a terrible idea because of how much it comprimises your manuverbility and acceleration, leaving you too open to SAM's. Additionally you didn't even metion how the Phantom is able to use AGM's either which are very useful for countering SAM's. 

Thing is these are the arguments an air rb only player would make, and just to confirm that I checked your profile; lo and behold you've barely played ground rb (much less gotten to top tier).

Look I mean no offense here but you have no expirience doing CAS, which pretty much invalidates any points you have towards the subject (not that it stops you from having an opinion) so I'm just going to explain a few things to you:

 

1. Doing close air support in ground rb (especially at top tier!) is not like bombing a base or ground targets in air rb. It has a much heavier focus on precision, timing and situational awareness; reasons for this include the lack of enemy markers, fewer targets, smaller maps and player contolled SPAA.  

 

2. Because of these factors taking the heaviest payload possible (for example a US F4-E's  7-1000lbs bomload) is often a bad idea because it greatly comprimises the aircrafts acceleration, manuverbility, top speed and it's lift. Additionally the heaviest possible payload is often impractical because in most cases it will not include weapons such as AGM's or rockets meaning the aircraft may not have a ranged option to deal with SPAA's.

 

3. At rank 6 a lot of aricraft get CCIP allowing them drop ordinance at a precise position, once again this invaliadates taking the heaviest amount of ordinace because the main advantage they bring, which is a large blast radius giving a higher chance of a kill, is not needed because you know exactly were about your ordinance will hit meaning you can take lighter ordinance (such as the American 750's) or rockets which have a much less adverse effect on the aircrafts performance.

 

4. Countering radar guided SPAA's (such as the Tuguska) can often be challenging because aircraft don't have tools to counter them such as chaff or anti radiation missiles (like the Shrike or Martel) but it is certainly not impossible; for one you have your rwr which helps a great deal in notifying you wether your being targeted or not, additionally flying low also helps because it confuses the radar. While this can be an issue (due to making bombing runs awkward) your ballistic computer can mitigate this, as long as you get the nose down.

 

5. The battle rating of an aircraft is not a good reference for it's capabilities in ground rb; for example the Draken is 10.7 however the 9.7 Yak 38 is a much more capable ground attack plane due to having a ballistic computer, rwr and it's ability to carry AGM's. 

 

6. An aircraft does not need to be supersonic to be good at CAS, at the most it needs to be able to get past 550 to 600mph whats more important is if that aircraft can accelerate up to that speed quickly and maintaining it while carrying. 

Nows theres various other things I could talk about (such as the importance of stability or spotting) but I think I'd rather not bore you with all details.

However I have a few other things left to say such as why I believe the Harrier, Jaguar and Buccaneer are all better CAS planes then the Phantom so let me get straight into that.

 

Harrier: As you pointed out the Harrier doesn't get much in the way of ordinance however what it does have is pretty decent manuverbility and extremely good acceleration and energy mention allowing to stay fast while manuvering however the Harriers biggest advantage is its VTOL capabilities which allow it to land at helipads and rearm (which btw only it and the Yak 38 are able to do) this cuts down on your time outside the combat zone by a massive amount and it neuters the issue of a small ordinance load; compare this to the Phantom yes it carries more but once you've used it all up you have to go back to the airfield and get back again it can take forever (by which point the match might be over).

 

Jaguar: Out of the three the Jag is a bit of a letdown because it doesn't have the advantages of either the Harrier or Buccaneer. But what it does have going for is its all around performance and it's still quite manuverble; admittedly though there are better options thankfully we will be gettin a later variant sometime in the future (which will turn it into an extremely capable light strike platform).

 

Buccaneer: Now this one I really wanted to talk about, overall I believe the Buccaneer is THE best ground attack aircraft in game right now; now to your typical air rb only player what I just said may seem like a joke but if you have any knowledge about it's flight performance and ordinance it's really not suprising why. First of this thing has an insane amount of thrust (to the point that it can out accelerate the American Phantoms) which allows it not only to acclerate extremely quickly but also maintain it's max speed (while carrying max ordinance), secondly we have it's manuverbility which are also good yes it can rip if you pull sharply at high speed but with enough practice this can be prevented point is the Buccaneer can outmanuver a lot of it's opponents, next we have it's airframe which (combined with it's wings, high lift devices and engines) give the Bucc an uprecedented amount of lift allowing it to be stable while carrying tones of ordinance, however I would say the biggest advantages the Buccaneer has over other aircraft is it's ability to carry three types of ordinance all at the same time (which no other aircraft is able to do) which gives it many more options compared to it's contempoaries. The other big advantage is it's ballistic computer, normally to activate CCIP you need to point the nose down the Buccaneer does not have this prerequsite; I can not understate just how much of an advantage this gives it as it allows you to accurately bomb targets while in a straight line at low altitude and it allows the Buccaneer to perform bomb tosses far away. Now yes it's nowere near as fast as the Phantom nor does it have a gun but considering what it's able to do along with it's intended role does it really need those? 

 

So thats why I believe these jets (atleast the Harrier and Bucc) are better CAS aircraft then the Phantom and I believe that the JA37 will most likely be a better CAS plane then the Phantom aswell. Of course though if you disagree with me I look forward to the reasons as to why, but let me give you little parting advice; if your going to give opinions on ground attack planes and their use in the War Thunder don't just ignore the game mode were they actually have a practical use and (in most cases) are often better choices to take then fighters like the Phantom or Mig 21, additionally instead of just making assumptions about what aircraft are best in ground rb perhaps you should actually play the game mode and get to top tier, you can then use your newly gained knowledge to make reasonable opinions and explanations that are based on experience and reason not assumptions based upon a gamemode which plays quite differently, because as of right now what you say might as well be irrelevant.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. the furball is happening right on top of them whether its in the middle of the map or not, its the cascade - groundpunders go for bases, people chasing free easy kills head there too to pick them off, the people that would climb and do normal engagement then dive onto the vultures and us fighter pilots are left few and spread out to face swarm of MiG21 SMT/ BiS outnumbered 2:1 ...

 

2. Phantom E is the best plane in the game when its on the offense and the WORST plane when in defense. Even Draken and Mirage can outrun F4E while being vastly more maneuverable than it.

 

yes lack of RwR on Mirage is baffling, there should have been upgrades like Mirage IIIE (better radar, more fuel, RWR ...) and Mirage 5 but i guess minor nation tech trees arent the priority so planes relevant to current meta will come long after they should have been ingame to serve as grind filler and nothing more ... (one more reason i would rather not clutter Swedish tree with AJ ...)

 

3. which means AJ will be limited to only 2 Sidewinders and only when not carrying bombs or fuselage gunpods

 

4. yes i abandoned the pointless struggle in ground RB when i learned that people shooting me through ten rows of bushes were simply turning off the foliage ... i dropped the ground and never came back and as far as i know the issue of low graphics giving advantage  (not as big as when i played but ...) is still there so i wont be playing ground any time soon...

 

only thing ill say is that if you are considering Harrier to have "good maneuverability" then you have been playing something quite different than i have because Harrier i have is absolute BUS that turns about as well as B29 ...

Edited January 24, 2021 by Asghaad

[strv122 391]

52 minutes ago, Asghaad said:

 

which means Skyflash, AiM9L and pulse-doppler radar capable of tracking several targets at the same time.

 

with those capabilities it will be a while before that plane can be put ingame

Thats the JA-37, 

The AJ-37 and AJS-37 has the same PS-37/a pusle dopler radar(pulse dopler isent modeled ingame right now)

The ajs 37 gets the abilaty to carry rb24j on 6 hardpoints, RB 74(aim9l) on 4 hardpoints, 4 RB 75(agm 65) and 2 RB 15 anti ship missile.

Like this

Spoiler

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by strv122