ground vehicle VAPE

[OsO73 491]

VAPE (Vehiculo anfibio pesado de exploración)

Today we'll be talking about 2 vehicles, the VAPE or "Vehiculo de anfibio pesado de exploracion" were 2 prototype 6x6 ordered and used by the argentine army during the 70s and 80s, this machines offered the best tech and quality for their time, being equipped with modern FCS and armament, they made for a tough opponent on the battlefield!

 

 

History:

Spoiler

This were a set of 4 vehicles requested by the argentine army during the late 70s and early 80s, an ifv (VAE) and an armed recon (VAPE), of the 4 machines 2 were made by Renault and ASTARSA (astilleros rio de la plata S.A) and the other by Panhard and TENSA (Talleres electromecánicos norte S.A). The VAPE prototypes differed in various aspects, the Renault was essentially a VBC-90 with a few changes, while the Panhard design was its own thing, both machines followed the same requirements, 6x6, amphibious, NBQ protection, 90mm gun, etc. Probably the most prominent different  was that the Panhard design was able to operate with 4 wheels (the 2 in the middle lifted up). All machines saw endured a really harsh and tough testing trough almost all conditions. Due to financial problems, the program was terminated in favor of the TAM/VCTP.

 

Specs:

Spoiler

Since we talk about 2 vehicles im going to put: Specs of the VAPE 1/Specs of the VAPE 2  

Crew: 3 (both)

Dimensions:

Length: 8,135m (VAPE-1) /  8,245m (VAPE-2) 

Width: 2,5m (VAPE-1)   /  2,5m (VAPE-2)

Height: 2,552m (VAPE-1) / 2,828m  (VAPE-2)

 

Mobility:

Max speed per gear (km/h):

               VAPE-1       VAPE-2

      1       12km/h       13,31km/h

      2       20km/h       22,45km/h

      3       34km/h       38,28km/h

      4       52km/h       54,19km/h

      5      74,34km/h   76,95km/h

      6       92km/h       100km/h

      R       13km/h      15,89km/h

 

Speed in water (both): 2m/s

Vertical obstacles:

         VAPE-1       VAPE-2

          0,60m         0,90m

Maximun elevation:

Frontal:  50% (VAPE-1) / 60% (VAPE-2)

Side:   30% (VAPE-1) / 30% (VAPE-2)

Turn radius on 2 wheels (VAPE-2 only): 7,8m

Engine:

Diesel V8 (8.840cc), Max power at 2.600rpm 187kw (254hp). 

Firepower:

90mm GIAT F4 CS (Super 90) (in stabilized turret)

Ammo: APFSDS, HEAT (OOC), HE (OE), Smoke (OFUM)

Ammo capacity: 20 Rounds (ready rack) 

Turret's mobility: 360º

Turret's rotation speed: 40º/sec (horizontal) 20º/sec (vertical)

Elevation/Depression (Both): +15/-8

Secondary armament: x2 7.62 Machine guns (turret and AA)

FCS: SOPTAC 23 (Day and night, with light intensification, laser rangefinder)

Armor:

6-8mm (both)

 

 

Images:

Spoiler

VAPE-1

 

VAPE-2

Both

 

Sources:

Spoiler

ARES magazine Nº3 (a lot of its information comes from the technical manuals of the vehicles)

https://www.zona-militar.com/2020/08/19/vae-y-vape-el-viejo-proyecto-de-vcbr-que-fracaso/

Blindados Argentinos, de Uruguay y Paraguay- Ricardo Fogliani.

 

Aux:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/France/Renault_VBC-90.php

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by OsO73

[ItssLuBu 1,803]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[OsO73 491]

15 minutes ago, ItssLuBu said:

Approved and open for discussion. 

Thank you so much !!!

[Solarmod 1,204]

I honestly feel an Argentine tree would work great in game, War Thunder needs a Nation for every continent, (If you count the British Commonwealth as Australia's continent, that is)

 

But I digress, this deserves to be in an Argentine tree.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Solarmod
derp

[OsO73 491]

29 minutes ago, Solarmod said:

I honestly feel an Argentine tree would work great in game, War Thunder needs a Nation for every continent, (If you count the British Commonwealth as Australia's continent, that is)

 

But I digress, this deserves to be in an Argentine tree.

Well, there argentine trees have some potential, but for the time being i would actually like to see them in the french tree, since both vehicles were made by Panhard and Renault. Both will make for amazing premium/event or even gift vehicles.

[Turra 1,439]

[El_Mentulis 90]

+1, but I think the the name is incorrect, it should be Vehículo Anfibio Para Exploración, instead of Vehículo Anfibio Pesado de Exploración, still a good post

[OsO73 491]

17 minutes ago, El_Mentulis said:

+1, but I think the the name is incorrect, it should be Vehículo Anfibio Para Exploración, instead of Vehículo Anfibio Pesado de Exploración, still a good post

Ive consulted a few sources and there are a few names given to it:

VAPE: Vehículo Anfibio Para Exploración 

VAPE: Vehículo Argentino Pesado de Exploración

VAPE: Vehículo Anfibio de aPoyo a Exploración

etc. 

In the case of finding proper evidence of the name ill change it !

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Looks like a TS90 turret, also found on the ERC-90 Sagaie 

[OsO73 491]

6 hours ago, Cedjoe said:

Looks like a TS90 turret, also found on the ERC-90 Sagaie 

The turret is called SAMM-TAMSE-TENSA AR90 both Prototypes used it and they probably were based on the TS90 considering both machines were done by Renault and Panhard.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

5 hours ago, OsO73 said:

The turret is called SAMM-TAMSE-TENSA AR90 both Prototypes used it and they probably were based on the TS90 considering both machines were done by Renault and Panhard.

Yeah they do look slightly different than the regular VBC and ERC chassis and the TS90 turret 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Cedjoe

[Cedjoe 5,482]

This turret actually looks like a hybrid between the TS90 we're receiving next update on the MARS 15 and the later improved TTB190.

The back of the turret is the same as the TTB190's which makes me believe it has the same autoloader, with the two holes to fill it

Spoiler

Other versions had the TL.20 turret apparently.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Cedjoe

[OsO73 491]

57 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

I should this turret looks like a hybrid between the TS90 we're receiving next update on the MARS 15 and the later improved TTB190.

The back of the turret is the same as the TTB190's which makes me believe it has the same autoloader, with the two holes to fill it

Reveal hidden contents

Other versions had the TL.20 turret apparently.

I can't see the image, but i kinda understand your point, i wish i had more info about the design of the turret, but all i got is that it was co-desinged/made between TENSA, TAMSE and SAMM it was given the name AR-90, its a lot bigger and simpler and spacious than the one found in the MARS 15. I might have to check if it did had an Autoloader.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

3 hours ago, OsO73 said:

I can't see the image, but i kinda understand your point, i wish i had more info about the design of the turret, but all i got is that it was co-desinged/made between TENSA, TAMSE and SAMM it was given the name AR-90, its a lot bigger and simpler and spacious than the one found in the MARS 15. I might have to check if it did had an Autoloader.

Yeah it seems to share lots of features with the TTB190 turret which was also built by SAMM and was itself an improved TS90 

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

The turret is indeed a TTB 190.

 

Same loading system for the two drum racks as well as a "straight" turret bustle

Spoiler

 

On the other hand , TS 90 has the rear of the turret slightly inclined

Spoiler

the TS 90 is also much more angular 

Spoiler

 

 

The VAPE turret clearly has the same back  and shape as a TTB190

Spoiler

 

 

The lack of the large gun mask can be explained by the use of the SOPTAC mantlet sight as you mentioned in the post

Spoiler

 

This would fit the information of this website claiming it had a SOPTAC sight, and OP's description

Quote

La dirección de tiro es una SOPTAC-23 con anteojos día/noche con intensificación de luz para el artillero con calculador de alza telemétrica laser de desvió y de pendiente.

(the russian wikipedia page is wrong, thy cant even read their own sources)

 

 

It is safe to rely on the TTB190's commerical brochure as it is likely licensed produced with technological transfer. Also you can safely say the smokes are X8 76mm and not x4 80mm.

The only thing im not sure of is the commander's roof mg. looks like a FN Mag, no the brochure's ANF1

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by nxdefiant001

[OsO73 491]

20 hours ago, nxdefiant001 said:

The turret is indeed a TTB 190.

 

Same loading system for the two drum racks as well as a "straight" turret bustle

Reveal hidden contents

 

On the other hand , TS 90 has the rear of the turret slightly inclined

Reveal hidden contents

the TS 90 is also much more angular 

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The VAPE turret clearly has the same back  and shape as a TTB190

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The lack of the large gun mask can be explained by the use of the SOPTAC mantlet sight as you mentioned in the post

Reveal hidden contents

 

This would fit the information of this website claiming it had a SOPTAC sight, and OP's description

(the russian wikipedia page is wrong, thy cant even read their own sources)

 

 

It is safe to rely on the TTB190's commerical brochure as it is likely licensed produced with technological transfer. Also you can safely say the smokes are X8 76mm and not x4 80mm.

The only thing im not sure of is the commander's roof mg. looks like a FN Mag, no the brochure's ANF1

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

First, thank you, thank you so much, your post actually gave me quite some help to identify and get more info about the AR-90 Turret. Secondly, the AR-90 is not quite a TTB-190 (has some differences), but we can agree its developed or derived from it. Now, where its the same and where its not? Pay in mind, im really limited with pictures, maybe around 15 to 20 pics that are VAPE related, so ill try my best to explain myself with those. ill be comparing the AR-90 to a TTB-190 that was fitted to a ERC-90 (museum example)

 

First thing that we address, is the shape of the turret, witch is almost the same for both (Excluding the Mantlet)

Spoiler

As you can see the overall shape is the same, both have that angle in the middle that kinda narrows the turret and the same shape at the back

 

 
Now the differences:

The first difference that i saw were the hatches in the back to load ammo to the Tank's carousel

Spoiler

As you can see in the VAPE the round doors open to the opposite direction, the other thing that calls my attention is the large hatch in the back, maybe to remove the ammo carousel? this is not found on the regular TTB-190

 

 

The front of the turret also has some differences:

Spoiler

Here we have the SAMM TTB-190 as it was presented and the AR-90 in the VAPE, note that both have the same Muzzle-brake (that also seemed weird to me, but its not the only one that used that muzzle-brake, since there were other prototypes that carried it)

In Green you can see the Sight for the gunner/ in Red the machine gun in the turret, this time the positioning stayed the same in both turrets/ Same case for Blue, the commanders periscope.

 

Again from the side there are another differences:

Spoiler

Firstly in Orange, the commanders cupola, in the AR-90 its smaller/ second in Blue, the Smoke launchers, the VAPE has x8 (x4 per side) although other versions of the TTB-190 have the 8 Smoke launchers/ Lastly in Red, this opening one side of the turret, in the VAPE it sits over the smoke launchers while on the ERC it sits at almost the same level.

 

Again, information the tank is...extremely scarce, ill try my best to get information or anything regarding the FCS and the Ammo used on it (ammo thats probably the one you showed in the SAMM commercial Brochure). Thank you so much Mister ! 

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

1 hour ago, OsO73 said:

The first difference that i saw were the hatches in the back to load ammo to the Tank's carousel

 

Not really, there is a TTB190 with the same configuration for the rear loading hatches (and the smoke grenades being the same). Even the overall turret shape is nearly identical for the rear.

Spoiler

 

 

Not the best perspective but it seems the side hatch is in the same spot as the VAPE's AR90.

Spoiler

 

The only majour difference is the use of the periscopic sight on the ERC TTB190 while the VAPE AR90 uses the mantlet telescopic sight. And the coax probably being two different MGs (ERC has a 12.7 here) as well the commander's cupola being different (that's already two different cupolas for the ERC, i guess it was easy for the AR90 to get another one). i almost forgot about the searchlight, there is no white light searchlight on the AR90

Edited March 29, 2021 by nxdefiant001

[OsO73 491]

9 hours ago, nxdefiant001 said:

 

Not really, there is a TTB190 with the same configuration for the rear loading hatches (and the smoke grenades being the same). Even the overall turret shape is nearly identical for the rear.

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Not the best perspective but it seems the side hatch is in the same spot as the VAPE's AR90.

Reveal hidden contents

 

The only majour difference is the use of the periscopic sight on the ERC TTB190 while the VAPE AR90 uses the mantlet telescopic sight. And the coax probably being two different MGs (ERC has a 12.7 here) as well the commander's cupola being different (that's already two different cupolas for the ERC, i guess it was easy for the AR90 to get another one). i almost forgot about the searchlight, there is no white light searchlight on the AR90

Well, thanks again!, there might be some slight variation but in the end they're almost the same (with exception of the FCS of course).I guess the VAPE didn't need a white light searchlight ? 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

On 29/03/2021 at 11:28, OsO73 said:

First, thank you, thank you so much, your post actually gave me quite some help to identify and get more info about the AR-90 Turret. Secondly, the AR-90 is not quite a TTB-190 (has some differences), but we can agree its developed or derived from it. Now, where its the same and where its not? Pay in mind, im really limited with pictures, maybe around 15 to 20 pics that are VAPE related, so ill try my best to explain myself with those. ill be comparing the AR-90 to a TTB-190 that was fitted to a ERC-90 (museum example)

 

First thing that we address, is the shape of the turret, witch is almost the same for both (Excluding the Mantlet)

Hide contents

As you can see the overall shape is the same, both have that angle in the middle that kinda narrows the turret and the same shape at the back

 

 
Now the differences:

The first difference that i saw were the hatches in the back to load ammo to the Tank's carousel

Hide contents

As you can see in the VAPE the round doors open to the opposite direction, the other thing that calls my attention is the large hatch in the back, maybe to remove the ammo carousel? this is not found on the regular TTB-190

 

 

The front of the turret also has some differences:

Hide contents

Here we have the SAMM TTB-190 as it was presented and the AR-90 in the VAPE, note that both have the same Muzzle-brake (that also seemed weird to me, but its not the only one that used that muzzle-brake, since there were other prototypes that carried it)

In Green you can see the Sight for the gunner/ in Red the machine gun in the turret, this time the positioning stayed the same in both turrets/ Same case for Blue, the commanders periscope.

 

Again from the side there are another differences:

Hide contents

Firstly in Orange, the commanders cupola, in the AR-90 its smaller/ second in Blue, the Smoke launchers, the VAPE has x8 (x4 per side) although other versions of the TTB-190 have the 8 Smoke launchers/ Lastly in Red, this opening one side of the turret, in the VAPE it sits over the smoke launchers while on the ERC it sits at almost the same level.

 

Again, information the tank is...extremely scarce, ill try my best to get information or anything regarding the FCS and the Ammo used on it (ammo thats probably the one you showed in the SAMM commercial Brochure). Thank you so much Mister ! 

I might be wrong but I think the TTB190 was actually developped from the AR90, which was itself developped from the TS90 to some extent, I'm not sure about the dates though.

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

4 hours ago, Cedjoe said:

I might be wrong but I think the TTB190 was actually developped from the AR90, which was itself developped from the TS90 to some extent, I'm not sure about the dates though.

are you sure it wasn't from the SAMM CS 90 ?

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Isn't CS90 an alternative name for the CN90F4 cannon? I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember the F4 being called Super 90.

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

On 30/03/2021 at 18:38, Cedjoe said:

Isn't CS90 an alternative name for the CN90F4 cannon? I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember the F4 being called Super 90.

 

Spoiler

Yeah 90F4 is sometimes called Super 90. i guess it is for export purpose for customers to easily differentiate it from the 90F1 and F3

 

 

Also to you OsO, Jane's Light Tank and Armoured Cars (1984) page 9 solved all your the problems

Spoiler

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by nxdefiant001

[Cedjoe 5,482]

I think I found the link between the TS90 and the AR90/TTB190, the SA90 from 1981 :

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Cedjoe

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Not sure if it was mentionned earlier, but while the Renault prototype is based on the VBC-90, the Panhard one clearly shares components with the ERC-90, and keeps the same wheel lifting system.

[OsO73 491]

53 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Not sure if it was mentionned earlier, but while the Renault prototype is based on the VBC-90, the Panhard one clearly shares components with the ERC-90, and keeps the same wheel lifting system.

I knew that the Vape-1 was based on the VBC, but i didn't knew the other prototype was based on the ERC

Spoiler

VAPE-1

VBC-90