squadron battles Squadron Battles - Recommendations from the Squadrons

[Grogdan 94]

On 10/02/2021 at 18:53, Grogdan said:

Recommendations from the Squadrons for improvement of Squadron Battles

 

The following contains suggestions for improvements to Squadron Battles, with input from the Commanders of 1MAW, 33GAC, 525th, ARMY1, AYAME, BGSTK, BigF, BofSs, CHADS, EUA, GRZLY, HRVZ, INDIA, KAiD, KHAOS, MACV, N, NAT0, NFMG, PROWL, RO6, STAHL, xTHCx, vTHCv, THICC, TRMC, Unit3, Unit4, V1PER, and WH1. Russian Squadrons: AFI, AVR, ARRC, BOYND, EGIDA, FGA, MoSB, MANUL, NEXT, SibAr, and WarCA also support the post. Members of these Squadrons have dedicated countless hours to the gamemode and to their respective Squadrons, and their insights into potential changes to the gamemode come from that experience. This represents the opinions of Squadrons from all over the Leaderboard, not simply the "Top Squadrons." It is our opinion that the issues faced by the Top 5 may not be the same as those faced by those competing for Top 100, and that opinions from all were highly important to the discussion.

 

Please note: below are preliminary suggestions where we believe improvements can be made that will have the greatest beneficial impact to Squadron Battles for the greatest number of Squadrons. At this time we are not proposing exact, highly detailed solutions though those may follow in the future. These were originally designed as talking points for a voice chat we expected to occur.

 

To that end, below offers a summary of the discussion points we believe to be of most importance. These include Airspawns, the Rewards System, Timezones, Promotion of Squadron Battles to the community, and the Points System. Other smaller talking points were included as well, that are aspects of others, not totally discussed out/agreed on, or of less impact. The full document can be found at this link. Below will be summaries taken from that as well.

 

Adjustment of Bomber Airspawns:

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Issue: Bombers are incredibly strong and potent. At some BRs especially, they make gameplay dull and nearly insufferable for ground.
Proposed Solution: Move bomber airspawns back over the runway. This allows more time for tanks to spawn in and disperse and for fighter interceptors to engage the bomber. The bomber will still likely get a run off, but will then be engaged or will be forced to turn away and wait for support from its fighters. This would balance its effectiveness.

Perceived problems with this solution: In the past when discussed, there was a hesitation to change this as it would also impact Tank RB maps. Tank RB and Squadron Battles make use of the same map pool and it makes sense why this is done. However, even Tank RB may welcome this change for those who complain about planes and close air support. Or a separate map rotation can be created for Squadron Battles.
 

 

Rewards System:

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Quick overview for those unfamiliar:
There are 500+ Squadrons who participate in Squadron Battles each season. Of those, only 20 (<4%) receive GE rewards and those that do get relatively little for two full months of playing the gamemode (for some Squadrons, their total activity is greater than the amount of time actually present within a season). The GE prize pool offered is distributed by giving the Top 20 players of a Squadron more than the rest. For a Squadron placing 3rd, a player outside of the Top 20 received 19GE. A player in Top 20 received about 120-140. Winning a single tournament, which can be done in just one afternoon and often solo, would yield 500. At best, it would take 4 seasons (8 months) for Squadron Battles players to see the same amount. Squadron borders and decals, which are other prizes awarded to some positions on the Leaderboard, are removed if the Squadron does not maintain its former placement. Removal of rewards from competitive play is not seen in any other games that we can think of.
Squadron Battles are played for the competitive atmosphere and team play for sure. For some, it is the only reason they still play the game. But it is hard to deny that these rewards are inadequate relative to work and dedication put in. Increased rewards or a change to the reward system would greatly benefit those across the Leaderboard, and bring in new players who are excited about competing. That alone (more interest in the gamemode) will solve many issues such as queue times, formation of teams especially in the lower/middle ranges of the Leaderboard, and more. This will be further discussed in the "Promotion of Squadron Battles" section.

Alts (alternate/secondary accounts, discussed in more depth later) also impact rewards. Their use and abuse is done in part to help Squadrons achieve better placement on the Leaderboard and therefore better rewards. These accounts also rob players within the Squadron itself from rewards by taking a piece of the overall pie. As requested later, a stance on Alt accounts needs to be made. Officially they are against ToS, but in practice no action has ever been taken on them. We can understand why, but a stance on them is important to future discussions about reward changes.

Issue: Rewards do not reflect the dedication and effort Squadrons put into the gamemode. It is hard to motivate players at all levels to want to play, and not just feel like they need to play.

Proposed Solution: There are many. Some include sticking with only GE rewards while others propose decals, aesthetics, and others. This forum post was written two years ago but still breaks down the system and a possible changes to it well. There are further proposals in the document provided, but regardless, the system needs to be changed.

Perceived problems with this solution: Though on paper it may look like Gaijin is losing money by handing more GE out for free, we do not believe this is what will truly happen. We have seen first hand Squadron Battles players contribute to the game with their own money. Many others would be even more inclined to if they received some GE as a starter. For example: If I received 1,000GE at the end of a two month season, I may be inclined to go get another 2,500 to get a vehicle I want or premium time. Hardcore Free-to-Play players will still wait of course, but its believed far more would do the former. As stated elsewhere, further promotion of the gamemode and more players getting into it would yield similar or compound results.

 

Timezones:

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Squadron Battles right now can only be played 14hrs out of a 24hr day. We believe the breaks this system offers are far better than being able to continuously play Squadron Battles. Burn out, queue times, and more would all be worse without it and concentrating everyone into two times makes sense. However, we believe these timezones need adjusting, and with more players hopefully getting into the gamemode with these changes implemented queue times should be less of an issue. As it stands right now, there are two windows (referred to as EU and US).
For players based in GMT, the EU window starts at 2pm/14:00 and ends at 10pm/22:00. The US window starts at 1am/1:00 and ends at 7am/7:00

For players based in EST, the EU window starts at 9am/9:00 and ends at 6pm/18:00. The US window starts at 9pm/21:00 and ends at 3am/3:00 (daylights savings shifts these one hour earlier).

 

The disparity should be apparent. The EU window is actually better for Americans than their own US window is. Except for those who work a full-time 8-5 job, who get out just as the window ends. The US window starts so late, that many need to be in bed a few hours after it starts to be ready for work the next day. The US window's late finish may be alright for the West Coast, and good for the Pacific, but most Squadrons cannot field a team that late into the US window. Those that can, are usually forced to stop as there is no one else to fight.

Issue: The current timezones are inconvenient for a large amount of the player base. The breaks are good and necessary, but it is believed that a change to the times would be beneficial.

Proposed Solution: Exact times and duration are up for debate, but the solution below shows an option that allows for the approximate amount of playtime/breaks but broken into timezones that better fit the majority of the player base. Each break could be extended to 3hrs even and still provide a good spread.

Perceived problems with this solution: None that we can see. More players are able to play the gamemode at more convenient times yet it still allows the breaks necessary to prevent burn out

 

 

Promotion of Squadron Battles to the Community:

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Issue: Squadron Battles never has a light shined on it, and much of the community does not understand the primary and initial purpose for Squadrons. This has been made evident in a number of ways, and we think that this would help many Squadrons as well as the gamemode as a whole. It goes hand in hand with many of the other "quality of life" suggestions

Proposed solution: The document goes into more detail, but this can take a number of forms. Videos detailing how Squadron Battles works, profiling different Squadrons, Q&As with Commanders, etc. But the fact of the matter is, much of the community is missing out on what is an incredible gamemode and something that can give players a real sense of purpose to play the game (helping player retention). Not just for Squadron Battles, but for playing the game itself to improve and gain new vehicles.

Perceived issues with this solution: None. Time would have to be spent improving the gamemode and showcasing it to the general community, but it is believed these efforts would yield incredible results for the Squadron Battles community as well as Gaijin and the game as a whole.

 

Points System:

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This has been a large topic of debate, with many thoughts and aspects to it. What we can all agree on is that the points system and Leaderboard may need looking into but we do not at this time have a solid proposal for how this may look. Aspects of the current system are good, others need change or clarification. Part of this discussion surrounds the use of Alts (alternate/secondary accounts) as well. It has long been known that alternate accounts are against ToS however lack of action has lead to many Squadrons deciding to use them. It is the feeling of many that a stance needs to be made. Either Alt accounts are not allowed and from xx/xx/xxxx date forward will be punished, or alt accounts are allowed and no longer against ToS. Depending on how you look at it, there are merits to both but the grey area surrounding them needs to be cleared so that either those holding out/not using them can start to or those using them can phase them out.
Another option, would be a point system that discourages their use. This could take a number of forms, and some ideas have been discussed but we have not landed on something we agree on or believe is worth proposing at this time. We simply all agree this situation needs to be addressed and a stance needs to be made. 

 

Conclusion:

We thank you for taking the time to read the above. To reiterate: the ideas here are nothing more than ideas and talking points we wish to pass on to Gaijin and the Game Developers. Speaking for myself, and I am sure many others, we would be happy to discuss and submit our thoughts in any way we can be it topics here, voice chats, or other forms. We make no demands or ultimatums, but we would implore you to take a serious look into improvements to Squadron Battles. There is a dedicated group who love it, boundless potential to expand it, and benefits for all parties involved if improvements are made.

To any Commanders, who after discussions with their Squadrons wish to have their names added to the above list, please feel free to reach out to me on Discord. My DiscordID is Grogdan#7021. Though I authored the document and post, these ideas are not only my own and instead have come from discussions involving the Squadrons listed above.

Again, we appreciate the time of anyone who took a serious read into it, and ask that you respond to the poll questions above and leave your own comments below. Remember, these are just ideas. None are perfect, nor have they been refined. They are to get the discussion started and were focused on overarching topics that would have a greater impact rather than tiny nuances, please keep that in mind and we look forward to seeing your responses and thoughts. o7
 

 A year ago, I authored the above. It was the culmination of many discussions with other primarily English speaking Squadron Commanders and sought to start a discussion regarding the future of and improvement of Squadron Realistic Battles. Efforts were made the first time around to get the Russian side of the community involved as well, but due to language barriers this was difficult. Since then, that has changed. A translation of the above was posted to the Russian side of the forums earlier today and is gaining traction as well. It can be found here: Russian Translation. This is where we stand a year later:

Airspawns:

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Since posting: The locations of plane spawns in Ground RB were pushed back BRs that included jet aircraft, forcing them to have a longer flight into battle than they did previously. This is similar to the change made with airfields, whose locations were also moved back some time ago due to the speed aircraft at this BRs where able to make.

Effects on gameplay: Tanks at all BRs now have slightly more time to spawn in and spread out before the bomber is overhead. However, the fact remains that airspawns, especially at certain BRs, are overpowered. This is especially true at 7.3, where the Arado C-3 defines and dominates the BR. It is a borderline necessity for any team and running four of them remains a common strategy.

Proposed Solution: This was a positive change and I commend Gaijin for making it. Though not specifically for Squadron Battles (previously requests to move airspawns back were met with hesitance as it meant changing Tank RB as well), the impact it has had on Squadron Battles gameplay has been beneficial.

Reward System:

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The Rewards System has remained unchanged. Please see the initial post and embedded document to see more details regarding the issue and proposed.

 

Timezones:

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The timezones have remained unchanged. Please see the initial post and embedded document to see more details regarding the issue and proposed.

 

Promotion of Squadron Battles to the community:

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The promotion of Squadron Battles to the community has remained unchanged. Please see the initial post and embedded document to see more details regarding the issue and proposed.

 

Points System:

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The Points System has remained unchanged. Please see the initial post and embedded document to see more details regarding the issue and proposed

 

In case the above was too much reading: little has changed.

 

The purpose of this is not to portray Gaijin in a poor light. I am sure there is more going on behind the scenes than we could ever imagine. Instead I wish to start an open dialogue and conversation. I had reached out to Squier prior to posting the original message. We had a productive conversation, during which he said: “For understanding: I am not directly involved in the development of Squadron Battles, but as a Community Manager I send feedback and suggestions to the developers (bug reports).” When asked what I should do regarding the document, he encouraged me to post here to collect information/feedback, after which point he “could send this thread to other developers (game designers).” I sincerely appreciate the time taken to talk to me and our conversation ended there.

Reading Squier’s messages, it appears no one is directly responsible for Squadron Battles. This is supported by the BR occasionally not being switched at the proper time. I would hope this isn’t the case and that the latter is simply forgetfulness but increasingly it appears that Squadron Battles simply has no one taking care of it. This does not seem to be the case with Tournaments (TSS) however, as they have received reworks to the ranking system, introduction of different tournaments, and sponsored tournaments. 

WarThunder uniquely has two competitive game modes but one, the one more accessible to more players, is left unappreciated. Tournaments that last a day offer higher rewards than two months of effort in a Top 20 Squadron does (at the time of writing, 580 Squadrons have points on the leaderboard). Tournaments may have more streaming potential, but Squadron's histories, rivalries, and more are equally interesting and colorful. At its foundation, Squadron Battles is an incredible game mode, with 128 players working towards a common goal with ever rotating BRs. All it needs is some attention and adjustments to alleviate stressors and issues that have long gone unaddressed. Even something as simple as the promotion of the game mode to the general community, be it in an article or YouTube video, could greatly help dilute the queue so that Squadrons lower on the leaderboard are not constantly facing much higher ranking teams. Changes to the rewards system to incentivize players further as well as potential adjustments to the timeslots would also increase this.
None of these change the core foundation that makes Squadron Battles unique, but greatly increase quality of life, as would gameplay changes as those discussed regarding airspawns. Maybe there are bigger changes to really revolutionize that game mode that could be beneficial, but we feel those are unlikely as smaller improvements have not been made or even considered.

 

Again, I would implore Gaijin to take a look at Squadron Battles and consider solutions to the above issues as it would be beneficial to them as well as the players. The game mode is fantastic and for some players the main reason they play the game, but it needs some love. I can understand hesitance to approach or discuss with the community as players can be demanding, critical, and unrelenting but I would be happy and honored to assist as a liaison between the two if that would lead to improvements to the game mode so many have dedicated countless hours to. 

I look forward to seeing further responses from the player base to the above proposals. o7 all

Edited February 12, 2022 by Grogdan

[SCOUR 2]

 Of course, you need to look at wishes, make changes, as it is done in random, competitive modes in games are very important, this allows you to keep players for a longer time, they become participants in this or fans, they have favorite teams, battles begin to look like football 

In any well-known, big game, the competitive part is very well developed, I think that the development of this is the key to the success of the game, scaling the number of players and their life time in the game, as a consequence, and the earnings of developers
, so we put likes on the topic - maybe they will start to change something - improve 

[Baikal18 95]

A couple of things I would want added and changed:

 

Air spawns: the air spawn system in SQB should be changed in a way to make it less potent. Jet aircraft that get an air spawn like the AR234 and Italian F-84 are able to climb and be above the enemy airfield before the other jets even have a chance to climb.

my proposed change for this: Have all jet aircraft spawn on runway while prop bombers spawn above AF and not near the battle zone.

 

Rewards: As said in a previous post i think adding decals/titles for people who did not get top 10-20 is a good idea. This would make more people want to play while also getting something in return whether it be a small amount of SL or a decal/camo.

 

And lastly I believe that they should change rewards every season so that more people want to come back and actually play SQB

 

 

 

[MappleArrow1 18]

One of the biggest problem with squadron battles in my opinion is that your squadron doesn't have to be top 100 and you'll fight top 5 squadrons just because your members have over 2000 points. If top 20 squadron could only fight up to top 150 squadrons alts would stop being relevant, as they're mostly used to bypass the point limit and fight low-ranked squadrons.

Secondly, I also don't think that airspawns are too big of an issue, as when there happens to be enemy bombers I just hold my spawn until they get destroyed by our fighters. However, I agree that moving the airspawn to above/behind the airfield wouldn't hurt.

Finally, I agree that rewards should be increased. Name a better way to make people buy ge than by giving them half what they need for the premium they want haha.

Anyway I hope Gaijin will at least consider these suggestions

Edited February 13, 2022 by SoloKiller456
said 5000 instead of 2000

[UrMumSaysHi 19]

Dear @Stona_WTor @Smin1080p, you two are the community managers, who at Gaijin is actually responsible for SRE? 

Are you even paying attention to the gamemode? 

Seems like the issues are not being heard

[reverend_CZ 21]

Hi guys, just wanted to ask if there is any response or progress. Has anyone responded at all? There was still some reaction, I see that some time has already passed, we have another season and nothing has changed.

Thanks for the response ( @Stona @Smin1080p @zerbah)

Edited August 31, 2022 by reverend_CZ

[CorsairJazzCat 120]

On 31/08/2022 at 10:42, reverend_CZ said:

Hi guys, just wanted to ask if there is any response or progress. Has anyone responded at all? There was still some reaction, I see that some time has already passed, we have another season and nothing has changed.

Thanks for the response ( @Stona @Smin1080p @zerbah)

There has been no official response from anyone at gaijin.

[CountBuggula 33]

Given the complete lack of...anything SQB related from Gaijin, I have to wonder if the change to remove missile markers from SQB battles for this new season was accidental.

[Alikiwi55 124]

Clearly there is huge room for improvement and equally clear is the work gone into thinking about and documenting this. Unfortunately what (seems) to be clear, is Gaijin just don't give a damn, maybe they are over-worked, or don't care? It would seem obvious that improving this area, would benefit them in the long run, improve the player base and generate more interest in the game overall. If only Gaijin would see that, but then have they even bothered to read all this? Certainly they must know this post is here, let's hope for a miracle, that they take the time to read it and take serious consideration of the suggestions. Surely it will profit them in the long run. So GAIJIN, what say you??????

[_Cullis 3]

Squadron battles can be incredibly fun, often way more than normal random ones. 
 

If they were made more rewarding in the SL / RP sense and more promoted, they could perhaps help retain people burned out from the basic game. 

[reverend_CZ 21]

I'm sorry that there is still no one here to communicate with the community. The worst part is that the SQB community is really big and still gets ignored.  Thank you gentlemen, you are ignoring the community nicely @ Stona @ zerbah

[Eironn__ 3]

Still no gaijin employee / community manager has read this even though it is one of the most viewed posts in the forums.

[GR_Zeus_GR 2]

They are ignoring their most loyal player base because they know we probably won’t stop playing…….

[沙城剑客 5]

我是一个东亚人，使用北京时间。

对我来说，晚上的联队战时间是北京时间22 ： 00 之后，很明显，这个时间是该休息的时间。我们要想在晚上玩联队战，只能牺牲休息时间。

我希望能略微调整一下联队战的时间，比如说改为北京时间 18 ： 00 开始。

这样的话，就会有很多和我一样使用北京时间的人能体验联队战的乐趣。而不是每到 22 ： 00 我组织联队战的时候，朋友们都纷纷表示马上要休息，从而拒绝我的邀请。