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The Royal Canadian Air Force CF-18 Hornet


CaSama9000@psn
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Would you like to see the Canadian F18 in the British air tree as a tier 7 jet?  

70 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see the CF-18 in the British air tree as a tier 7 jet (at some point in the future)?

    • Yes!
      50
    • No
      15
    • I'm not sure/ Maybe
      5
  2. 2. If added, where in the air tree should this jet go?

    • After the FGR.2 (fighter line)
      35
    • Somewhere else (state below)
      15
    • I answered No or Not sure
      20


CF-18 Hornet: Tier 7 jet suggestion

 

NOTE- THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION FOR THE ENTIRE CANADIAN BRANCH IN THE BRITISH AIR TREE. THIS SUGGESTION ONLY INCLUDES A SINGLE FIGHTER JET IN ORDER TO SUPPLEMENT TIER 7 JETS FOR BRITAIN

1367110560_canadaairforce.thumb.png.56c2

 

 

Introduction

 

The CF-18 Hornet was the winning candidate for the replacement of the F104 starfighter and Northrop F5. It met the requirements and was significantly cheaper than the F14 and F15 jets. Deliveries began in 1982, 98 single seat variants were purchased, 40 dual seats. Because this aircraft started service relatively early, players will have the chance to start with earlier missiles such as the AIM-7 sparrow. Any missiles deemed too advanced can be held back until the game is ready.

 

The Canadian F-18 will be an excellent air superiority fighter jet for Britain (if added) between the FGR.2 and Eurofighter typhoon and will diversify the tier 7 air tree. Unfortunately, the Panavia Tornado variants won't be enough to fill the role of an air superiority fighter, the two variants we can have are dedicated interceptors or dedicated strike jets. The later variants of the harriers and jaguars bring improvements to the ordnance, but minimal changes to the flight characteristics and playstyle. Tornados/harriers/jaguars will struggle against jet fighters such as the MiG29/Mirage 2000/F14/F15/F16/F18/Su27/Viggen which all carry comparable or superior missiles on much better airframes designed for dogfighting. 

 

1066240468_canadianf-18.thumb.jpg.0f57bf

 

(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CF18imp2.jpg)

 

2121352455_canadianf-18jet.thumb.jpg.617

 

(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CF-188730_(2750877491).jpg)

 

2086485677_cf-18falsecanopy.thumb.jpg.84

 

CF-18 with a "false canopy" designed to disorientate. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonnell_Douglas_CF-188_Hornet,_Canada_-_Air_Force_JP7645832.jpg)

 

Where would this jet go? 

 

After the Hawker Hunter/ FGR.2 (fighter line). The Javelin/ Lightning line appears to organise a line of interceptors, the Panavia Tornado F3 would be best suited here considering it's a dedicated long-range interceptor that never underwent any mid-life upgrades for air superiority. The Tornado GR1/GR4 unfortunately wasn't the multi-role answer, it was a dedicated strike jet (which carried 2 sidewinders and flares/chaffs on external hardpoints for defence, just like the jaguars). 

 

Specifications 

 

General characteristics

  • Crew: 1 or 2
  • Length: 56 ft 0 in (17.07 m)
  • Wingspan: 40 ft 0 in (12.19 m)
  • Height: 15 ft 4 in (4.67 m)
  • Wing area: 400 sq ft (37 m2)
  • Airfoil: root: NACA 65A005 mod; tip: NACA 65A003.5 mod
  • Empty weight: 23,049 lb (10,455 kg)
  • Gross weight: 37,150 lb (16,851 kg)
  • Max takeoff weight: 51,550 lb (23,383 kg)
  • Powerplant: 2 × General Electric F404-GE-400 afterburning turbofan engine, 10,000 lbf (44 kN) thrust each dry, 16,000 lbf (71 kN) with afterburner

 

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 979.5 kn (1,127.2 mph, 1,814.0 km/h)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
  • Combat range: 290 nmi (330 mi, 540 km) hi-lo-lo-hi
  • Ferry range: 1,800 nmi (2,100 mi, 3,300 km)
  • Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
  • Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (250 m/s)

 

Armament

  • Nine weapon/store stations (5 pylons: 1 under fuselage and 4 wing stations) carrying up to 13,700 lb (6,215 kg) of missiles, rockets, bombs, fuel tanks, and pods
  • 2 LAU 116 on sides of fuselage: deploy AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles; 2 LAU 7 on the wing tips: deploy AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles
  • 1 × 20 mm M61A1 Vulcan internal Gatling gun with 578 rounds, with a firing rate of 4,000 or 6,000 rounds per minute

 

 

Missiles and rockets:

 

Air-to-air:

  • AIM-9 Sidewinder
  • AIM-7 Sparrow
  • AIM-120 AMRAAM

 

Air-to-ground:

  • AGM-65 Maverick missiles
  • CRV7 rockets
  • AGM-88 Anti-Radiation Missile

 

Bombs:

  • Mk 82, Mk 83 and Mk 84 unguided bombs
  • Paveway GBU-10, -12, -16 and -24 laser guided bombs
  • JDAM GPS bomb guidance kits
  • AGM-154 JSOW glide bombs.

 

References

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_CF-18_Hornet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_canopy#History

Thank you :)

 

Afterthought- Another commonwealth member that operates the F-18 jet is Australia. However, I think the Canadian CF-18 is a better suggestion because Australia also operates the F18 super hornet which is quite an improvement from the hornet. Britain only needs such a fighter to fill the air tree between the FGR2 and Typhoon, the super hornet should be reserved for USA. Interestingly, there's a connection between the two countries. Australia actually sold 25 of its F-18 hornets to Canada. How amazing would it be to represent both commonwealth countries (in a way) through the Canadian F-18 hornet?

 

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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  • leroyonly changed the title to The Royal Canadian Air Force CF-18 Hornet - Successor to the FGR.2 in the air tree
  • Suggestion Moderator

Hello CaSama9000,

 

Thank you for your suggestion submission, I had to edit your suggestion which contained red text. Red text is reserved for moderation staff. Thank you for your understanding.

 

Open for discussion.

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36 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

Hello CaSama9000,

 

Thank you for your suggestion submission, I had to edit your suggestion which contained red text. Red text is reserved for moderation staff. Thank you for your understanding.

 

Open for discussion.

 

Hi, sorry about that I didn't know. Thank you for editing 

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-1 Commonwealth is not enough to justify this plane in the british techtree.

 

Its like giving Italy a F14 Tomcat because Italy and USA are both in the NATO.

 

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On 15/03/2021 at 01:03, ponnes said:

-1 Commonwealth is not enough to justify this plane in the british techtree.

 

Its like giving Italy a F14 Tomcat because Italy and USA are both in the NATO.

 

Thanks for sharing your opinions. I didn't use commonwealth as the main reason to have this jet, it's because Britain will lack a single supersonic air superiority fighter jet between the FGR2 and Typhoon. It's a tier 7 suggestion. This won't be the case for USA, Germany, China, USSR, France, Japan. I'm also aware Italy will struggle with jets in tier 7, I have no issue with us bending the rules to add more jets there. There have already been suggestions for Finnish and Danish jets in the Swedish air tree for similar reasons and that's fine.

 

There's many interesting international jets but only 9 nations in the game. Unless there are plans for an international air tree I think there's no issue adding export planes to one of the 9 nations if there are relations between the countries, one way or another. 

 

The Canadian F18 hornet was actually proposed as an alternative to the Atlas Cheetah by France players. I think it's a very good tier 7 suggestion for Britain.

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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  • Suggestion Moderator
On 15/03/2021 at 04:47, sh4d0w said:

+1, but first we need CF-5A.

 

CF-5_Freedom_Fighter_gate_guardian.jpg

 

On 15/03/2021 at 08:18, CaSama9000@psn said:

 

The Canadair CF-5A is a great looking jet!

 

I believe I have the manual for the CF-5A, so I could make a suggestion within the next few weeks if you all want. 

 

It'd be nice to see the CF-18 however, though its near identical to the US Hornet in its original config

Edited by Miki_Hoshii
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13 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

I believe I have the manual for the CF-5A, so I could make a suggestion within the next few weeks if you all want. 

 

+1

Thanks you.

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21 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

I believe I have the manual for the CF-5A, so I could make a suggestion within the next few weeks if you all want

 

That would be great! Coincidentally I just created a suggestion for the CF-5A but I haven't included any specific information such as the G-overload limitations...etc.

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+1.  When the time comes I would like to see the CF-18 (and the CF-5A for that matter) in the British/Commonwealth tree.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would love to see some Canadian aircraft in the game (especially in the British tree), the CF-18 in the FGR.2 line would be great, and also the CF-5A like others have mentioned. it would also be cool to get a homegrown CF-100 Canuck in the game (at a much lower tier than the CF-18 and CF-5A of course). anyways i hope that more people will see this and maybe we can get some more Canadian vehicles in the game!

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9 hours ago, A_Canadian_Brit said:

I would love to see some Canadian aircraft in the game (especially in the British tree), the CF-18 in the FGR.2 line would be great, and also the CF-5A like others have mentioned. it would also be cool to get a homegrown CF-100 Canuck in the game (at a much lower tier than the CF-18 and CF-5A of course). anyways i hope that more people will see this and maybe we can get some more Canadian vehicles in the game!

 

Exactly! If Canadian aircrafts are ever considered in this game, Britain is the best nation to represent them. Furthermore, Britain will need such a fighter jet before the typhoon. Can't really understand the negative responses regarding Canadian aircrafts in the British air tree. Italy is often raised as a comparison. I just found out Italy temporarily operated dozens of F-16A fighters (between 2001-2012) and F-16Bs. So let's make a realistic comparison:

 

Future jets in Italy

  • F-16A 
  • F-16B 
  • AV-8B Harrier II+ (rotary cannon and AMRAAMs)
  • Panavia Tornado ADV
  • AMX International
  • M-346 (light jet fighter, mach 1.2 capable)
  • MB-339
  • Panavia Tornado IDS 
  • Eurofighter Typhoon
  • F-35A Lightning
  • F-35B Lightning

 

Italy will basically have most of Britain's top jets, plus two air superiority fighters (F-16 fighting falcon variants), AV-8B+ and a light supersonic jet fighter (M-346). This is also excluding the possibility of other aircrafts from other nations. Yet people are against "commonwealth aircrafts" and often use the comparison between Italy and Britain to justify keeping the lower diversity of jets, which makes no sense as i've demonstrated. Italy has a clear diversity of jets. With Britain, several variants of the Harrier 2 or Jaguar is only a placebo effect. They won't bring new gameplay, the jets will fly the same as their predecessors and will probably be in a folder anyway. AV-8B+ is arguably far better than the BAe Harriers due to radar, rotary cannon and AMRAAM (only present in sea harrier).

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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1 hour ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

 

Exactly! If Canadian aircrafts are ever considered in this game, Britain is the best nation to represent them. Furthermore, Britain will need such a fighter jet before the typhoon. Can't really understand the negative responses regarding Canadian aircrafts in the British air tree. Italy is often raised as a comparison. I just found out Italy temporarily operated dozens of F-16A fighters (between 2001-2012) and F-16Bs. So let's make a realistic comparison:

 

Future jets in Italy

  • F-16A 
  • F-16B 
  • AV-8B Harrier II+ (rotary cannon and AMRAAMs)
  • Panavia Tornado ADV
  • AMX International
  • M-346 (light jet fighter, mach 1.2 capable)
  • MB-339
  • Panavia Tornado IDS 
  • Eurofighter Typhoon
  • F-35A Lightning
  • F-35B Lightning

 

Italy will basically have most of Britain's top jets, plus two air superiority fighters (F-16 fighting falcon variants), AV-8B+ and a light supersonic jet fighter (M-346). This is also excluding the possibility of other aircrafts from other nations. Yet people are against "commonwealth aircrafts" and often use the comparison between Italy and Britain to justify keeping the lower diversity of jets, which makes no sense as i've demonstrated. Italy has a clear diversity of jets. With Britain, several variants of the Harrier 2 or Jaguar is only a placebo effect. They won't bring new gameplay, the jets will fly the same as their predecessors and will probably be in a folder anyway. AV-8B+ is arguably far better than the BAe Harriers due to radar, rotary cannon and AMRAAM (only present in sea harrier).

The difference here is that Italy actually used those aircrafts.

Yet no one asked for a different nation aircraft in the ITT for no reason.
BTW I'm more than ok with indigenous Canadian aircrafts in the British TT but not with copy paste stuff.

Edited by spacesoldier117
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49 minutes ago, spacesoldier117 said:

The difference here is that Italy actually used those aircrafts.

 

Exactly, so we shouldn't use the future Italian air tree as comparison to justify keeping the British air tree with low diversity of jets. F-16A/B were leased to Italy but were technically in Italian service we could see those variants.  Italy, USA, Germany, China, France, USSR are set for the future with different air superiority fighters. That leaves Britain (which is a large nation in the game) and Sweden (suggestions of Danish jets have already been made). 

 

49 minutes ago, spacesoldier117 said:

Yet no one asked for a different nation aircraft in the ITT for no reason.

 

I hope not, two F-16 variants to supplement the rest of the jets is more than enough. 

 

49 minutes ago, spacesoldier117 said:

BTW I'm more than ok with indigenous Canadian aircrafts in the British TT but not with copy paste stuff.

 

Well then, if it's about copy and paste you would prefer the leased F16 variants not to be in the Italian air tree.

It's too early to see any of these jets but a suggestion beforehand is always worthwhile.

There are jets from commonwealth countries that can fill the gaps in tier 7 Britain, why preclude Britain (as currently represented in the game) from obtaining them?

 

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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Tornados ADV are 4th gen.   Britain does not need that. 

It can get AIM 120 that is more than enough

 

I see you also talk about "frame diversity" then imagine France it is stuck with only M2K

 

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On 01/04/2021 at 17:45, nxdefiant001 said:

Tornados ADV are 4th gen.   Britain does not need that. 

It can get AIM 120 that is more than enough

 

I see you also talk about "frame diversity" then imagine France it is stuck with only M2K

 

 

I don't think you understand. Tornado F3 is the RAF designation of Tornado ADV. Both Italy and UK operated them. 

 

Yeah, and the same missile is used on air superiority fighters. The tornado ADV/F3 is a dedicated interceptor. 

 

I'm not talking about the diversity of missiles. I'm talking about jets. The late CAS jets will fly the same as their predecessors and will struggle against air superiority fighters. Tornado ADV only had 1x cannon (low ammo and very low fire rate compared to the Vulcan) and isn't a dogfighter. 

 

France? Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, IAI Kfir, IAI Nesher, Mirage 4000, Mirage 5, Alpha jet, Super Etendard, Mirage G, Rafael B, Rafael C. Basically everything was designed as a manuverable fighter jet.

Edit- meant to say fire rate instead of velocity.

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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2 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

 

I don't think you understand. Tornado F3 is the RAF designation of Tornado ADV. Both Italy and UK operated them. 

 

Yeah, and the same missile is used on air superiority fighters. The tornado ADV/F3 is a dedicated interceptor. 

 

I'm not talking about the diversity of missiles. I'm talking about jets. The late CAS jets will fly the same as their predecessors and will struggle against air superiority fighters. Tornado ADV only had 1x cannon (low ammo and very low velocity compared to the Vulcan) and isn't a dogfighter. 

 

France? Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, IAI Kfir, IAI Nesher, Mirage 4000, Mirage 5, Alpha jet, Super Etendard, Mirage G, Rafael B, Rafael C. Basically everything was designed as a manuverable fighter jet


You will rarely get the chance to get into a dogfight once all-aspect IR missiles and LDSD are introduced.
IIRC Phantom FGR.2 and Tornado ADV were capable of both and carried up to 8 missiles. They should be competitive.

I am not sure what you think the UK will lack in jets ?
If it's air superiority fighters then France will struggle just as badly. Mirage 2000-5 was the first jet with true air superiority capabilities.
Mirage 2000C had capable avionics but only 4 missiles which is laughable when compared to the typical US air superiority platforms.

France will struggle with too few missiles and UK will struggle with bricky planes. Meanwhile the US will stomp on everything.

Are you worried that the UK won't be competitive or is it just that you also want to dogfight ?

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On 14/03/2021 at 23:18, CaSama9000@psn said:

Tornados/harriers/jaguars will struggle against jet fighters such as the MiG29/Mirage 2000/F14/F15/F16/F18/Su27/Viggen

 

So your argument is about 4th gen fighters in the brit TT

 

Yet you quote

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Super Etendard

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Mirage F1

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Mirage 5

Third gen aircrafts

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Mirage 4000

A radarless plane (aka future victim)

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Mirage G

A 3rd gen prototype without any armament

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Alpha jet

A goddamned Trainer... you have the BAe Hawk to cover that

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Rafael B, Rafael C

If you mean the Rafale, Britain has multiple versions of their 4.5+ too

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

IAI Kfir, IAI Nesher

Will end up in the US tech tree because Gaijin needs that money and those will not sell as well in the french tech tree. And that would upset the US playerbase.

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

'm not talking about the diversity of missiles. I'm talking about jets.

Hence why i said imagine France, the only 4th gen aircraft is one airframe. multiple versions of the 2k and F1 only have one canon.

And 99% of time, half the missile load.

You will not be the one struggling do not worry, you can spam your missiles

 

3 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

The late CAS jets will fly the same as their predecessors and will struggle against air superiority fighters.

France will have the same problem with F1s being relegated to ground strike and same SUE/SEMs being 3rd gen strike aircrafts

That's the sad truth about strike aircrafts we cannot change much about it

 

 

Hence there is no need for the UK to get the canadian aircraft.

You have a good frame with lots of room for a good radar and lots of missiles. you will only suffer in dogfights but look at F4s right now, they can dominate a game with their missile spam if played correctly.  You will be meta. not as much as a F14/F15 but you will be. You do not need that plane.

Edited by nxdefiant001
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4 minutes ago, nxdefiant001 said:

If you think one cannon is bad try 

 

So your argument is about 4th gen fighters in the brit TT

 

Yet you quote

 

Third gen aircrafts

 

A radarless plane (aka future victim)

 

A 3rd gen prototype without any armament

 

A goddamned Trainer... you have the BAe Hawk to cover that

 

If you mean the Rafale, Britain has multiple versions of their 4.5+ too

 

Will end up in the US tech tree because Gaijin needs that money and those will not sell as well in the french tech tree. And that would upset the US playerbase.

 

Hence why i said imagine France, the only 4th gen aircraft is one airframe. multiple versions of the 2k and F1 only have one canon.

And 99% of time, half the missile load.

You will not be the one struggling do not worry, you can spam your missiles

 

France will have the same problem with F1s being relegated to ground strike and same SUE/SEMs being 3rd gen strike aircrafts

That's the sad truth about strike aircrafts we cannot change much about it

 

 

Hence there is no need for the UK to get the canadian aircraft.

You have a good frame with lots of room for a good radar and lots of missiles. you will only suffer in dogfights but look at F4s right now, they can dominate a game with their missile spam if played correctly.  You will be meta. not as much as a F14/F15 but you will be. You do not need that plane.


To be fair F-14 has LDSD. First French aircraft with doppler radar will be Mirage 2000C.
F-14 was one whole generation ahead of everyone else.
UK has Phantom FGR.2 and it had doppler and LDSD IIRC.

I think he just wants something to dogfight in (which will probably not happen often anyway).

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1 hour ago, nxdefiant001 said:

Will end up in the US tech tree because Gaijin needs that money and those will not sell as well in the french tech tree. And that would upset the US playerbase.

 

Mirage derivatives will go to US? Extremely unlikely. The premium Vautour is already in France. Does US need any more air superiority jets / fighter jets?

 

1 hour ago, nxdefiant001 said:

Hence why i said imagine France, the only 4th gen aircraft is one airframe. multiple versions of the 2k and F1 only have one canon.

And 99% of time, half the missile load.

You will not be the one struggling do not worry, you can spam your missiles

 

I doubt the tornado will struggle if played correctly, it's a good jet. But the CAS jets certainly will. Seriously, what will a harrier do if a MiG29 or Su27 decides to engage? Even the Tornado is most likely finished. These air superiority fighters have extremely high thrust to weight ratios and manoeuvrability. During the wait for the Typhoon, it's only CAS jets or an interceptor. 

 

But like I said, it's not really fun to fly interceptors or CAS jets in AIR RB. An example of a dedicated interceptor is the lightning or F104 which is quite limited in what you can do.

 

1 hour ago, nxdefiant001 said:

You have a good frame with lots of room for a good radar and lots of missiles. you will only suffer in dogfights but look at F4s right now, they can dominate a game with their missile spam if played correctly.

 

Are you referring to the FGR2? The FGR2 is already struggling against F4Es. Seriously, you think it can cope against MiG29s? 

 

1 hour ago, nxdefiant001 said:

Hence there is no need for the UK to get the canadian aircraft.

 

Many players are looking forward to canadian aircrafts in the British tech tree. And there is a good reason in tier 7. 

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15 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Mirage derivatives will go to US? Extremely unlikely. The premium Vautour is already in France. Does US need any more air superiority jets / fighter jets?

 

Some Israeli Mirages were used by the US in training exercices for a while, so yes there is a chance this can happen.

 

15 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

I doubt the tornado will struggle if played correctly, it's a good jet. But the CAS jets certainly will. Seriously, what will a harrier do if a MiG29 or Su27 decides to engage? Even the Tornado is most likely finished. These air superiority fighters have extremely high thrust to weight ratios and manoeuvrability. During the wait for the Typhoon, it's only CAS jets or an interceptor. 


I fail to see how Britain getting the F-18 would magically make the CAS jets better.
Modern CAS jets have self-defense missiles for a reason.
They are not supposed to be a match for air superiority fighters anyway, and you shouldn't try to use them as fighters and expect to be competitive to begin with.
CAS jets are for CAS. Why does it matter that they will struggle against air superiority fighters ? They probably won't be at the same BR anyway.

What do you want in the end ?

 

15 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

An example of a dedicated interceptor is the lightning or F104 which is quite limited in what you can do.


Chinese and Japanese F-104s would like to have a what with you.
They are mostly competitive thanks to their missiles compensating for their lack of agility.
The other F-104s don't suck because they are interceptors, they suck because they lack decent missiles.

 

15 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Are you referring to the FGR2? The FGR2 is already struggling against F4Es. Seriously, you think it can cope against MiG29s? 


He is obviously talking about the F-4E and F-4EJ.
FGR.2 doesn't struggle that much. It's subpar but not hopeless. It also has the prospect of getting its doppler radar and better missiles in the future.
The Tornado ADV is very similar to the phantom family except it gets more modern missiles and doppler radar. You can expcet it to play in a similar way.
F-4E and F-EJ can dominate thanks to their large number of missiles, and the Tornado will be the same, just with different weapons.

 

15 hours ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Many players are looking forward to canadian aircrafts in the British tech tree. And there is a good reason in tier 7.


What makes the Canadian F-18 unique anyway ? If it's the same as the US F-18 then it probably belongs in the US tree anyway.
It has to be Canadian to go to the British tree. To me it doesn't look like anything special but I can be wrong.
What are its special features ?

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2 hours ago, MessInMines said:

Some Israeli Mirages were used by the US in training exercices for a while, so yes there is a chance this can happen.

 

Does US need any more fighter jets? If US gets a variant it doesn't mean France will get left out too. 

 

2 hours ago, MessInMines said:

I fail to see how Britain getting the F-18 would magically make the CAS jets better.
Modern CAS jets have self-defense missiles for a reason.
They are not supposed to be a match for air superiority fighters anyway, and you shouldn't try to use them as fighters and expect to be competitive to begin with.
CAS jets are for CAS. Why does it matter that they will struggle against air superiority fighters ? They probably won't be at the same BR anyway.

What do you want in the end ?

 

Have you read the introduction? F-18 can dogfight, it's a suggestion that can diversify tier 7 jets until the typhoon. I didn't say it would improve the CAS jets? It's to provide a platform to dogfight.

Really? Do you think a Jaguar GR3 with ASRAAM will be in a lower BR? 

 

2 hours ago, MessInMines said:

He is obviously talking about the F-4E and F-4EJ.

 

They're the most competitive, alongside MiG21bis, because there are no better jets yet. You can't compare how the phantoms currently perform and in the future. Air superiority fighters can and will fly circles around a phantom. They carry the same, if not better missiles.

 

2 hours ago, MessInMines said:

Chinese and Japanese F-104s would like to have a what with you.
They are mostly competitive thanks to their missiles compensating for their lack of agility.

 

So they're like the Hunter F6. What can they do if a MiG21bis decides to engage and is 1.5 km behind, approaching? Can the F104 dogfight?

 

2 hours ago, MessInMines said:

What makes the Canadian F-18 unique anyway ? If it's the same as the US F-18 then it probably belongs in the US tree anyway.
It has to be Canadian to go to the British tree. To me it doesn't look like anything special but I can be wrong.
What are its special features ?

 

It's too early to see any of these jets but a suggestion in advance is worthwhile. You guys argued against having the Atlas Cheetah in the British air tree because it's 25% Mirage 3 (if you consider the airframe 50% and interior/avionics 50%). And suggested the Canadian F-18 Hornet as an alternative tier 7 jet. But now it's not special enough to belong in the British air tree. Well you can't make everyone happy.

 

Edit- so I don't know 'how maths works'. Atlas Cheetah is 50% Mirage 3 airframe, most of the avionics, radar and interior electronics were upgraded. If you consider a jet constitutes 1/2 air frame and the remaining 1/2 the avionics/interior, the Atlas cheetah is indeed 25% or 1/4 Mirage 3. 

Edited by CaSama9000@psn
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5 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Does US need any more fighter jets? If US gets a variant it doesn't mean France will get left out too.

I never said it does. My point is that it's a possibility.

 

6 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Have you read the introduction?

yes I did.

 

9 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

I didn't say it would improve the CAS jets?

Yet you take them as en example of how Britian will suffer. :

Quote

I doubt the tornado will struggle if played correctly, it's a good jet. But the CAS jets certainly will.

 

 

11 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

It's to provide a platform to dogfight.

So in the end all you want is somehting that can dogfight ?

 

13 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

Do you think a Jaguar GR3 with ASRAAM will be in a lower BR?

Yes. Just like the current harriers are far from top tier despite carrying similar weapons.

 

 

14 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

They're the most competitive, alongside MiG21bis, because there are no better jets yet. You can't compare how the phantoms currently perform and in the future. Air superiority fighters can and will fly circles around a phantom. They carry the same, if not better missiles.

You are completely missing the point.
The point is that a sluggish aircraft that can carry a lot of good weapons is competitive. Tornado ADV is similar.
So the point is that Tornado can be competitive by playing in the same way the F-4E does.

 

16 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

So they're like the Hunter F6. What can they do if a MiG21bis decides to engage and is 1.5 km behind, approaching? Can the F104 dogfight?

The whole point of top tier missile meta is to not let people get on your six in the first place.
It doesn't matter if it's a mig-21 bis or a yak-38 behind you. Once the R-60 is coming your way you're toast.
F-104 uses the boom and zoom tactic, compensating its lack of agility with missiles.
You can't compare the F-104 to the Hunter F.6. Hunter F.6 is 10.0 and the only reason it's fighting Mig-21 bis is because of BR compression.
Point is that you don't need to be agile to be competitive in a missile meta.
And the missile meta will only get stronger going forward with LDSD and all-aspect IR missiles.

 

28 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

It's too early to see any of these jets but a suggestion in advance is worthwhile. You guys argued against having the Atlas Cheetah in the British air tree because it's 25% Mirage 3 (if you consider the airframe 50% and interior/avionics 50%). And suggested the Canadian F-18 Hornet as an alternative tier 7 jet

"You guys" doesn't include me. Atlas cheetah is 50% French. 50% airframe and 50% avionics makes it 50% French not 25%, if you know how math works.

 

31 minutes ago, CaSama9000@psn said:

But now it's not special enough to belong in the British air tree. Well you can't make everyone happy

Britain obviously isn't going to get a F-18 just because Canada uses them and Canada is part of the commonwealth.
That would be like suggesting Britain should get the Abrams because Australia uses them and Australia is part of the commonwealth

I don't have anything against indigenous aircrafts from commonwealth countries going to the British tree, like the Avro Arrow for example, but the F-18 here is just a copypaste isn't it ?

I'd even argue that F-18 is too good for the role you want it to fulfill and it will get pushed too high in BR, tho I will admit that depends on the variant and its air-air capabilties.
If what you want is a F-14 competitor then the Tornado ADV is exactly that. Very similar loadouts and capabilties, with the F-14 having an edge in dogfigthing. They are close enouth that the weapons could make one or the other better.

So in short :
- Missile platforms are competitive against dogfighting platforms
- Britain doesn't have to have a dogfighter to be competitive.
- Interceptors can be good fighters too.
- Canadian F-18 doesn't make any sense in the British tree as-is.

To be clear :
It's not that I don't want the UK to have a dogfighting platform.
It's just that trying to give the UK a F-18 just because you believe it will be necessary (and I respectfully disagree) and because commonwealth isn't the solution.

How about trying to make a Future British Aviation tech tree by researching prototypes, variants and cousins of British aircrafts that could be added in the future and going off of that ?
I made something similar for France a while back but haven't updated it in a while.

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