The bomber dilemma

[Caralampio 90]

Using a bomber is such a pain. For starters, bombing is quite boring. I know some people like them, but it isn't commonplace. I mostly do it when I want to spade the plane, since I try to spade every plane I have. I rarely take a bomber if it's already spaded and I have a fighter.

At lower BR's bombers can be kind of fun since you have to go low to get the ground vehicles and guns. High doesn't cut it.  The fighters you find have weapons that are not so strong. Bombers have a chance. All missions are ground attack.

Then as BR goes up, those damned objectives appear. At first, going high works. Side climb, or just straight climb, chances are 50/50 nobody will bother you up there. Boring as hell, but you can get the work done.

Then when BR goes higher, the bomber becomes obsolete. There is nowhere to go. Go low, fighters get you. Go medium, they get you. Go high, the blue sky is full of easy-climbing Bf-109s, Ki-61s etc. ready to tear bombers to pieces. It's almost pure luck when a bomber gets through. Memorable when it can make several runs without being bothered. Actually, from all those choices low seems to have the best chance of getting at least one run. Bomb, and die.

Up high it's pure death. I've even seen a fighter 10 km away, I'm near my spawn, he's near to their spawn. I just know, that Bf-109 10 km away is coming for ME. And he actually comes for me! I turn back toward my spawn. I dive to the airfield. But there's no getting away. The bomber is helpless. Probably someone that was planning to spawn camp and was coming anyway, but it illustrates the bomber dilemma.

It would seem that in many of these mid-higher BR games, teams resort more to trying to destroy all the vehicles and artillery on the front and win that way. Forget the objectives. It's a return to the state of the low-BR beginning. For this, fighters, attackers, fighter-bombers are more effective than lumbering bombers.

And the bomber is also obsolete in other ways. Most battles are Domination, where the bomber is completely useless, and Airfields, where it is nearly so. Add to this, that bombing isn't remotely nearly as rewarding (in SLs and RPs) as fighting. You can do really great, be the sole destroyer of the enemy objectives, etc. and the points you earn will still be less than what you would have earned by going in a fighter and shooting down 3 or 4 enemies. 

I believe that "objective" bombing should be reformed somehow to make bombing more viable, and also more logical. Or perhaps forgotten, since frequently people resort to destroying other ground units to win anyway. Bombing should reward more SL and RP, to make bombers more at level with the fighters. There should also be a warning, something to tell you that the upcoming mission isn't meant for bombers. Or maybe at least allow you to make some last-minute changes in the setup, exchange the bomber for a same- or lower- BR fighter.

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

My experience with bombers is 180° opposite to yours. For me, most of them work rather well in their role. Some are excellent. And bombers earn way better RP than fighters if you do it right. The only thing I agree with you is, that it can be quite boring on times. When it runs like clockwork.

[Alabama-Shrimp@psn 735]

The problem with most bombers is they the fight alone when of course they would have been in formation or at night with who knows how many others. As sue weak guns and blind spots aren't covered making you an easy kill. 

 

I've had games go both ways with dead as soon as you spawn to one's where you can get beases from high up it's very random. I don't like that low tier have to bomb tanks etc never getting chances to. Bomb bases but I don't see that changing any time soon. 

[Whitt1e 27]

The OP's words are exactly my experience with bombers. 

 

Beyond BR 3.0 I'd say they're useless without a sprinkling of good fortune. Even with that sprinkling, it's fair to say it's going to be a one-way trip. 

 

I was actually going to post about this the other day: I'm yet to see a single victory off the back of base bombing. This leaves high-altitude bombing as an xp farming / bomber spading sortie only, and even then you're chancing it against the fighters that can Saturn V their way to you. I *may* have seen a B-29 victory a few years ago before a swift BR shuffle, but that's about it. (Genuinely curious with this one if anyone has any examples of recent wins).

 

This leaves you with mid-low altitude bombing at the mercy of every player, superhuman AAA, spurious bomb fusing, and now the new aiming-reticule nerf/bug. Again, pretty much a one-way trip - if you even make the front line at all before being downed by a singular glancing .30 cal tracer tearing your wing off. 

 

Even after all this, I enjoy flying bombers and I don't mind the pace change (or boredom as some will call it). My aim when I first started the game was to fly the B-24, and I did well with it when I made it there before it was BR'd into oblivion. I fly them now in the hope I'll get through, but it's often fruitless - even after downtiering them into a more acceptable BR range, side-climbing, fighter cover, formation flying, the lot.

 

Bombers need a serious re-think. They used to work, and I feel were fairly balanced, then we logged in one day and that was it: they were replaced with large Papier-mâché ducks. 

 

They don't serve much more purpose other than being large canvases for decals, and I think that's a shame.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Whitt1e

[Kosher_Locust 120]

Some of it is how the game is set up, in real life it was fighters scrambling from the air field to get to altitude as soon as bombers were detected coming in, not starting out at a comparable altitude.  A lot is also how they're played, too many players try to fly their four engine bombers like Stukas and if low level daylight raids didn't work in Ploesti in 1943 they won't now.

 

The secret to success seems to be one of two things.  Either fly in formation--as multiple bombers or with a fighter escort; even one fighter keeping at altitude can do a lot of damage to attacking enemy.  The other is to use a throw away plane for the first wave or two, the furball starts to develop and gets lower to the ground, then pull out your bomber and climb as everyone's distracted.  In arcade get high enough and you're the Space Bomber, too high to get caught and magically reloading.

 

What would help overall is if the defensive guns were more lethal; which I have seen in the Tu-4, it's very hard to approach one and not get shot down.  There's the category in crew skill for that but after all this time I've only spaded completely a couple of crews and their planes and it has made a huge difference in reloads and tolerating G-forces, but I'm not really wanting to upgrade (pay) a crew to test if it will make a difference for bombers.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Kosher_Locust

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

22 hours ago, Alabama-Shrimp@psn said:

I don't like that low tier have to bomb tanks etc never getting chances to. Bomb bases but I don't see that changing any time soon. 

 

Any bomber can bomb bases. Just stick the bomber into a lineup of the desired BR.

 

The only question is: why would you want to do that?

 

20 hours ago, Whitt1e said:

it's fair to say it's going to be a one-way trip. 

I hope you are not telling me that you try to land a bomber in arcade?

 

Quote

My aim when I first started the game was to fly the B-24

The US T4-Bombers are a sad lot. Haven't tried it in a long time.

 

Edit: Just gave the B-24 a spin. I got her over the red airfield and survived the match unharmed. But what a stranded impotent whale that is. I remember why I left the US 4-engined bombers asap. Most bombers are more fun than these.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Dodo_Dud

[Tillbeast 10]

Just starting the bombers at a higher altitude would help. High enough so they can at least reach first base before fighters can reach them but not that high that they cannot be reached. Maybe lower the rewards for individual bases but add a 5th to maps to keep reward the same as now. Also I would lower rewards for planes not following there purpose. An air superiority fighter shooting ground targets is not doing as its designed. A multi role fighter should get balanced rewards but a plane that is designed to just shoot other planes should get more rewards when shooting a plane than a multi role fighter but less when shooting a ground target.

[VT_88 342]

You have to keep flying bombers.

You need to get reload up to max along with the other crew members.

You need situational awareness.

Bombers win games all the time especially at high tier.

Just keep at it.

 

Bombers can be used on domination and airfield maps.

Every map has a few ground units.

You can land on  an airfield.

One can even use it in Air domination.

[Caralampio 90]

On 21/03/2021 at 21:24, VT_88 said:

You have to keep flying bombers.

You need to get reload up to max along with the other crew members.

You need situational awareness.

Bombers win games all the time especially at high tier.

Just keep at it.

 

Bombers can be used on domination and airfield maps.

Every map has a few ground units.

You can land on  an airfield.

One can even use it in Air domination.

I know all this. But the dilemma is that in a bomber at mid-higher BR's (say starting at about 3.7) the world becomes a very scary place where getting through the fighters to bomb at least once, at ANY altitude, is quite the feat. And I have discovered that the so recommended up high approach can be the scariest. No friends to help you. No terrain to sometimes hide you from sight. No surface to try to get away by skimming the treetops. It requires to be lucky, that all the enemy fighters happen to be distracted by something else while you zip through and release that one bomb string. Rarely more than one.

I have used bombers in dominations but I stopped doing so, what they can achieve as ad-hoc "fighters" with their defensive MG's will usually give you less SL/RP that the cost of repairing the surely-to-be-lost airplane after the battle. They do have a marginal role in Airfields to destroy the few ground objectives, however these are usually done with in the first moves and after that the bomber is as useless as in Domination.

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

7 minutes ago, Caralampio said:

I know all this. But the dilemma is that in a bomber at mid-higher BR's (say starting at about 3.7) the world becomes a very scary place where getting through the fighters to bomb at least once, at ANY altitude, is quite the feat. And I have discovered that the so recommended up high approach can be the scariest. No friends to help you. No terrain to sometimes hide you from sight. No surface to try to get away by skimming the treetops. It requires to be lucky, that all the enemy fighters happen to be distracted by something else while you zip through and release that one bomb string. Rarely more than one.

I have used bombers in dominations but I stopped doing so, what they can achieve as ad-hoc "fighters" with their defensive MG's will usually give you less SL/RP that the cost of repairing the surely-to-be-lost airplane after the battle. They do have a marginal role in Airfields to destroy the few ground objectives, however these are usually done with in the first moves and after that the bomber is as useless as in Domination.

 

I guess you know it just better than those who succeed.  They must be doing it wrong, why else would they get through when true experts get shot down!

 

[Joren123 235]

This is just history repeating itself all over again. Bombers would often complain with the same old arguements. We start too low, we start too far forward, there arent enough targets, etc. Then one time, Gaijin listened. And it led the the darkest period of arcade xxx ever. Bombers started way in the back, and maybe almost double the altitude. Anyone else not remember 3 minute matches and Yer-2 spam? The suicide bomber lineups that would bomb out airfields in under 5 minutes?

Ultimately bombers started diving from their starting altitudes, and would pick up so much speed, if a fighter didn't kill the entire crew in the first pass, you would never be able to catch them till they tried to turn around at the end of their dive, if they even bothered to do so, they would often just J out and hop into their next bomber. It might not be as bad now with max speed being redline capped, but who knows.

I am sure this game lost a lot of players during this time, because it went on for a long time. And if this company is smart, it won't return to those days. Also, at the end of the day. what it always boils down to is wanting to be left alone to pve inside a pvp match.

What you should be asking for is a square hole for a square peg, instead of asking them to hammer it into a triangular hole. I mean assault aircade is basically fighters shooting down bombers. Mebbe can do something similar for bombers, idk.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Joren123

[Gilibran 226]

43 minutes ago, Joren123 said:

This is just history repeating itself all over again. Bombers would often complain with the same old arguements. We start too low, we start too far forward, there arent enough targets, etc. Then one time, Gaijin listened. And it led the the darkest period of arcade xxx ever. Bombers started way in the back, and maybe almost double the altitude. Anyone else not remember 3 minute matches and Yer-2 spam? The suicide bomber lineups that would bomb out airfields in under 5 minutes?

Ultimately bombers started diving from their starting altitudes, and would pick up so much speed, if a fighter didn't kill the entire crew in the first pass, you would never be able to catch them till they tried to turn around at the end of their dive, if they even bothered to do so, they would often just J out and hop into their next bomber. It might not be as bad now with max speed being redline capped, but who knows.

I am sure this game lost a lot of players during this time, because it went on for a long time. And if this company is smart, it won't return to those days. Also, at the end of the day. what it always boils down to is wanting to be left alone to pve inside a pvp match.

What you should be asking for is a square hole for a square peg, instead of asking them to hammer it into a triangular hole. I mean assault aircade is basically fighters shooting down bombers. Mebbe can do something similar for bombers, idk.

 

And there is the flaw in your post ;-) 

 

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

6 hours ago, Joren123 said:

This is just history repeating itself all over again. Bombers would often complain with the same old arguements. We start too low, we start too far forward, there arent enough targets, etc. Then one time, Gaijin listened. And it led the the darkest period of arcade xxx ever. Bombers started way in the back, and maybe almost double the altitude. Anyone else not remember 3 minute matches and Yer-2 spam? The suicide bomber lineups that would bomb out airfields in under 5 minutes?

Ultimately bombers started diving from their starting altitudes, and would pick up so much speed, if a fighter didn't kill the entire crew in the first pass, you would never be able to catch them till they tried to turn around at the end of their dive, if they even bothered to do so, they would often just J out and hop into their next bomber. It might not be as bad now with max speed being redline capped, but who knows.

I am sure this game lost a lot of players during this time, because it went on for a long time. And if this company is smart, it won't return to those days. Also, at the end of the day. what it always boils down to is wanting to be left alone to pve inside a pvp match.

What you should be asking for is a square hole for a square peg, instead of asking them to hammer it into a triangular hole. I mean assault aircade is basically fighters shooting down bombers. Mebbe can do something similar for bombers, idk.

 Yes, I've pointed out this historic episode many times too. But it gets worse after that: Then bombers were excellent money makers, with a literally taxing repair cost. You could quickly grab a fortune on these machines, if you played them right. But the deck diving YOLO-bomber players obviously could not, because repair would not be covered by the occasional first base alone. So they complained in these pages about repair costs until it got changed. Which was basically another nerf to the economy, as the value of bases got deflated. Now every bomber bob can pay for bombing, as he earns like 5.000SL upon a yolo-run. But now other players look for quick income replacements, as their rich fountains of SL run dry. So where is money on the map? In those many yolo-bombers. Which leads to the starting post of this thread.

The whole thing could be summed up with "there is no free lunch for you if you are not willing to pick it up".

 

Edit: "at the end of the day. what it always boils down to is wanting to be left alone to pve inside a pvp match."

(As to your likely meaning: I liked playing silent service games - and playing big bombers is much like that.)

But to the general idea of this last quote: There are three groups of resources on the map: The players, the environment and the situational income (awards). Now from a quick analysis, the more players play a pvp game only, the worse the overall economy gets, as income is limited (from kills)  and creates costs (repairs). The more players turn to environment income, the better the economy gets, as more cash flows in without costs. There is basically "free" SL (and RP) piled on the maps and the mechanics. Collect it or not? Same is true for the situational income too.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Dodo_Dud

[Tillbeast 10]

In the bad days of Yer spam you did not need to destroy any other bases bar the main airfield if I recall hence the 3 minute matches which were bad. You don't need to start bombers miles away or at a ridiculous altitude just start them high enough so they can reach the nearest base just before a fighter can intercept. Give the fighters an option of climbing to intercept the bombers to prevent them having free reign on the bases or not to so to join the dog fighting. At the moment a fighter can spend 30 seconds climbing and be at the same altitude that takes a bomber 2 minutes to reach even from their lower starting altitude. Bombers are just free kills to anything with 50 cal or cannons. At the moment suicide diving immediately is more reliable than getting altitude to at least get some research and lions and even then you are quite often killed before reaching your target. At the moment when climbing immediately I am reaching the nearest base 2 times out of 10 even with side climbing. I have even done a full 180 turn at start to climb up to 6k feet only to find fighters at higher altitude when i have turned around. I appreciate its a balancing act, if bombers start to high they can have a major negative effect on the game but at moment bombers are practically useless, Gaijin would be better of removing them altogether, reimbursing research, lions and eagles and just use npc bombers that are programmed to attack bases. 

[Blofeld_Returns 52]

I fondly remember one time, about a year ago, in my beloved Fw-200...

I was carrying the 6x 500kg bombs loadout, and three bombers who spawned before me completely wiped all three bombing points, leaving me to go directly for the airfield. Thankfully, at 2.7, Allied interceptors are few and far between - and since I managed to get my bomb load off and reduce their airfield to half health.

After flying all the way back to our airfield, and descending near vertically using the Fw 200's airbrake, I landed easily and rearmed.

 

After taking off again, I noticed that both teams had been reduced to one plane each - myself on my team, and a Yak-something on the other.

Now, I used a titch of logic in that I knew what the Yak would expect is that I would simply climb towards the enemy AF from my AF.

So, I checked the match timer, noted the almost 45 minutes remaining, and began circumnavigating the map right next to the border, climbing as I went.

After expending almost the entire match time, I found myself behind their airfield at around 3-4 km altitude. 

I dropped my entire bomb load at around 5 minutes to match end, and spotted the Yak desperately trying to intercept me. 

My bombs hit just after I began hysterically laughing in chat.

 

If that's not a bomber win I don't know what is!

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

33 minutes ago, Tillbeast said:

Bombers are just free kills to anything with 50 cal or cannons.

Depends on the bomber and its altitude.

 

33 minutes ago, Tillbeast said:

At the moment suicide diving immediately is more reliable than getting altitude to at least get some research and lions and even then you are quite often killed before reaching your target.

I guess you just failed Gaijin's marshmallow test.

33 minutes ago, Tillbeast said:

At the moment when climbing immediately I am reaching the nearest base 2 times out of 10 even with side climbing.

Turn off the fluorescent smoke then. It works much better than 2 out of 10.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Blofeld_Returns said:

So, I checked the match timer, noted the almost 45 minutes remaining, and began circumnavigating the map right next to the border, climbing as I went.

This is AB section. It won't happen.

[Sarin 2,329]

The reason why Gaijin always fail in balancing bomber is the fact that not all bombers are equal. We already have bombers that are powerful and can make or break the match if flown by skilled pilot, like Swedish B18 series, Me-264 and so on, some that can reach target reliably in a dive because they're either fast or pack at least decent rear-facing armament so they can be a threat to careless attacker diving on their rear, like Yers, Do 217, B-17...

 

And then we have the hopeless cases like Fw 200, PB4Y-2 that are simply pinatas.

 

If the bombers are balanced in the Gaijin's "one way fits all" system, then either some bombers become OP while most become viable, or we get few decent bombers and load of pinatas. We've seen both results.

[Blofeld_Returns 52]

On 30/03/2021 at 10:30, Sarin said:

Do 217

I fail to see your logic. The most rear-facing armament any Dornier 217 will ever have is 1x 13mm machine gun in a dorsal turret and one MG81Z in a ventral mount. 

Neither of these have as much stopping power as the .50 cal or the 20mm, which is obvious since unless you get a pilotsnipe (unlikely since armored windscreens easily defeat even the Armored Targets belt with just 13mm of pen), you usually have to dump around 100 rounds into an enemy plane for it to actually die. Of course, that does not include fatal engine damage - but that doesn't matter to the 217 because it is already dead from a single cannon or .50 cal burst because of its terrible armor.

 

I guess if you got pilotsniped you would think it had good defensive armament, but... honestly... not really.

[Sarin 2,329]

44 minutes ago, Blofeld_Returns said:

I fail to see your logic. The most rear-facing armament any Dornier 217 will ever have is 1x 13mm machine gun in a dorsal turret and one MG81Z in a ventral mount. 

Neither of these have as much stopping power as the .50 cal or the 20mm, which is obvious since unless you get a pilotsnipe (unlikely since armored windscreens easily defeat even the Armored Targets belt with just 13mm of pen), you usually have to dump around 100 rounds into an enemy plane for it to actually die. Of course, that does not include fatal engine damage - but that doesn't matter to the 217 because it is already dead from a single cannon or .50 cal burst because of its terrible armor.

 

I guess if you got pilotsniped you would think it had good defensive armament, but... honestly... not really.

 

They're fast and good divers, capable of reaching their target reliably even through hostile fighters if they time the dive right, and at least some pack good forward facing armaments that can give careless fighters a nasty shock.

[Joren123 235]

On 30/03/2021 at 11:56, Tillbeast said:

In the bad days of Yer spam you did not need to destroy any other bases bar the main airfield if I recall hence the 3 minute matches which were bad. You don't need to start bombers miles away or at a ridiculous altitude just start them high enough so they can reach the nearest base just before a fighter can intercept. Give the fighters an option of climbing to intercept the bombers to prevent them having free reign on the bases or not to so to join the dog fighting. At the moment a fighter can spend 30 seconds climbing and be at the same altitude that takes a bomber 2 minutes to reach even from their lower starting altitude. Bombers are just free kills to anything with 50 cal or cannons. At the moment suicide diving immediately is more reliable than getting altitude to at least get some research and lions and even then you are quite often killed before reaching your target. At the moment when climbing immediately I am reaching the nearest base 2 times out of 10 even with side climbing. I have even done a full 180 turn at start to climb up to 6k feet only to find fighters at higher altitude when i have turned around. I appreciate its a balancing act, if bombers start to high they can have a major negative effect on the game but at moment bombers are practically useless, Gaijin would be better of removing them altogether, reimbursing research, lions and eagles and just use npc bombers that are programmed to attack bases. 

It didn't end at just that. You forget that there were 6 Yers, and around 4-5 B-17s. Even when they added side bases, that just meant an extra suicide dive. Maybe not even because you would have at least 4-5 people doing it. In opposition to that were the japanese G8s that would could climb into outer space where even the german fighters could barely climb up to them and heavily armed enough to easily shoot down any fighter that had lost all its speed trying to climb up to them. And if they got caught, what would they do? Dive at 800mph, because wings didnt snap in AB.

Next came B-29s and Tu-4 with super massive payloads and the low BR B-57s and Canberras that noone in their BR could catch if you werent lucky enough to have any jet players. And even then some of the lower jets did not have a hope of catching up to them. I don't even want to talk about the IL-28.

It doesn't even have to be a heavy bomber. I own a BTD-1. Just that plane alone made me over 1.35m lions in around 126 flyouts and that can only carry 2000 lbs of bombs. Bombers were printing money, and at the same time killing arcade. You can still kind of see the effects all these years later where BRs 4-6 are sparsely populated because people just flat out stopped playing.

We get you. Some bombers like the PBY are flat out terrible. It doesn't even begin there. Recently I decided to spade both OSU in the US tree and I wanted to kill myself by the end. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of the heavy bombers don't fit any of the game modes. Lot of players are incable of successfully bombing a moving column of vehicles, or ones in a spread formation. Hence the diving and carpet bombing. But that too is a symptom of the peg not being designed for the current hole.

What you should be asking for is akin to what World of Warships has in the form of operations. Some kind of objective based map like air assault arcade. Except, y'know, not as crappy.

[Blofeld_Returns 52]

21 hours ago, Sarin said:

They're fast and good divers, capable of reaching their target reliably even through hostile fighters if they time the dive right,

I'll give you that. I've escaped several times from unfriendly fighters just using the 217's dive speed.

21 hours ago, Sarin said:

and at least some pack good forward facing armaments that can give careless fighters a nasty shock.

Yes, that is true; 2 Do217 bomber variants have 1x 20mm offensive and 1x 20mm defensive in the nose, making them especially nasty in Air Arcade.

However, considering the horrifically bad roll rate of the 217 and the fact that it's... well... a medium bomber, getting that 20mm on target is often extremely difficult.

If, in the one-in-a-million circumstance that I have built up a good head of speed and my target is stalled completely, hanging in the air, I will kill them with a short burst. Any aircraft will do that. But as long as you avoid that single 20mm (which I've gotten barely 2 kills with over 100+ Ground RB games, after dying both times), any of the Do 217 variants will become mostly helpless.

 

It is true that several 217's have a vast forward facing armament of 4x Mg151/20's and 4x MG17's, but that plane (as I can attest to) is fantastically difficult to get on target. It flies like a brick, it rolls like a geriatric albatross, and its 8x 50kg bombs might as well be carrying charges of sauerkraut for all the destruction radius they have. 

 

[Lexing_ 241]

On 24/03/2021 at 15:36, Caralampio said:

On 21/03/2021 at 20:24, VT_88 said:

 

I know all this. But the dilemma is that in a bomber at mid-higher BR's (say starting at about 3.7) the world becomes a very scary place where getting through the fighters to bomb at least once, at ANY altitude, is quite the feat. And I have discovered that the so recommended up high approach can be the scariest. No friends to help you. No terrain to sometimes hide you from sight. No surface to try to get away by skimming the treetops. It requires to be lucky, that all the enemy fighters happen to be distracted by something else while you zip through and release that one bomb string. Rarely more than one.

Hmm, idk. Literally every one of my 20+ games has led to friendly bombers bombing out the airfield to win. It's almost as if spawn camping is the most effective way to protect bombers.

[Sarin 2,329]

8 hours ago, Blofeld_Returns said:

I'll give you that. I've escaped several times from unfriendly fighters just using the 217's dive speed.

Yes, that is true; 2 Do217 bomber variants have 1x 20mm offensive and 1x 20mm defensive in the nose, making them especially nasty in Air Arcade.

However, considering the horrifically bad roll rate of the 217 and the fact that it's... well... a medium bomber, getting that 20mm on target is often extremely difficult.

If, in the one-in-a-million circumstance that I have built up a good head of speed and my target is stalled completely, hanging in the air, I will kill them with a short burst. Any aircraft will do that. But as long as you avoid that single 20mm (which I've gotten barely 2 kills with over 100+ Ground RB games, after dying both times), any of the Do 217 variants will become mostly helpless.

 

It is true that several 217's have a vast forward facing armament of 4x Mg151/20's and 4x MG17's, but that plane (as I can attest to) is fantastically difficult to get on target. It flies like a brick, it rolls like a geriatric albatross, and its 8x 50kg bombs might as well be carrying charges of sauerkraut for all the destruction radius they have. 

 

 

Keep in mind this is discussion about bombers in AB. Neither RB nor heavy fighter variants of 217 have any relevance here.

[Blofeld_Returns 52]

On 06/04/2021 at 17:43, Sarin said:

Neither RB nor heavy fighter variants of 217 have any relevance here.

I only included that information about the heavy fighter variants because you were referring to the 217 series as having good forward-facing armament - I reckoned you might have mistook a heavy fighter variant for a bomber variant, given that the only visual difference is the letter designation.

[Caralampio 90]

Well, I never knew the Yer-2 spam whatevers so I can't compare. I was just pointing out how frustrating it can be for a bomber. I still use bombers, and sometimes very succesfully, at times I even swoop all enemy bases by myself AND survive the match. But most of the time, I just plan for the one bombing run I will probably get and cross my fingers that the darn enemy fighters will let me at least that. 

I have of course been the fighter-wolf in this dilemma, so I know how helpless the poor little sheep are. What you need is to be lucky in that your particular space finds enemies ditracted long enough. 

In the real world, bombers would go in tight groups to defend each other. That is impossible in the game, especially in Arcade. Lone bombers were easy prey, and they are in the game. Even the vaunted B-17, if one strayed from the group it was dead meat.