Upper Tier German Fighters

[Kosher_Locust 120]

I've been playing some more upper tier, BR 7-9 games, and the German aircraft layout is kooky--Me-163's and Me 262's are fighting against F-86 Sabres and in some case Harriers.   

The 20mm 163 is BR 9, a whole tier above it's 30mm brother at 8, while the He 162 20/30mm pairs (the 30mm unavailable now) are 6.3.   The two highest tier 262's are the ones with rocket boosters but still have the sluggish turning 262 air frame.

 

No matter what plane is chosen the WWII German jets are armed with either the 20mm cannon, the short range, slow firing Mk-108 30mm, or rarely the longer range but still slow firing Mk-103, and unguided rockets.

 

Yes, I know in real life the German Air Force was kaput from 1945 until 1956 when it restarted with the Thunderstreak in West and the MiG-15 in East, both of which are BR 8.7, leaving a pretty big gap from 6.7 to 8.3 they've tried to fill with souped up 262's and the two 163's.

 

If it was up to me I'd redo the game so WWII planes fight against WWII, planes, or at least bring the premium Me 262 A-2a and He 162 A-1 into general availability again rather than marketplace.  I eventually bought the 262 and of course the price dropped right after that, I wasn't about to pay $1,000 for the 162 one guy was asking for.

 

To balance this without majorly changing the game I'd suggest the following:

 

Move the Me 262 A-1/U4 down to 5.7 or even 5.3.  I can usually score 1-2 kills with it but 32 rounds of 50mm is a more of a novelty, and is like the P-59, a starter jet.

 

Introduce the He-280, an early war jet that did fly but wasn't adopted, as a 6.3 or 6.7 to give more competition at that tier, especially against the Su-9/MiG-9.  it has triple 20mm cannon but ho-hum performance so would sit as better armed than the He 162 A-2 but not as fast or nimble.  

 

At 7.7 introduce the Ta-183.  This never took to the air but was oh-so close to flying protoypes when the war ended and is usually considered as the 262 successor had the war gone on.  It still has the quad 30's but much faster performance and can use 4 Ruhrstahl X-4 wire guided missiles.  We have the Ho-229 which only existed as three prototypes so this would be the same idea.

 

And at 8.3 introduce the Argentine IAe 33 Pulqui II, the "product improved" Ta-183 that Kurt Tank designed there with faster performance and quad 20mm Hispano cannon.  It's a 1950 aircraft so would compete against the lower F-86's, Yak-23 and so on.  The Italians have Romanian aircraft and the Swedish have the Finnish Pyörremyrsky so a German design from another country at a time when nothing else was flying would fit in the same way.

 

Anyways, armchair experts, have at it.

 

[Kosher_Locust 120]

......and I see a spawncamper has already weighed in.

[sir_skynets 151]

Sadly this is what we get by a developer that deglects everything that's not a premium/top tier vehicle.

[Caralampio 90]

You know that is not a bad idea, create a WW2 category with maybe a bit of spillover into say early 1950's (Korea) and a different category for post 1956 jets. Something like the Coastal/Bluewater division with boats.

While early prop planes might still hold their own against higher tier props, props and early jets can't really sustain a fight with the modern jets.

[anyuser 5,136]

On 26/06/2021 at 18:13, Kosher_Locust said:

 

Move the Me 262 A-1/U4 down to 5.7 or even 5.3.  I can usually score 1-2 kills with it but 32 rounds of 50mm is a more of a novelty, and is like the P-59, a starter jet.

 

You do know, that this plane can fly away from everything, when HT?
And you want to bring it further down so it can club 4.3 planes?
Just because you can hit a barn?

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Me 262 at anything under 6.3 is a hard no from me, the Ta 183 was never even built, you might be thinking of the P.1101 which was built and came very close to a test-flight, but I remember Smin saying at one point, that it probably won't be added anytime soon, if at all, since it was never armed. And the Ho 229 was actually built, but not completed, although it was introduced at a time where Gaijin was more lenient with what could be added, so in today's War Thunder, the Ho 229 would probably also not be added, if it wouldn't already be ingame.

 

If you want more variety in Germany 5.3 - 6.3, your best bet are either some more mid-late WW2 props, like the Me 209-II, Ta 152C-0 etc or as you said, the He 280 and some more He 162 and Me 262 variants, or if we really want to get spicy, the Pulqui II as you said, or maybe the native IA 58 Pucará, or even the Spanish HA-1112-M1L, which was a heavily modified Bf 109 with Merlin engine from the early 1950's.

 

Anything else is either paper, or probably doesn't fit into Germany, for example, you can't just put an Argentine F4U-5 or Meteor F-4 into the German tech-tree and call it a day.

 

The truth is, Germany didn't have the explosive super-prop and jet development post-war as most other major nations did, for very obvious reasons, so we have to make due with WW2 prototypes, pre-production and production models, or simply take planes from other nations, that don't have a tech-tree ingame, but that had German design influences, like the Pulqui II, HA-300, HAL HF-24 etc.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Stuhlfleisch

[Kosher_Locust 120]

3 hours ago, anyuser said:

You do know, that this plane can fly away from everything, when HT?
And you want to bring it further down so it can club 4.3 planes?
Just because you can hit a barn?

The P-59 can maneuver like a UFO and has a 37mm and 3 guns, but is only a 5.3 in Arcade, and there are several prop planes in the 3.3-3.7 range that also have 37mm cannons and backup guns/cannon.  This particular 262 only has 32 rounds of 50mm, and ends up fighting jets up to 7.0.   It may be able to fly away but unless a pilot is very good at surprise attacks from above the bigger fodder will be bombers and twin engine attackers more matched to it's tier. The 262 can't maneuver at slow speeds and as happened in real life fighters can dodge it with a quick turn.  And why yes, I can hit a barn, and sometimes the door.

[Thodin 6,784]

Arado B1 jet bomber would be also a candidate for a massive BR decrease. With bombs mounted its very slow (-180 km/h malus) and its completly unarmed. If the P-59 can be 5.3 .....

[Kosher_Locust 120]

3 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

Me 262 at anything under 6.3 is a hard no from me, the Ta 183 was never even built, you might be thinking of the P.1101 which was built and came very close to a test-flight, but I remember Smin saying at one point, that it probably won't be added anytime soon, if at all, since it was never armed. And the Ho 229 was actually built, but not completed, although it was introduced at a time where Gaijin was more lenient with what could be added, so in today's War Thunder, the Ho 229 would probably also not be added, if it wouldn't already be ingame.

 

If you want more variety in Germany 5.3 - 6.3, your best bet are either some more mid-late WW2 props, like the Me 209-II,  etc or as you said, the He 280 and some more He 162 and Me 262 variants, or if we really want to get spicy, the Pulqui II as you said, or maybe the native IA 58 Pucará, or even the Spanish HA-1112-M1L, which was a heavily modified Bf 109 with Merlin engine from the early 1950's.

 

Anything else is either paper, or probably doesn't fit into Germany, for example, you can't just put an Argentine F4U-5 or Meteor F-4 into the German tech-tree and call it a day.

 

The truth is, Germany didn't have the explosive super-prop and jet development post-war as most other major nations did, for very obvious reasons, so we have to make due with WW2 prototypes, pre-production or production models, or simply take planes from other nations, that don't have a tech-tree ingame, but that had German design influences, like the Pulqui II, HA-300, HAL HF-24 etc.

 

Good points, and yes the P.1101 (which had similar specs anyways to the Ta-183 with the wire guided missiles but only two cannon) was an in the metal albeit non-flying when captured.  The Ta-183 was supposed to have been selected as the emergency war fighter with 16 prototypes on order.  One source says prototypes were being manufactured, others say they only got as far as wind tunnel tests. but yes, no flying examples.

 

I can point out the 50mm 262 is already a 6.0 in arcade so 5.7 wouldn't be much of a drop but keep it from competing against 7.0 teams.

 

I like the idea of alternate "in the metal" planes but if I had my pick it would be the Fw 190D-11 which had 2 20mm and 2 30mm cannon.
 

But I guess for jets this may be as good as it gets, hoping for a He-280 some day.  Now for a real crazy plane that actually flew (and would be largely impractical) would be the Ba-349 Natter.  Kind of like what would happen if a He-162 and a F-89D had too much to drink one night and made an offspring.

7 minutes ago, Thodin said:

Arado B1 jet bomber would be also a candidate for a massive BR decrease. With bombs mounted its very slow (-180 km/h malus) and its completly unarmed. If the P-59 can be 5.3 .....

 

Agreed, it would make a killer bomber at a lower tier but at it's current BR it's main asset of speed on the getaway is largely negated.

[Thodin 6,784]

 

23 minutes ago, Kosher_Locust said:

Agreed, it would make a killer bomber at a lower tier but at it's current BR it's main asset of speed on the getaway is largely negated.

 

It just has two bomb drops. It never would be a killer bomber at any BR. Alot fighters have comparable stike potential as the Arado B1 has .....or even more and guns on top.

 

This jet bomber's max speed is 742 km/h without load. With bombs mounted its roughly -130 km/h max speed. So ...just a bit more than 600 km/h left. Is this 6.3 worthy?  

Edited July 5, 2021 by Thodin

[anyuser 5,136]

4 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

 

It just has two bomb drops. It never would be a killer bomber at any BR. Alot fighters have comparable stike potential as the Arado B1 has .....or even more and guns on top.

 

It got 3 Bomb drops.

Go back to the RB forums  

 

34 minutes ago, Kosher_Locust said:

The P-59 can maneuver like a UFO and has a 37mm and 3 guns, but is only a 5.3 in Arcade, and there are several prop planes in the 3.3-3.7 range that also have 37mm cannons and backup guns/cannon.  This particular 262 only has 32 rounds of 50mm, and ends up fighting jets up to 7.0.   It may be able to fly away but unless a pilot is very good at surprise attacks from above the bigger fodder will be bombers and twin engine attackers more matched to it's tier. The 262 can't maneuver at slow speeds and as happened in real life fighters can dodge it with a quick turn.  And why yes, I can hit a barn, and sometimes the door.

The P-59 is SLOWER then most of its prop enemies.

Even props that are on a lower BR are FASTER than the P-59.

The P-59 can't fight Jet tactics most of the time, because it can't boom and zoom its enemies. It can't fly away from them. It can turn, for some turns before running out of energy and it won't be able to get this energy back because of the not that good jet engines...

 

Every 6.X Me 262 will be the fastest or one of the fastest planes of the match.

 

If you can't change your way of flying to match it to jets, that is your problem and only yours. No reason to match BRs to your skill.

 

Most of my kills with the U4 were fighters. 

1. You want the ammo upgrade for full HE ammo and not AP

2. You want the 2nd weapon upgrade for reduced spread.

3. you want to go close at unaware or distracted targets.

BOOM

Its about being picky with your targets and using the speed to go for another one when it fails. Not turning like an idiot.

A Me 262, any Jet does only get slow as long as there is enough time and room to build up speed without any danger.

 

You could go for fast killing tanks with the 50mm and AP ammo too.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

12 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

 

It just has two bomb drops. It never would be a killer bomber at any BR. Alot fighters have comparable stike potential as the Arado B1 has .....or even more and guns on top.

 

This jet bomber's max speed is 742 km/h without load. With bombs mounted its roughly -130 km/h max speed. So ...just a bit more than 600 km/h left. Is this 6.3 worthy?  

 

No, I would put it about a 5.3, but for it's bombing ability I was thinking able to zip in and out taking out AA positions or tanks during Domination matches.  The load may be light, but getting the last few ground vehicles to let your team take the airfield would make it a lot more useful.  

[anyuser 5,136]

The Arado is fine where it is, as long as you know how to use them...

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by anyuser

[Kosher_Locust 120]

19 minutes ago, anyuser said:

Most of my kills with the U4 were fighters. 

1. You want the ammo upgrade for full HE ammo and not AP

2. You want the 2nd weapon upgrade for reduced spread.

3. you want to go close at unaware or distracted targets.

BOOM

Its about being picky with your targets and using the speed to go for another one when it fails. Not turning like an idiot.

A Me 262, any Jet does only get slow as long as there is enough time and room to build up speed without any danger.

 

Got all that and done all that.   And as I mentioned before I'm usually able to at least get a kill with what otherwise seems an impractical weapon, I may even recall shooting down a Vautour; I think we were both wondering how we got in the same match. Just what started this discussion is I find it a might hard taking on Thunderstreaks and Shooting Stars when I've only got one good jet option in the He-162.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

2 minutes ago, anyuser said:

The Arado is fine where it is, as long as you know how to use them...

 

Pretty clear to me you're just wanting to be difficult and contrary. I'm sure you have many mighty fine estimations of your skills, but this really isn't about just you, is it?

[anyuser 5,136]

2 minutes ago, Kosher_Locust said:

I may even recall shooting down a Vautour; I think we were both wondering how we got in the same match.

Because the MM won't produce such a fail we can safely say it was your fault by building a broken deck.

 

And with the U4 you will mostly fight piston engine planes. F-80As (you won't meet any other) are something you can avoid. F-84s are undertired for their power, firepower and speed. Simply because many US pilots missuse them as ground attackers and keep dying. Can't do much about them beside avoiding or hitting them hard when they don't expect it.

The worst enemy will be the Su-9 though (not to speak about the undertired Su-11).

 

If you drag it up in a higher BR deck - its up to you. But even when flying the first 7.3 jet, it would be your 4 or even 5 jet option with offensive arment. If you loose all your jets that fast on a regular base, you are missing basics.

12 minutes ago, Kosher_Locust said:

when I've only got one good jet option in the He-162.

And you got the 262A2a...

And maybe you didn't noticed, but you are doing better in that one then in the He 162...

If you call the 162 the better option above the 262A2a...

 

4 minutes ago, Kosher_Locust said:

 

Pretty clear to me you're just wanting to be difficult and contrary. I'm sure you have many mighty fine estimations of your skills, but this really isn't about just you, is it?

It is about using a plane right or wrong.

It is about not drawing any conclusion about a BR, if you are doing wrong with a plane.

The moment you talk about how well a jet turns when at low speed, you are only showing that you are doing very wrong from the start.

 

Planes that rely on speed are nothing new when you hit the jets. The first ones are the Mig 3-15 and the He 100. At their BR those planes are like the Jets.

Keep your speed high, attack targets of opportunity and zoom away or use your speed for getting into a good position against an dangerous enemy.

[Daffan 6,158]

43 minutes ago, anyuser said:

The P-59 is SLOWER then most of its prop enemies.

lol what

 

p51h holds same speed in straight line  and that's 6.3 kappa.

 

 

 

 

[anyuser 5,136]

18 minutes ago, Daffan said:

lol what

 

p51h holds same speed in straight line  and that's 6.3 kappa.

Only close to the ground afaik.

The higher, the better for the pistons. And it can't fly fast enough close to the ground to not get jumped from above.

[Daffan 6,158]

44 minutes ago, anyuser said:

Only close to the ground afaik.

The higher, the better for the pistons. And it can't fly fast enough close to the ground to not get jumped from above.

 

Yes and at 3k it's still like 560 IAS instead of its standard 610IAS, what's a 109 there? or any Italian plane? Or some RU perhaps outside of  the VK  UFO? A K4 without WEP doesn't even do 525, WEP of course is much faster than 525 but has a red engine and I did not use WEP on the P59 example either. I tried 5km on K4 and straight level was even slower than before.

 

It's a pretty good 5.3 overall. Probably better to play than Yak 15/17 lulz, especially if you have high ping and the 60-120 ammo with trash gun is useless on them.

 

 

[Lexing_ 241]

On 26/06/2021 at 09:13, Kosher_Locust said:

Move the Me 262 A-1/U4 down to 5.7 or even 5.3.  I can usually score 1-2 kills with it but 32 rounds of 50mm is a more of a novelty, and is like the P-59, a starter jet.

 

Terrible idea. The plane is extremely fast even for 6.0. The only thing holding it back is its acceleration which becomes a non factor if you stay fast

 

On 26/06/2021 at 09:13, Kosher_Locust said:

Introduce the He-280, an early war jet that did fly but wasn't adopted, as a 6.3 or 6.7 to give more competition at that tier, especially against the Su-9/MiG-9.  it has triple 20mm cannon but ho-hum performance so would sit as better armed than the He 162 A-2 but not as fast or nimble.  

 

I highly doubt that plane would do much considering the Bf109K will be vastly superior to it meta wise

 

On 26/06/2021 at 09:13, Kosher_Locust said:

At 7.7 introduce the Ta-183.  This never took to the air but was oh-so close to flying protoypes when the war ended and is usually considered as the 262 successor had the war gone on.  It still has the quad 30's but much faster performance and can use 4 Ruhrstahl X-4 wire guided missiles.  We have the Ho-229 which only existed as three prototypes so this would be the same idea.

 

And at 8.3 introduce the Argentine IAe 33 Pulqui II, the "product improved" Ta-183 that Kurt Tank designed there with faster performance and quad 20mm Hispano cannon.  It's a 1950 aircraft so would compete against the lower F-86's, Yak-23 and so on.  The Italians have Romanian aircraft and the Swedish have the Finnish Pyörremyrsky so a German design from another country at a time when nothing else was flying would fit in the same way.

I doubt Germany needs more competent 7.7-8.0 jets. The combination of two rocket boosted 262s is already enough.

[Jet_Leno 42]

It's only a "problem" in RB and then it's kinda realistic for Germany to have a gap so "meh" from me. Had fun spading the 8.0 163, skipped the 9.0 one because obviously, and likewise only ever fly the 262's in arcade (the boosted ones are a hoot there). You can jump right from the He162 to the excellent 15bis and grind all of rank 5/6 with a highly competitive plane so just don't crew the 262's unless you want the hard mode experience. Plenty of other trees are chock full o filler for rank 5 now so doubt it will get changed much.

[anyuser 5,136]

On 06/07/2021 at 00:22, Daffan said:

 

Yes and at 3k it's still like 560 IAS instead of its standard 610IAS, what's a 109 there? or any Italian plane? Or some RU perhaps outside of  the VK  UFO? A K4 without WEP doesn't even do 525, WEP of course is much faster than 525 but has a red engine and I did not use WEP on the P59 example either. I tried 5km on K4 and straight level was even slower than before.

 

It's a pretty good 5.3 overall. Probably better to play than Yak 15/17 lulz, especially if you have high ping and the 60-120 ammo with trash gun is useless on them.

 

 

Well, there is no red engine in AB.

But seems like they did some "rework" to the FM and the P-59 will fly very close to its top speed everywhere.

Not 5.3 material anymore.

 

I remember the time when 190Ds, 109K, P47M and several others where able to jump it and follow it for some time at low alt.

Now its more in line with the Kikka, while it should be compareable slow...

 

Seems like US planes need some boosting all the time.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

On 06/07/2021 at 21:27, Jet_Leno said:

It's only a "problem" in RB and then it's kinda realistic for Germany to have a gap so "meh" from me. Had fun spading the 8.0 163, skipped the 9.0 one because obviously, and likewise only ever fly the 262's in arcade (the boosted ones are a hoot there). You can jump right from the He162 to the excellent 15bis and grind all of rank 5/6 with a highly competitive plane so just don't crew the 262's unless you want the hard mode experience. Plenty of other trees are chock full o filler for rank 5 now so doubt it will get changed much.

 

True it is more realistic.  I've only had the 15bis for a short while and it does come down like a hammer. And yes, the boosted 262's can be a lot of fun.  

[Kosher_Locust 120]

On 05/07/2021 at 16:03, anyuser said:

And you got the 262A2a...

And maybe you didn't noticed, but you are doing better in that one then in the He 162...

If you call the 162 the better option above the 262A2a...

 

Unless you've been pulling my games from the server and watching or looking me up on Thunderskill, how would you know?  The 262A2a is "okay," two 30mm cannon aren't as good as four but it's better than nothing at it's BR.  The big problem is it's a marketplace only jet with increasingly limited availability.

 

The He-162 is a decent counter to the F-80a and I've had a pretty good track record with it against high tier props and first rank jets because of it's crazy maneuverability.

 

The 30mm He-162 is unavailable, one guy had one for sale for $1,000 and no, I'm not that vested in this game.  The 262A2a was an expensive plane when I got it, but at least the option to buy it was there.  If the 30mm He-162 and the 262A2a were both available as regular jets we wouldn't be having this discussion, although I'd still like a He-280 at some point. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Kosher_Locust

[anyuser 5,136]

11 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

 

Unless you've been pulling my games from the server and watching or looking me up on Thunderskill, how would you know? 

Your ingame profile...

The one you can open up for every player when in the hangar...

 

11 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

 

The 262A2a is "okay," two 30mm cannon aren't as good as four but it's better than nothing at it's BR.  The big problem is it's a marketplace only jet with increasingly limited availability.

 

YOU got it, YOU got more kills for each death with it then with the 162.

For YOU it is the better plane.

 

And the 262 is the better plane in game...