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Do you want maneuver kills to be rewarded?


melc311
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Do you want to see a basic maneuver kill system implemented rather than none at all? (For example, undamaged enemies crashing within 3km are awarded to the closest player)  

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  1. 1. Do you want to see a basic maneuver kill system implemented rather than none at all? (For example, undamaged enemies crashing within 3km are awarded to the closest player)

    • Yes
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    • No
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Yes, if you cause an enemy to rip their wings in a high-G maneuver or crash (either on accident because they were too focused on you, or intentionally because they crashed on purpose to deny you a kill) you are just as responsible for their death as you would have been had you shot them/launched a missile at them imo

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How can the game simply made this possible, without creating problem of kill attribution, and without causing server to go in vacations?

 

Have you ever thought of that?

 

from what i can think of, it's not impossible, but it's not worth Gaijin DEV Time and Server lags issues

Edited by Cpt_Bel_V
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Its quite easy actually...they already have the system for J'ing out. The closest person gets the kill, make the max effect radius like 2.5-5km and bam...easy, done. 

1 hour ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

How can the game simply made this possible, without creating problem of kill attribution, and without causing server to go in vacations?

 

Have you ever thought of that?

 

from what i can think of, it's not impossible, but it's not worth Gaijin DEV Time and Server lags issues

Its quite easy actually...they already have the system for J'ing out. The closest person gets the kill, make the max effect radius like 2.5-5km and bam...easy, done. 

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19 minutes ago, Southernbear said:

Its quite easy actually...they already have the system for J'ing out. The closest person gets the kill, make the max effect radius like 2.5-5km and bam...easy, done. 

problem is, it will not reward the player who caused the ennemy to crash,... or did i missed something?

4 hours ago, melc311 said:

a basic maneuver kill system

a kill mean a player doing something to eliminate his opponent.

 

so this simple system you talk about will not fullfill the objective to reward people making maneuver kills.

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1 minute ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

problem is, it will not reward the player who caused the ennemy to crash,... or did i missed something?

a kill mean a player doing something to eliminate his opponent.

 

so this simple system you talk about will not fullfill the objective to reward people making maneuver kills.

 

manuever kill = making enemy to crash ... whether it is by making him scared enough so he parks the plane underground or forcing him to stall or otherwise lose control it really doesnt matter, if you are in engagement with an enemy and he crashes, its a maneuver kill even if he lets say crashes on purpose (which is a favorite "technique" of the playerbase to deny the kill)

 

same thing with midair collisions, that is still a kill - suicidal one but it is...

 

regardless of a cause, the closest player from the crash should get credited with a kill and take the reward for doing so.

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9 minutes ago, Asghaad said:

 

manuever kill = making enemy to crash ... whether it is by making him scared enough so he parks the plane underground or forcing him to stall or otherwise lose control it really doesnt matter, if you are in engagement with an enemy and he crashes, its a maneuver kill even if he lets say crashes on purpose (which is a favorite "technique" of the playerbase to deny the kill)

 

same thing with midair collisions, that is still a kill - suicidal one but it is...

 

regardless of a cause, the closest player from the crash should get credited with a kill and take the reward for doing so.

which can't be 100% accurate,...

 

have you experienced an only 1vs1 in WT? 

 

come on,... it's not that hard to understand that this method ain't ok, as it will reward the closest one, instead of the actual player who did forced the ennemy to crash.

 

what if you shot a Sparrow or similar Medium range Missile to an ennemy which pull High G's and rip his wing doing evasive maneuver for your missile: the kill will not be awarded to you because of a "let's say F-5E" which is 2km closer than you.

would you be happy, to waste a sparrow like this? not more than today i guess, but you'll also be disappointed that another player got rewarded doing ABSOLUTELY nothing.

 

So,... please, tell me how do you think it's possible to have a reward system accurate, simple, and not overloading the already overloaded servers?

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

which can't be 100% accurate,...

 

have you experienced an only 1vs1 in WT? 

 

come on,... it's not that hard to understand that this method ain't ok, as it will reward the closest one, instead of the actual player who did forced the ennemy to crash.

 

what if you shot a Sparrow or similar Medium range Missile to an ennemy which pull High G's and rip his wing doing evasive maneuver for your missile: the kill will not be awarded to you because of a "let's say F-5E" which is 2km closer than you.

would you be happy, to waste a sparrow like this? not more than today i guess, but you'll also be disappointed that another player got rewarded doing ABSOLUTELY nothing.

 

So,... please, tell me how do you think it's possible to have a reward system accurate, simple, and not overloading the already overloaded servers?

 

 

i would be 100% happier to get my teammate a reward in fringe situation i NEVER experienced in my life rather than neither of us getting anything ...

 

or let me put it this way i would gladly take the 1 in 100 situation where the teammate gets the kill instead of me for another 99 where i make someone pancake and get nothing for it ...

 

lastly as was sayd the system already exists, all they would have to do is to lik the current "bail by J-out" system to crashes - no modifications necessary, just add a trigger for already existing mechanic to the crash = ZERO additional load to a server.

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3km would be waaaay too much... max should be 700m. Anything above that, never really was a crash in connection with a maneuver kill.

Would it not count the aforementioned case of someone ripping a wing due to missile evasion? Yeah, but as mentioned, the system can't count all cases. Overall, though, I don't care much. Can stay as is, or can be implemented, though again, at max within a 700m radius.

 

Best regards,

Phil

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29 minutes ago, Target1331 said:

3km would be waaaay too much... max should be 700m. Anything above that, never really was a crash in connection with a maneuver kill.

Would it not count the aforementioned case of someone ripping a wing due to missile evasion? Yeah, but as mentioned, the system can't count all cases. Overall, though, I don't care much. Can stay as is, or can be implemented, though again, at max within a 700m radius.

 

Best regards,

Phil

 

depends on the tier, there is difference when someone rips or pancakes in a prop and when he does it in a jet, 700m would be far too short of a range when supersonic jet can beat that distance in two seconds ...

 

and shorter the range the more space you are giving to people to intentionally crash...

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

which can't be 100% accurate,...

 

have you experienced an only 1vs1 in WT? 

 

come on,... it's not that hard to understand that this method ain't ok, as it will reward the closest one, instead of the actual player who did forced the ennemy to crash.

 

what if you shot a Sparrow or similar Medium range Missile to an ennemy which pull High G's and rip his wing doing evasive maneuver for your missile: the kill will not be awarded to you because of a "let's say F-5E" which is 2km closer than you.

would you be happy, to waste a sparrow like this? not more than today i guess, but you'll also be disappointed that another player got rewarded doing ABSOLUTELY nothing.

 

So,... please, tell me how do you think it's possible to have a reward system accurate, simple, and not overloading the already overloaded servers?

I don't see how it's an issue, the person who crashed will be just as dead and I don't see the problem with people getting more rewards from a match, the grind is rough enough, so why not ease it a bit. As for the sparrow example, I would be just as disappointed if another player got the reward as I would be if the enemy ripped and nobody got credit, it would make no difference to me either way. (Also people really shouldn't be ripping trying to defeat a sparrow, gentle crank to the right/left then a gentle crank in the other direction)

Edited by The_Baron3
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21 minutes ago, The_Baron3 said:

I don't see how it's an issue, the person who crashed will be just as dead and I don't see the problem with people getting more rewards from a match, the grind is rough enough, so why not ease it a bit. As for the sparrow example, I would be just as disappointed if another player got the reward as I would be if the enemy ripped and nobody got credit, it would make no difference to me either way. (Also people really shouldn't be ripping trying to defeat a sparrow, gentle crank to the right/left then a gentle crank in the other direction)

a Maneuver kill is due to players making the ennemy to do a mistake with the result of crashing in the ground or ripping it's wing.

 

so,... getting a Teammate to stole it, because he flew closer to your target (not even aiming at him or anything) will make me mad,... 

 

your talking of rough Grind: Killsteal is a point coming from this Grind.

 

but having a teammate who did not even fire or consider your target, and recieving the kill would make many people mad.

 

i do see many reactions of players after a real Kill-Steal trying to Team-Kill the ally aircraft who recieved the reward,... what do you think this feature will add? less grind? or more frustration?

people tends to abuse of ways that allow them not to be considered as kill by anybody,... so an abusive players will certainly eject or crash, when another is closer than you.

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3 hours ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

but having a teammate who did not even fire or consider your target, and recieving the kill would make many people mad.

I'm pretty sure that I made it clear that players that do any damage to the target would be prioritized in being rewarded with the kill. If a teammate is closer to an enemy and neither of us did any damage to the target, the closer person was more likely to kill the enemy. It makes sense that the person closest is rewarded. It's not a perfect system, but it's better than nothing. I don't see how deliberately crashing into the ground to deny a kill is any different from J-ing out to deny a kill.

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22 hours ago, Asghaad said:

depends on the tier, there is difference when someone rips or pancakes in a prop and when he does it in a jet, 700m would be far too short of a range when supersonic jet can beat that distance in two seconds ...

 

and shorter the range the more space you are giving to people to intentionally crash...

I know, but in general, regardless if prop or jet, usually within 700m the crash was the result of combat maneuvers... everything past that was usually through dumb/bad luck maneuvers not really caused by another player's threat.

 

Intentional crashes: Well, that's fine because, a) if one got damaged even by a hit, then intentional crashes still award a kill within the hit timer. b) with how stupid the player base has become, resulting in teams sometimes getting wiped out within 1min, I don't blame a remaining skilled player(s) to just crash their plane when swarmed and not playing punching bag, esp. as at lower tier airfield strafing is still a possibility.

 

Best regards,

Phil

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This should have happened months, heck, years ago. Any otherwise uncredited kill should go to the nearest player within 3-5km.

 

It's always better to make sure every deserved kill is credited even if a few "undeserved" kills slip in, than to allow so many deserved kills to go uncredited.

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On 06/07/2021 at 18:36, Cpt_Bel_V said:

problem is, it will not reward the player who caused the ennemy to crash,... or did i missed something?

a kill mean a player doing something to eliminate his opponent.

 

so this simple system you talk about will not fullfill the objective to reward people making maneuver kills.

I mean typically the closest person to the enemy aircraft would be the person to cause it, but if your worried about that then just give it to the closest group of people perhaps even at different levels, so the closest gets the full kill reward, next closest 2 get 75% or half of a RB player kill's reward, next 2-3 closest from there might get 25% or 33% of a normal player kill reward. This is within reason of course though, so like I said before, have a 2.5-5km area of effect. So you don't get someone like 10km away randomly get SL/RP for someone who crashed but it seems they have the J'ing out thing sorted pretty well so I'm sure they'd have options. 

Edited by Southernbear
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If multiple players are in range, nearest gets the kill and others get assists? Or assists all around, even. Lots of ways to do this, and any of them would be an improvement imo.

 

I recently ripped my F8U's wings trying to dodge a missile (shocking, I know) and felt like a monster for depriving the guy who launched it at me of an obviously earned kill. Actually turned me off from flying the plane entirely, though I'm sure I'll come back to it later. In my specific case, I think there was only 1.5km of separation since the guy stayed on my tail all the way, but it's very easy to imagine the same scenario with the attacking player launching then immediately breaking off, leaving tons of separation by the time I rip.

 

You could maybe go with 1km for t1, 1.5km for t2, 2 t3, 2.5 t4 and so on without getting terribly out of hand with it. If that's too much to countenance, at bare minimum if there's a missile within 500m of someone who rips or pancakes, the person who fired the missile should get credit. I've personally had some infuriating moments where I was very clearly the reason someone died, but I didn't "kill" them.

 

The bottom line with this system is that there are going to be misattributions, of course there will be, but IMO it's a clear lesser evil to accept that there'll be a little bit of unearned SL/RP from the rare cases where people happen to kill themselves completely by coincidence. And there should absolutely be an achievement for that glorious moment where two enemies on your tail slam into each other for the double maneuver kill. Maybe even lampshade the fact that it's usually luck, and call it "Calculated."

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On 06/07/2021 at 09:01, Cpt_Bel_V said:

Killsteal

As I'm imagining it, nothing that would be a kill under the current system would be changed by the maneuver kill system. This would only be taking what would formerly be a crash and turning it into a kill if there's an enemy within X meters. Of course there will be cases where your maneuver kill is attributed to someone else, particularly if your victim had some insignificant damage on them, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker. Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good, here.

On 06/07/2021 at 00:03, Cpt_Bel_V said:

lags issues

There's already a system in place to do exactly what we're talking about when people push J (find the nearest player, give credit). The only difference is limiting the range. Nobody's proposing that the poor hamsters power an AI referee to somehow investigate "true" maneuver kills. That'd be cool, of course, but probably not a worthwhile use of resources in either development time or hamster effort. Instead, we just accept as a cost of the system that occasionally someone will get a free kill, the same way that they already do if someone J's near them.

 

In a weird coincidence, I just posted in an AB air thread where someone had complained about kill attribution, and gave the example of running out of fuel five minutes after someone had hit them. To this poster, it was a problem that this kill wasn't "earned" properly. To me, that's ridiculous. If someone crits me, and I can't quite limp back to base, of course they should get credit, even if I'm dying minutes later. Since the hamster-powered-AI is off the table, it's a choice between occasionally giving someone a "free" kill when they scuff someone's paint before they fly into a cliff/tree/teammate for unrelated reasons, or not giving credit in the limp-back-to-base scenario. To me, that's a really easy choice, and the same logic applies to maneuver kills.

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5 hours ago, Southernbear said:

I mean typically the closest person to the enemy aircraft would be the person to cause it, but if your worried about that then just give it to the closest group of people perhaps even at different levels, so the closest gets the full kill reward, next closest 2 get 75% or half of a RB player kill's reward, next 2-3 closest from there might get 25% or 33% of a normal player kill reward. This is within reason of course though, so like I said before, have a 2.5-5km area of effect. So you don't get someone like 10km away randomly get SL/RP for someone who crashed but it seems they have the J'ing out thing sorted pretty well so I'm sure they'd have options. 

2.5km? thats too long for a manuver kill imo maybe a 1km or 700m but 2.5 is just long to even consider a manuver kill

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On 05/07/2021 at 22:36, The_Baron3 said:

Yes, if you cause an enemy to rip their wings in a high-G maneuver or crash (either on accident because they were too focused on you, or intentionally because they crashed on purpose to deny you a kill) you are just as responsible for their death as you would have been had you shot them/launched a missile at them imo

Yeah, if I make a mistake and crash, or rip, then give the closest guy a kill and don’t cause me to have a crew lock.

 

Then again, i think the reason they don’t is to encourage people to know drop bombs and kill them selves .

Edited by CodyBlues
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yes but they won't.

i don't remember if they tried or not...

I thought in the past when somebody was crashing the kill was rewarded to the nearest opponent.

But maybe it got removed or never been in game but just suggested back in the day.

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On 14/07/2021 at 08:18, Thodin said:

I think there should be at least one way left to wreck your plane without crediting a "kill" to the enemy. Everyone knows situation this becomes neccessary.

I personally would rather see them get some credit, I'm just as dead either way and I don't see someone else getting some extra SL/RP as a bad thing, especially if the outcome is the same on my end.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 06/07/2021 at 10:57, Cpt_Bel_V said:

which can't be 100% accurate,...

 

have you experienced an only 1vs1 in WT? 

 

come on,... it's not that hard to understand that this method ain't ok, as it will reward the closest one, instead of the actual player who did forced the ennemy to crash.

 

what if you shot a Sparrow or similar Medium range Missile to an ennemy which pull High G's and rip his wing doing evasive maneuver for your missile: the kill will not be awarded to you because of a "let's say F-5E" which is 2km closer than you.

would you be happy, to waste a sparrow like this? not more than today i guess, but you'll also be disappointed that another player got rewarded doing ABSOLUTELY nothing.

 

So,... please, tell me how do you think it's possible to have a reward system accurate, simple, and not overloading the already overloaded servers?

 

 

Why does it need to be 100% accurate? 

Kill credit isn't 100% accurate, and it's relatively common for someone who crits + sets someone alight to only be granted a kill assist.

Should we disable kills because they're not 100% accurate? One stray 7.7 can hit an enemy aircraft and do the last bit of damage needed.

 

Raw 1v1s regularly occur, at the ends of matches, and during tactical situations where your team is elsewhere. If you don't experience them, you either don't fly enough or don't live long enough.

But I don't see how that's relevant.

 

 

If you dump a sparrow at someone 7km away, and someone rips, you're not getting kill credit either way. If your teammate is at 5km - 2km closer, they don't get the kill because that's well outside the distance.

And why does it matter?

 

I don't care about people getting rewarded by matter of luck, because that's how the world works. It's better than nobody getting any reward. Why does it matter that they didn't "earn" it?

 

It's very much possible for a simple yet effective method (though not super accurate in situations like a biplane mothball), by just programming a check to hand out rewards to whoever has lowest speed inside 700m. All these stats are already in the game.

 

As for teamkilling? Why should we change how we enjoy the game just because some people are toxic? Then bullies would rule the world.

 

 

It's not "whoever's closest gets kill" it's "whoever's closest in a small radius" gets kill. And it's not going to override anything, it's just an added check when counting a death.

 

 

And server load wouldn't be adversely affected by comparing player distances. Not at all. It won't require that much processing power.

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Yes, yes we should have them rewarded. You removed the enemy from combat, thus, you should be rewarded for fulfilling your duties. As it stands you can sort of make this work if you "tag" them with light machine gun fire earlier in the engagement, but having this actually be a part of the system would be nice

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