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Leopard 2A7


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Leopard 2A7  

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  1. 1. Should the Leopard 2A7 be added?

    • Yes
      212
    • No
      39


13 hours ago, Yedidya said:

 

 

Too soon for the Leopard 2A7 to be added? Would you be fine with the Leclerc SXXI, T-90M or M1A2 SEP v2 to be added this year or even next patch?

 

I always find it amusing when people do the following

 

a) use the word "need" ... super cringe... no nation needs anything new in this game; people want something new, but the need isn't there

b) when people talk about vehicles they have not played a single match in... in your case your highest German vehicle is a Leopard A1A1 ... far away from Leopard 2A5 and 2A6 ... let me enlighten you a bit with some stats

 

obviously those are from the only source available to us, and yes, they are to be taken with a grain of salt, but they are in my humble opinion a good indicator of the current trend in this game

 

following Google spreadsheet is updated almost daily since the 24th of June and tracks the average statistics of all nations MBTs from 10.0 and upwards; the statistics tracked are always the average of the past 30 days on that day/moment they are tracked

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zG-4XdPHZkY3vKPMAGA3FvIKtBOQR-HWzwdW1DkMfps/edit?usp=sharing

 

- the Leopard 2A5 has out of all BR 11.0 vehicles the lowest win rate with 40.75%

- the T-80BVM has 75.63%

- the Leclerc S1 has 51.63% (btw also much higher ground frags per battle and ground frags per death)

- the Leclerc S2 has 52.55% (same here with ground frags per battle and ground frags per death)

- the M1A2 has 43.57%

 

- heck even the Ariete PSO sits much higher and the Challenger 2 (2F)

- interesting fact is also, the Leopard 2A6 with its 46.38% isn't much better either and the 4th lowest BR 11.0 MBT

 

One-shot-killing a Leopard 2A5 or Leopard 2A6 in the hull is much more reliable and easier than one-shot-killing e.g. a T-80BVM, T-80U or T-72B3

 

So your claim that Leopard 2A5 and 2A6 are already superior to most other MBT in the game at their respective tier is simply incorrect. There is a reason why Gaijin thinks it is suitable to give the Leopard 2A5 the DM43, which should show you, those Thunderskill stats are somewhat trustworthy.

Leclerc SXXI is to Leclerc S1 and S2 what the Leopard 2A5 is to the Leopard 2A4 : better turret armor, addition of CITV, even if you add OFL 120 F2 you do not suddenly get an ammo that is capable of lol penning almost any tanks anywhere like the Leopard 2A6 can bar the infamous T80UB3 and T80BVM. Abrams SEP V2 would be just another M1A2 probably with better ammunition M829A2 comparable to the DM53. T90M would be a better T80BVM similar case to the Leopard 2A7.

 

You can show me google spreadsheets all day, these statistics hold no value at all because they simply have no common denominator and only come from the game being played randomly by the community instead of a proper statistical experiment in order to draw proper winrates and efficiency of each vehicles. Poor statistics of the big nations bar Russia, which is also greatly helped by it's insane CAS capability thanks to KA 50, MI 28, KA 52 can be explained with several factors.

 

1st : They are the most attractive nations so you get the most number of matches played with these vehicles, WR and ground kills stats for these vehicles are divided by a the greatest numbers of matches played which is therefore a good indicator of the performance of a sizeable portion of the community at top tier.

 

2nd : All these nations have an almost readily accessible vehicle to buy on the store or on the market to make you way in top tier in few days : XM1, Leopard 2PL, Merkavas etc.. Meaning that you have new players jumping straight into what is probably the most unforgiving META of the game. As i said above, these nations being played by the greatest number, the proportion of new players in top tier playing those nations is bigger than for other nations, it lowers the overall skill ceiling, increase the number of players ging into top tier matches with very few or even just one vehicle. This will naturally lower the statistics idependantly of how good the vehicles are individually.

 

3rd : These nations have the biggest line-ups in the game. You have a lot of vehicle with a very forgiving spawn points system, you can afford to play more casually because even if you die, you can still respawn in a relevant vehicle.

 

So there is that the "statistics" being bad for the big nations is explained by these nations popularity, having the biggest denominator of players that can buy their way into top tier will automatically lead these nations looking as poorly performing. But that has nothing to do with the efficiency of their machines when taken individually. Gaijin statistics are flawed and cannot be used as a balancing tool at all, yet they are because it's a simple and good looking way at first sight to balance things out but if you have a few knowledge of how proper statistics should be made, then this system is terrible.

 

I'll now explain to you, if we were to play a game developpers really wanted to balance, how it'd look like.

 

Take a number of players representing a sizeable portion of the community.

Divide them in groups, one group for each nation

Make sure each nation is represented equally in the battle (same number of vehicles if possible per nations and per team)

Make these groups play 10 matches on each map with the best availaible line up availaible for each nation at this BR. and make sure each group plays 10 matches with all nations, so 80 matches per map and BR bracket : That's 800 matches per group per BR, for the whole game that would represent close to 10000 matches per group and per nations so close to 100k matches.

 

There you'd have a proper  statistics using the same exact common denominator, everybody would get to play every nations in the same exact conditions and you'd get a proper insight of really vehicle efficiency at their BR. If a vehicle shows a constant great performance at it's BR, higher than other vehicles, then it's too powerful, if it shows a constant bd performance then it's not powerful enough, if the performance is average, then it's balanced.

 

DOes doing this sound irrealistic ? Surely but that's what you should do if you want to balance the game by statistics and not let the game being played and draw conclusions on flawed basis. Honnestly what i described above coul be done in half a year if Gaijin really wanted to balanced it's game. But as I understand doing this for the whole game would be very heavy, they could at least do it when introducing new vehicles, maybe they could lower the number of matches played and the size of the groups.

 

And why did i write everything above when if these statistics were to be accurate, it'd mean that the Arietes are factually better vehicle than the Leopard 2A6. Everybody knows this is a joke, probably you aswell, but since it fits your narratives of "Germany needs a better vehicle cause look statistics".

 

Germany does not need a better vehicle NOW, sorry, they would need most WTplayers to be better and Gaijin to stop making top tier an experience for players who just started the game and have a lot of money. As i said, I am not against it but youre delusional if you think Germany has bad winrates because their vehicles are factually worse than what is available in other nations. The problem lies elsewhere such as the F2P nature of the game attracting a lot of players into most popular nations as well as the nature of players themselves bieng mostly casuals and this phonomenon is further amplified by the Gaijin's buiseness model which allows top tier experience as soon as you installed the game granted you have quite a bit of money to spend.

 

 

 

Edited by Tantor57
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I voted no because there are no design that can ever be added that would ever be equivalent to this.

 

Remember the weak spots have to be artificial already for these series of tank to be balanced in game

 

IRL i dont know and it doesnt matter. its strictly from the game perspective.

 

Until I have seen the Type 10 armor profile and values, I do not believe any Leclerc, Abrams, Challenger, and Russian design can ever wistand a chance of fighting it. 

 

So i voted No, if there is an Armata suggestion i would vote no as well. I do not want be all end all tanks for only 2 nations in the game. 

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2 hours ago, Tantor57 said:

Leclerc SXXI is to Leclerc S1 and S2 what the Leopard 2A5 is to the Leopard 2A4 : better turret armor, addition of CITV, even if you add OFL 120 F2 you do not suddenly get an ammo that is capable of lol penning almost any tanks anywhere like the Leopard 2A6 can bar the infamous T80UB3 and T80BVM. Abrams SEP V2 would be just another M1A2 probably with better ammunition M829A2 comparable to the DM53. T90M would be a better T80BVM similar case to the Leopard 2A7.

 

You can show me google spreadsheets all day, these statistics hold no value at all because they simply have no common denominator and only come from the game being played randomly by the community instead of a proper statistical experiment in order to draw proper winrates and efficiency of each vehicles. Poor statistics of the big nations bar Russia, which is also greatly helped by it's insane CAS capability thanks to KA 50, MI 28, KA 52 can be explained with several factors.

 

1st : They are the most attractive nations so you get the most number of matches played with these vehicles, WR and ground kills stats for these vehicles are divided by a the greatest numbers of matches played which is therefore a good indicator of the performance of a sizeable portion of the community at top tier.

 

2nd : All these nations have an almost readily accessible vehicle to buy on the store or on the market to make you way in top tier in few days : XM1, Leopard 2PL, Merkavas etc.. Meaning that you have new players jumping straight into what is probably the most unforgiving META of the game. As i said above, these nations being played by the greatest number, the proportion of new players in top tier playing those nations is bigger than for other nations, it lowers the overall skill ceiling, increase the number of players ging into top tier matches with very few or even just one vehicle. This will naturally lower the statistics idependantly of how good the vehicles are individually.

 

3rd : These nations have the biggest line-ups in the game. You have a lot of vehicle with a very forgiving spawn points system, you can afford to play more casually because even if you die, you can still respawn in a relevant vehicle.

 

So there is that the "statistics" being bad for the big nations is explained by these nations popularity, having the biggest denominator of players that can buy their way into top tier will automatically lead these nations looking as poorly performing. But that has nothing to do with the efficiency of their machines when taken individually. Gaijin statistics are flawed and cannot be used as a balancing tool at all, yet they are because it's a simple and good looking way at first sight to balance things out but if you have a few knowledge of how proper statistics should be made, then this system is terrible.

 

I'll now explain to you, if we were to play a game developpers really wanted to balance, how it'd look like.

 

Take a number of players representing a sizeable portion of the community.

Divide them in groups, one group for each nation

Make sure each nation is represented equally in the battle (same number of vehicles if possible per nations and per team)

Make these groups play 10 matches on each map with the best availaible line up availaible for each nation at this BR. and make sure each group plays 10 matches with all nations, so 80 matches per map and BR bracket : That's 800 matches per group per BR, for the whole game that would represent close to 10000 matches per group and per nations so close to 100k matches.

 

There you'd have a proper  statistics using the same exact common denominator, everybody would get to play every nations in the same exact conditions and you'd get a proper insight of really vehicle efficiency at their BR. If a vehicle shows a constant great performance at it's BR, higher than other vehicles, then it's too powerful, if it shows a constant bd performance then it's not powerful enough, if the performance is average, then it's balanced.

 

DOes doing this sound irrealistic ? Surely but that's what you should do if you want to balance the game by statistics and not let the game being played and draw conclusions on flawed basis. Honnestly what i described above coul be done in half a year if Gaijin really wanted to balanced it's game. But as I understand doing this for the whole game would be very heavy, they could at least do it when introducing new vehicles, maybe they could lower the number of matches played and the size of the groups.

 

And why did i write everything above when if these statistics were to be accurate, it'd mean that the Arietes are factually better vehicle than the Leopard 2A6. Everybody knows this is a joke, probably you aswell, but since it fits your narratives of "Germany needs a better vehicle cause look statistics".

 

Germany does not need a better vehicle NOW, sorry, they would need most WTplayers to be better and Gaijin to stop making top tier an experience for players who just started the game and have a lot of money. As i said, I am not against it but youre delusional if you think Germany has bad winrates because their vehicles are factually worse than what is available in other nations. The problem lies elsewhere such as the F2P nature of the game attracting a lot of players into most popular nations as well as the nature of players themselves bieng mostly casuals and this phonomenon is further amplified by the Gaijin's buiseness model which allows top tier experience as soon as you installed the game granted you have quite a bit of money to spend.

 

 

 

 

Well, you get an A for effort on your long text, but that is about it. There is so much wrong in your statement. I am not going to deep into detail about all of your rambling, because your wall of text partially shows your lack of knowledge and also the lack of any experience with the mentioned vehicles

 

You have over 30k battles, yet you don't have a single top tier vehicle for USA nor for Germany but you speak out on them.

 

Quote

Leclerc SXXI is to Leclerc S1 and S2 what the Leopard 2A5 is to the Leopard 2A4 : better turret armor, addition of CITV, even if you add OFL 120 F2 you do not suddenly get an ammo that is capable of lol penning almost any tanks anywhere like the Leopard 2A6 can bar the infamous T80UB3 and T80BVM. Abrams SEP V2 would be just another M1A2 probably with better ammunition M829A2 comparable to the DM53. T90M would be a better T80BVM similar case to the Leopard 2A7.

 

Only that Leclerc S1 and Leclerc S2 already are very formidable vehicles at their respective tiers with solid armor, solid optics and a solid round.

The Leopard 2A6 cannot lolpen - this myth is just mindblowing because some people just check protection analysis that is known to be incorrect.

lolpen simply means that a round can penetrate you everywhere at any distance and any angle. DM53 cannot and will not do that to any top tier tank. You would know that if you were to play or even had the Leopard 2A6 yourself. Heck in this game even Kontakt-1 on a T-72AV and its UFP defeat DM53 from less than 500m away. So much regarding "lolpen"

 

Abrams SEP v2 would add way more than "just better ammunition". SEP v2 actually adds additional armor, better electronics, round and incorporates the better optics from the SEP v1.

 

T-90M a better T-80BVM? Both tanks are fundamentally different whereas the T-90 is based on the T-72, the T-80BVM is based on the T-80 ... completely different designs and also engine designs.

 

Quote

2nd : All these nations have an almost readily accessible vehicle to buy on the store or on the market to make you way in top tier in few days : XM1, Leopard 2PL, Merkavas etc.. Meaning that you have new players jumping straight into what is probably the most unforgiving META of the game. As i said above, these nations being played by the greatest number, the proportion of new players in top tier playing those nations is bigger than for other nations, it lowers the overall skill ceiling, increase the number of players ging into top tier matches with very few or even just one vehicle. This will naturally lower the statistics idependantly of how good the vehicles are individually.

 

Merkavas are hundreds of Dollars and hence for most people not obtainable. By your logic you applied in your rambling above, Russia would have to have **** poor win rates as well, even on Thunderskill because of the massive influx of T-72AV TURMS-T premium tanks sitting at 9.7 ... yet they don't.

 

Quote

3rd : These nations have the biggest line-ups in the game. You have a lot of vehicle with a very forgiving spawn points system, you can afford to play more casually because even if you die, you can still respawn in a relevant vehicle.

 

The only nation that has a ton of MBTs to spawn as viable backups at top tier is Russia (T-80BVM --> T-72B3 UBH --> T-80U --> T-90A and so on)

USA has pretty much no proper backup for the M1A2; Germany has the Leopard 2A5 to the 2A6 that, at the current state, is laughable BR 11.0 backup with DM33; 

 

If you want so, France has better backup option for the Leclerc S2 with its Leclerc S1 ... better mobility, better round, better gunner optics

 

BTW CITV is not such a huge bonus anymore since the introduction of the CITV mechanic, since often a crew member gets killed and the commander replaces that crew member which renders CITV useless.

 

Quote

Take a number of players representing a sizeable portion of the community.

Divide them in groups, one group for each nation

 

And how you choose that player base? You have to use statistics because also skill matters. There are players out there that can and will make every tank work, regardless of how xxxx it is in the hands of the average player.

 

Quote

And why did i write everything above when if these statistics were to be accurate, it'd mean that the Arietes are factually better vehicle than the Leopard 2A6. Everybody knows this is a joke, probably you aswell, but since it fits your narratives of "Germany needs a better vehicle cause look statistics".

 

Germany does not need a better vehicle NOW, sorry, they would need most WTplayers to be better and Gaijin to stop making top tier an experience for players who just started the game and have a lot of money. As i said, I am not against it but youre delusional if you think Germany has bad winrates because their vehicles are factually worse than what is available in other nations. The problem lies elsewhere such as the F2P nature of the game attracting a lot of players into most popular nations as well as the nature of players themselves bieng mostly casuals and this phonomenon is further amplified by the Gaijin's buiseness model which allows top tier experience as soon as you installed the game granted you have quite a bit of money to spend.

 

I never said Germany "needs" a better vehicle. I even stated I  HATE  the word "need" in regards of WT. Germany doesn't need a better vehicle. NATO should have their armor fixed and their unhistorical nerfes removed and their historical rounds added.

 

No one ever said that any nation should get something "now" or "immediately". 

 

And it is correct to say that top tier vehicles of Germany have partially went through a lot of unhistorical nerfs, like many other vehicles of western nations. 

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2 hours ago, Yedidya said:

 

Well, you get an A for effort on your long text, but that is about it. There is so much wrong in your statement. I am not going to deep into detail about all of your rambling, because your wall of text partially shows your lack of knowledge and also the lack of any experience with the mentioned vehicles

 

You have over 30k battles, yet you don't have a single top tier vehicle for USA nor for Germany but you speak out on them.

 

 

Only that Leclerc S1 and Leclerc S2 already are very formidable vehicles at their respective tiers with solid armor, solid optics and a solid round.

The Leopard 2A6 cannot lolpen - this myth is just mindblowing because some people just check protection analysis that is known to be incorrect.

lolpen simply means that a round can penetrate you everywhere at any distance and any angle. DM53 cannot and will not do that to any top tier tank. You would know that if you were to play or even had the Leopard 2A6 yourself. Heck in this game even Kontakt-1 on a T-72AV and its UFP defeat DM53 from less than 500m away. So much regarding "lolpen"

 

Abrams SEP v2 would add way more than "just better ammunition". SEP v2 actually adds additional armor, better electronics, round and incorporates the better optics from the SEP v1.

 

T-90M a better T-80BVM? Both tanks are fundamentally different whereas the T-90 is based on the T-72, the T-80BVM is based on the T-80 ... completely different designs and also engine designs.

 

 

Merkavas are hundreds of Dollars and hence for most people not obtainable. By your logic you applied in your rambling above, Russia would have to have **** poor win rates as well, even on Thunderskill because of the massive influx of T-72AV TURMS-T premium tanks sitting at 9.7 ... yet they don't.

 

 

The only nation that has a ton of MBTs to spawn as viable backups at top tier is Russia (T-80BVM --> T-72B3 UBH --> T-80U --> T-90A and so on)

USA has pretty much no proper backup for the M1A2; Germany has the Leopard 2A5 to the 2A6 that, at the current state, is laughable BR 11.0 backup with DM33; 

 

If you want so, France has better backup option for the Leclerc S2 with its Leclerc S1 ... better mobility, better round, better gunner optics

 

BTW CITV is not such a huge bonus anymore since the introduction of the CITV mechanic, since often a crew member gets killed and the commander replaces that crew member which renders CITV useless.

 

 

And how you choose that player base? You have to use statistics because also skill matters. There are players out there that can and will make every tank work, regardless of how xxxx it is in the hands of the average player.

 

 

I never said Germany "needs" a better vehicle. I even stated I  HATE  the word "need" in regards of WT. Germany doesn't need a better vehicle. NATO should have their armor fixed and their unhistorical nerfes removed and their historical rounds added.

 

No one ever said that any nation should get something "now" or "immediately". 

 

And it is correct to say that top tier vehicles of Germany have partially went through a lot of unhistorical nerfs, like many other vehicles of western nations. 

Okay thats nice and all but where are your arguments but "No mate sry you re wrong and inexperimented" 

 

I want you to show me a proper reasonning. As of why would the Leopard 2a7 for Germany. If  you cant show me anything else bu fundamentally flawed stats from a googlesheet then thats sad.

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On 10/07/2021 at 17:42, Zeluar said:

The most common names that are usually thrown around when the 2A7 is mentioned, are the M1A2 SEPv2 and T-90M

Sorry if this the wrong place to ask, but what would be the dynamic between these 3 tanks? What would each be better at than the other and what would each be worse at than the others? 

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6 minutes ago, __Renzo__ said:

Sorry if this the wrong place to ask, but what would be the dynamic between these 3 tanks? What would each be better at than the other and what would each be worse at than the others? 

So;

- Leopard 2A7 would have the best round (unless Gaijin were to add M829A3)

- M1A2 SEPv2 would be the most mobile with the best survivability

- T-90M would have the best gun-handling (as of now at least because NATO's are nerfed)

- 2A7 would have the best overall frontal armour due to its improvements but T-90M would have better coverage due to ERA (and also better side armour against KEP)

- M1A2 SEPv2 would have the best thermals of all, 2A7 only has 3rd gen CITV and T-90M only has 2nd generation thermals

- T-90M would also be more mobile due to a new automatic transmission

 

There's more stuff to add but i honestly don't remember all of it but generally, it would be a fairly balanced match-up with M1 having survivability and awareness and best overall mobility, 2A7 having armour and firepower and some survivability due to DM63's ability to not explode and 90M having armour and awareness as well as gun-handling + improved mobility.

 

Keep in mind that SEPv2 also has improved armour that brings the LPF to at least 550mm KE which would make it immune to lower end projectile.

Edited by Zeluar
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+1, This would attract a lot of players! This would be nice if this tank was added along with the Type 99A, M1A2 SEP V2 Abrams, T72B3M, T90M, T14 Armata, Type 10, etc! But if the South Korean Subtree gets added either into the U.S or in the Japanese Techtree, the K2 would probably be equivalent as the Leopard 2a7 too! This vehicle would be the best top tier vehicle for the German Techtree, I could be wrong but I think that this vehicle would be the best MBT too in the game! Also good job on the writing too, it was really good! 

Edited by CakeJuniorMan
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1 hour ago, LoliDefenseForce said:

Can we balance the game before adding more unnecessary vehicles? 2A6 is already the best MBT in the game. The 2A7 won’t be needed for a long time.

My man, this is just a suggestion. Gaijin won't just go off and add the 2A7 because a suggestion had been made, this more or less just to gather info and present how such vehicles could fit into the game with their peers/counterparts a year or even two years from now on.

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35 minutes ago, Zeluar said:

My man, this is just a suggestion. Gaijin won't just go off and add the 2A7 because a suggestion had been made, this more or less just to gather info and present how such vehicles could fit into the game with their peers/counterparts a year or even two years from now on.

Ok, I would have to agree that Gaijin would not add the Leopard 2a7 any time soon because the Leopard 2a6 is already good. So they might add it in the next 2-3 years. This is just my prediction. 

Edited by CakeJuniorMan
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Didn't it get a new thermals for the gunner, or did it arrive only with the 2A7V version?

 

Regardless, +1. Would like to see it in a game in the future if I'm still playing it then.

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1 minute ago, Taeblamees said:

Didn't it get a new thermals for the gunner, or did it arrive only with the 2A7V version?

 Not clear. Some sources state 2A7 had received 3rd gen gunner and some don't, all of them are secondary sources so I decided not to include them till some official info gets leaked.

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9 minutes ago, Zeluar said:

 Not clear. Some sources state 2A7 had received 3rd gen gunner and some don't, all of them are secondary sources so I decided not to include them till some official info gets leaked.

 

Does that not depend rather or not it's a 2A7, 2A7+ or 2A7V etc.

 

Because from what i know. The regular 2A7 is the most barebones of all the 2A7's. But don't quote me on that.

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6 hours ago, eleks12 said:

 

Does that not depend rather or not it's a 2A7, 2A7+ or 2A7V etc.

 

Because from what i know. The regular 2A7 is the most barebones of all the 2A7's. But don't quote me on that.

The issue is that there are no sources as to what the leopard 2a7 base protection levels are. If we went by the Swedish trial data, then the 2a5 600mm composite block plus the turret wedge should be the strongest part of the tank, but it isn't in game. You guys expect too much, I would rather focus more on composite inconsistancies.

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It amuses me how even up to this day people still think "Leopard 2A5 and Leopard 2A6 are the best tanks in gaem!!1!1!" when they have NOTHING special over most of their counterparts.

 

"It has well protected turret cheeks!"

Well, congratulations, just like EVERY single tank at Top Tier except for the Arietes and Type 90s.

 

"It can penetrate everybody with OP DM53!"

Because noone can pen Leopard 2A6's OP 230-440mm KE hull with their underpowered 564, 575, 580, 598 and 625mm pen shells, am I right?

 

"Muh gun handling!"

T-80BVM and T-72B3(UBH) have EVEN BETTER "gun handling", while most tanks have just the same as it.

 

I just want armor to be relevant to EVERYONE, that's why I want stuff like 2A7 and 2A7V in the future, M1A2 Sep V.2 and M1A2C in the future, Leclerc XXI and XLR in the future, etc.

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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  • 3 weeks later...

All i want is a leo 2 in the German tech tree with addition front hull protection. To actually add a feature and jus cuz im tired of looking at the same boring hull. The swedes have their strv jus without a good shell, which doesnt make sense. Other Examples im familiar with is the Leo 2a4m, or the leo 2a7+. 

Edited by Wholesome_Actual
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3 hours ago, Wholesome_Actual said:

All i want is a leo 2 in the German tech tree with addition front hull protection. To actually add a feature and jus cuz im tired of looking at the same boring hull. The swedes have their strv jus without a good shell, which doesnt make sense. Other Examples im familiar with is the Leo 2a4m, or the leo 2a7+. 

They should honestly just make the leopard 2a7 addition and then add the kits, like PSO and 2a7+ armor packages, in modifications. These modifications would also change the BR when disabled or enabled. It would be the simplest solutuion. Then for the 2a6, they could do the 2a6M modification. The 2a4M is a completely separate vehicle though.

Edited by WolfFang2003

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