Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

Stona_WT · July 15, 2021

Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

The reward system for useful actions in battle operates as follows: every 15 minutes, scoring occurs for useful action for the specific aircraft, as well as after aircraft loss, or by the mission end. These are the same points that are displayed in the combat statistics window and in which players are sorted. The amount of points scored are reduced to the period of time they were scored, and the player’s activity in battle is calculated for a given period of time with the new activity formula. Resulting activity is multiplied by the maximum reward for useful actions (see the vehicle card) for a given period of time.

For example, in the La-9 fighter with a maximum reward for useful actions equal to 816 SL per minute, the total reward for a 15 minute period with an activity of 90% will be 816 * 15 * 0.9 = 11.016 SL. If you didn’t play for the 15 minutes and were shot down after 10 minutes with the same activity level, the formula will be 816 * 10 * 0.9 = 7.344 SL. The Silver Lion multiplier doesn't affect the resulting reward for useful actions.

Thus, to get the maximum reward, you have to play as long as you can, keeping the maximum income level. The scoring of points for simply staying near enemies for this reward system will be disabled.

Changes will also slightly affect the mechanics of the deferred reward when landing at an airfield - now the deferred part of the reward that is issued after a successful return to the airfield will be 20% instead of 50%.

Repair costs for aviation in the upcoming economy update will be preliminary recalculated taking into account this reward system. At the same time, the 50% discount on revival from the repair price in this mode will be removed and the final reward in Silver Lions will be increased by 30%.

To familiarize yourself with the new reward system, you can take part in special events (check the “Events and tournaments” tab in the hangar), which will be available from July 15th (15:00 GMT) until July 19th (12:00 GMT), where if you find any issues, please let us know about them in this thread.

Testing might be stopped ahead of schedule for technical reasons.

NebeI · July 15, 2021

46 minutes ago, Stona_WT said:

At the same time, the 50% discount on revival from the repair price in this mode will be removed

RIP EC7

Edited July 15, 2021 by NebeI

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

based on given example La-9 can get up to 49k SL per hour - let's round it up to 50k
This means that to buy Su-9 (next plane in tech tree, cost 350k SL) I need 7 (seven!) hours of EC at constant 100% activity and another 7 to get expert crew (which in jets is kind of mandatory).
Now, EC usually end after 1.5hrs so we are talking about 5 EC sessions.
Given no 50% spawn reduction, each session will cost me to fly 27k and will produce (at best, with all planets aligned perfectly, me not dying, etc) 74k with net gain of 46k SL.
This means that I need in fact 7 sessions of EC, 1.5hrs each (10.5hrs total) to pay for Su-9 or 14 sessions (21hrs in total) to pay for plane and expert crew.

This is assuming I never die and always get 100% activity.

@Stona_WT - am I missing anything?
Maybe the description is missing some details? maybe we can earn SL outside the usual "activity" part (like SL for kills, etc) but to say the least, this sounds awful
And even if LA-9 cost 1SL to spawn it does not look much better

Yvarov · July 15, 2021

So i could kill AI plane near field 1-2 times per 15 min and i will be 'uesefull'? Or circle at stratosphere droping periodicaly 50 kg bomb on same field just to maintain my usefullness? Wich actions are usefull and wich don't? Or they are equal?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Yvarov

HOPPING_PONY · July 15, 2021

@Stona_WT

1. Why should we keep paying this "revival price", which all other gamemodes doesn't have (they pay repair cost in case of vehicle loss, which is logical and fair). Big game-breaker. I'd prefer paying for repair, as all other gamemodes, or at least getting my "revival" SL back after successful RTB.

2. If this system was intended as a fix for farming exploits, which custom lobbies full of - I don't see how it will affect exploiters. Sure they'll now get this "standartised" income instead of rewards for actions, but that's it.

3. Those income calculations for La9 look very-very sad, as przybysz86 just stated. In my opinion the minimal acceptable income level for SB should be similar to RB in SL/playhour.

Edited July 15, 2021 by HOPPING_PONY

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

5 minutes ago, HOPPING_PONY said:

1. Why should we keep paying this "revival price", which all other gamemodes doesn't have (they pay repair cost in case of vehicle loss, which is logical and fair). Big game-breaker. I'd prefer paying for repair, as all other gamemodes, or at least getting my "revival" SL back after successful RTB.

this!

there is nothing more infuriating than having enough SP for next plane but having one one working still. You know that if you switch to new one you lose money.

6 minutes ago, HOPPING_PONY said:

3. Those income calculations for La9 look very-very sad, as przybysz86 just stated. In my opinion the minimal acceptable income level for SB should be similar to RB in SL/playhour.

I just hope it's only bad dev-blog writing and that activity reward is not the only reward we get but just replacement for current activity and all things like kills, etc will retain their current rewards independent of it.

@Stona_WT - would be nice if you can re-confirm this "upstairs"

Stona_WT · July 15, 2021

26 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

based on given example La-9 can get up to 49k SL per hour - let's round it up to 50k
This means that to buy Su-9 (next plane in tech tree, cost 350k SL) I need 7 (seven!) hours of EC at constant 100% activity and another 7 to get expert crew (which in jets is kind of mandatory).
Now, EC usually end after 1.5hrs so we are talking about 5 EC sessions.
Given no 50% spawn reduction, each session will cost me to fly 27k and will produce (at best, with all planets aligned perfectly, me not dying, etc) 74k with net gain of 46k SL.
This means that I need in fact 7 sessions of EC, 1.5hrs each (10.5hrs total) to pay for Su-9 or 14 sessions (21hrs in total) to pay for plane and expert crew.

This is assuming I never die and always get 100% activity.

@Stona_WT - am I missing anything?
Maybe the description is missing some details? maybe we can earn SL outside the usual "activity" part (like SL for kills, etc) but to say the least, this sounds awful
And even if LA-9 cost 1SL to spawn it does not look much better

Info I got:

It does not take into account reward for the battle time and for winning.

Reward for the battle time is, as a rule, +30% of the reward for useful actions.

Reward for winning is also +67% to the final reward (at 50% winrate can be considered + 33.5%).

Then the reward per hour will be 50K * 1.3 * 1.335 = 87K
And 87K SL per hour is the correct reward for the La-9

At the moment, the average reward for all players for it is:

in AB 94500 SL/h
in RB 81648 SL/h
in SB 85284 SL/h

In AB reward is higher because the unit is more efficient in this mode. At the same time, it spends on repairs per hour significantly higher than in RB and SB.

ItalianHitman · July 15, 2021

1 hour ago, Stona_WT said:

Changes will also slightly affect the mechanics of the deferred reward when landing at an airfield - now the deferred part of the reward that is issued after a successful return to the airfield will be 20% instead of 50%.

I'm afraid this will cause another 1-way suicide bomber epidemic.
People will simply take a bomber, fly to bombing target, drop their bombs, and J-out or crash into the ground, "because it's not worth their time to return back and land".

23 minutes ago, HOPPING_PONY said:

1. Why should we keep paying this "revival price", which all other gamemodes doesn't have (they pay repair cost in case of vehicle loss, which is logical and fair). Big game-breaker. I'd prefer paying for repair, as all other gamemodes, or at least getting my "revival" SL back after successful RTB.

Also this 1+
Paying in advance and not getting refunded after exiting the plane on the runway, doesn't make any sense.
Often, near the end of the battle, people refrain from respawning in after dying, because they can't make back the SL they will have to pay for a plane, in the amount of time the battle is gonna last ...
@Stona_WT

Edited July 15, 2021 by sudo__su

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

20 minutes ago, Stona_WT said:

Info I got:

It does not take into account reward for the battle time and for winning.

Reward for the battle time is, as a rule, +30% of the reward for useful actions.

Reward for winning is also +67% to the final reward (at 50% winrate can be considered + 33.5%).

Then the reward per hour will be 50K * 1.3 * 1.335 = 87K
And 87K SL per hour is the correct reward for the La-9

At the moment, the average reward for all players for it is:

in AB 94500 SL/h

in RB 81648 SL/h

in SB 85284 SL/h

In AB reward is higher because the unit is more efficient in this mode. At the same time, it spends on repairs per hour significantly higher than in RB and SB.

question is - how easy it would be to achieve 100% activity. your calculation assume that everyone will get 100% which I am not so sure about.

what activity can we expect average player to have?
For average player to match current rewards he would have to do 98% activity on average
Is this realistic at all?
People reported that since 2.7 went live it's much harder to get activity all the way to 100% and most sat well below 90%

Edited July 15, 2021 by przybysz86

RBadek · July 15, 2021

1 minute ago, przybysz86 said:

question is - how easy it would be to achieve 100% activity. your calculation assume that everyone will get 100% which I am not so sure about.

what activity can we expect average player to have?
For average player to match current rewards he would have to do 98% activity on average
It this realistic at all?
People reported that since 2.7 went live it's much harder to get activity all the way to 100% and most sat well below 90%

Exactly, and considering how more difficult it is to simply fly a plane in SIM, and how smaller is the number of players of EC compared to RB and AB, shouldnt the average reward of sim be HIGHER than AB and RB? Doesnt make sense creating a whole new reward system that will increase the constantly complained sim rewards by 5k. I can't even spawn a entry EC7 9.7 jet with 5K SL.

Siggesvag · July 15, 2021

in SB 85284 SL/h

Is that after or before respawn cost? Yes you earn more in sim in the battle results page but then when you look at the real result with spawn cost it is often very much lower total SL or even negative..

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

1 minute ago, Siggesvag said:

in SB 85284 SL/h

Is that after or before respawn cost? Yes you earn more in sim in the battle results page but then when you look at the real result with spawn cost it is often very much lower total SL or even negative..

very good point: since it's high BR plane (for it's BR) you rarely play more than 1hr per spawn. I'd say 30mins is good guess.

this means that you get 47-48k per spawn that cost you now 11k so you get maybe 65k per hour if you are lucky.

Yvarov · July 15, 2021

Wait for a2d spam again. Low cost due to high death statistics (we know how gailin works with that), high bomb load - can get a lot of points per run and be active, now more money per run but half for return as it was,

Make A2D sells great again (c) Gaijinz

onebullet95 · July 15, 2021

54 minutes ago, Stona said:

Info I got:

It does not take into account reward for the battle time and for winning.

Reward for the battle time is, as a rule, +30% of the reward for useful actions.

Reward for winning is also +67% to the final reward (at 50% winrate can be considered + 33.5%).

Then the reward per hour will be 50K * 1.3 * 1.335 = 87K
And 87K SL per hour is the correct reward for the La-9

At the moment, the average reward for all players for it is:

in AB 94500 SL/h

in RB 81648 SL/h

in SB 85284 SL/h

In AB reward is higher because the unit is more efficient in this mode. At the same time, it spends on repairs per hour significantly higher than in RB and SB.

So now rewards are a bit better but also are almost similar to RB. SB was more rewarding than RB because of common sense: SB is more difficult. In Sim you dont get 3rd person view or instructor mode like in RB, no markers and everything is more difficult (Not bombing, thats 80% similar to RB), how can it be same rewards than RB? i hope im understanding it wrong but a few SL more in SB is just nonsense.

Edited July 15, 2021 by onebullet95SPAIN

MH4UAstragon · July 15, 2021

This sounds like the same "controversial" idea posted about previously several months ago. From what others are saying it sounds like yet another reward nerf to try and reign in "zomber" spam. We'll have to wait & see how this changes things.

ItalianHitman · July 15, 2021

5 minutes ago, onebullet95SPAIN said:

So now rewards are a bit better but also are almost similar to RB. SB was more rewarding than RB because of common sense: SB is more difficult. In Sim you dont get 3rd person view or instructor mode like in RB, no markers and everything is more difficult (Not bombing, thats 80% similar to RB), how can it be same rewards than RB? i hope im understanding it wrong but a few SL more in SB is just nonsense.

Bombing is actually easier in SB, because fighters don't get mouse aim, markers or 3rd person view.

Stona_WT · July 15, 2021

41 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

question is - how easy it would be to achieve 100% activity. your calculation assume that everyone will get 100% which I am not so sure about.

what activity can we expect average player to have?
For average player to match current rewards he would have to do 98% activity on average
Is this realistic at all?
People reported that since 2.7 went live it's much harder to get activity all the way to 100% and most sat well below 90%

Answer from Dev:

That's a good point.

Median activity is adjusted for the entire game mode to the 80%, while it's obvious for each individual unit it can be lower or higher than this value. In economic updates, the reward for useful actions for each individual unit will be adjusted based on its average activity in order to achieve a specified level of rewards. We'd like to look at the disparity of activity by units and players based on the statistics of test missions and decide on the initial increase in the base reward for useful actions by 25% (up to the level of 80% of the median activity), but we'd not like to do this in advance if it leads to a decrease in the reward for useful actions on all popular units in the next econ update (if the activity on it is above 80%).

onebullet95 · July 15, 2021

7 minutes ago, sudo__su said:

Bombing is actually easier in SB, because fighters don't get mouse aim, markers or 3rd person view.

Yes, thats why i said not bombers, they are super easy mode but it differs from RB that they have to fly in cockpit mode in Sim.... still, really easy planes to fly with mouse aim, autolevel mode, autoaim and 3rd person camera.

WurstSalat · July 15, 2021

Am i correct in the assumption that the "Rewards for usefull actions" will be ontop of all other rewards (aside those mentioned above) ? if so it sounds like a good idea to make EC playable again SL wise.

ItalianHitman · July 15, 2021

4 minutes ago, WurstSalat said:

Am i correct in the assumption that the "Rewards for usefull actions" will be ontop of all other rewards (aside those mentioned above) ? if so it sounds like a good idea to make EC playable again SL wise.

You have 2 types of rewards in warthunder:
1- reward for active actions (kills, hits, bomb drops etc)
2- reward for battle time, which is 30% of the reward for active actions, according to Stona.

Dave87 · July 15, 2021

Why would they reduce the reward for landing? This was a hallmark of the SIM mnode, you must land and complete the sortie to get full rewards. Arbitrarily reducing that reward does not fall in line with the spirit of the game mode. Why must they give and take away at the same time? can we not just get a boost to rewrds first, then review and cut back in the next patch.
Devs are trying to fix the whole issue in one patch instead of making changes and checking the effect first. It just seems like they are giving with one hand and taking away with the other, effectively fixing NOTHING.

Battle activity was broken in the last update and now no one is getting more than 80% so i have low hopes for this new change, since the battle activity issue from last patch is stil present.

Gaijin need to simply boost rewards for all useful player actvities except base bombing, reduce repair costs or refund security deposits uponlanding and the game will be sorted. Just give us a fair amount of rp and sl for playing the hardest game mode, and stop punishing us for simply spawning a plane. Its not hard at all, just think logically.

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

1 hour ago, Stona said:

Answer from Dev:

That's a good point.

Median activity is adjusted for the entire game mode to the 80%, while it's obvious for each individual unit it can be lower or higher than this value. In economic updates, the reward for useful actions for each individual unit will be adjusted based on its average activity in order to achieve a specified level of rewards. We'd like to look at the disparity of activity by units and players based on the statistics of test missions and decide on the initial increase in the base reward for useful actions by 25% (up to the level of 80% of the median activity), but we'd not like to do this in advance if it leads to a decrease in the reward for useful actions on all popular units in the next econ update (if the activity on it is above 80%).

Thank you very much for the clarification.

one more thing question:
since SL modifier for planes no longer affect rewards as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong)

Quote

The Silver Lion multiplier doesn't affect the resulting reward for useful actions.

does the same system is used in mixed battles or just air EC?

If it used for both: what is the point of SL multiplier?
if it is used for EC: can we assume that SL-wise EC will now have separate track and set of statistics?

If this means that modes are separated then I think it's a good call. I am a bit worried about repair costs being common but I guess this can be overcome with rewards if needed

20 minutes ago, Dave87 said:

Why would they reduce the reward for landing?

I understand it different. The "withheld" part of the reward is reduced to 20% so you get 80% up front + 20% for landing rather than 50%+50%

Edited July 15, 2021 by przybysz86

ZdrytchX · July 15, 2021

3 hours ago, Stona said:

The scoring of points for simply staying near enemies for this reward system will be disabled.

RIP new players (You're more likely to do zero effective work in SB as a new player trying to get into the game mode imo, at least in RB you're likely to get a few assists here and there even if your KDR is abysmal and you don't do fast-bombing). To be honest this will just even more encourage zombering. WT is supposed to be about the action, not the navigation. That being said its not like battle activity did much in later tiers anyway because being within 1.5km of an enemy while lobbing missiles or shooting your gun that miss is no longer counted towards battle activity (afaik it used to be back before 2018 if the player/enemy were within 3km of each other)

I generally find battle activity% to be a controversial topic because in most cases, whoever achieves the highest score (bombers typically above rank 3 if they can avoid interceptors in half of their flights) are the ones with 100% battle activity, meaning that even if you scored 10 kills in 30 minutes in a non-meta plane such as the F9F-5, you will always have less-than-ideal rewards compared to someone who flew a phantom rocket spamming or CCRP toss-bombing for 20 minutes before getting shot down. But at the same, time, new players that aren't good enough to shoot down an enemy plane and are still "fighting their aircraft" and learning the spot-the-dot game are unable to earn enough to compensate for their aircraft, even at lower ranks.

Regarding assymetric games, there's a lot you could still do despite the balancing issues, such as scaling rewards based on the player count ratio. NS2 had a very similar issue at the fundamental level so I made a very simple patch for it, and it worked somewhat well at stopping people form just joining the bigger team and leaving the smaller team when being outnumbered. At the very minimum, it would at least encourage the grind-zombers to pay for more premium jumps or share more accounts. (in case you haven't seen those chinese accounts with 1 premium aircraft, less than 15 kills and 2000+ deaths in a reserve aircraft)

1 hour ago, Stona said:

in AB 94500 SL/h

in RB 81648 SL/h

in SB 85284 SL/h

Just keep in mind that the majority of the high-rate earners at the moment are likely the zomber players, and the majority of the SL earnings are compensated by the repair costs above rank 4, which are thereby halved for spawn costs, regardless of death. In addition to that, some nations at some ranks such as Japan before rank 7, or Italy at rank 5-7 have abysmal win rates because they are typically chosen as the "victim" nations (i.e. the whole world versus them). There are few nations that are acceptable to have numerous nations fight them, and they are Germany from ranks 2-4 thanks to their Me 264 and abundance of what a certain someone jokingly called "hartmann cosplayers", and USA from ranks 6-7 thanks to their A-2D, the B-57 and their 285 rocket spam phantom with abundant players coming in from RB for a "quick grind."

Also, I recently looked into some old footage of mine when setting my old unlisted videos to public and found that the spawn costs now versus the repair cost then are essentially identical (with a few exceptions such as the Japanese, whose repair costs had always been high in the past), however the earnings have drastically reduced by about 30%, and that's excluding work-reward modifiers (e.g. SL coefficient for killing a player-slot aircraft atm is 800 SL iirc, it used to be around 5000 SL in 2013 during the early days which was quickly reduced to 1000 SL but then compensated for battle activity as the economy system became more complex).

58 minutes ago, onebullet95SPAIN said:

Yes, thats why i said not bombers, they are super easy mode but it differs from RB that they have to fly in cockpit mode in Sim.... still, really easy planes to fly with mouse aim, autolevel mode, autoaim and 3rd person camera.

I actually found bombing way easier in RB than SB because of the bonus altitude spawn combined with the fact that I have a joystick to manouvre my bomber in such a way it makes it hard for them to hit me. However the main difference is that if your plane has poor defensive guns it tends to do much worse in RB, and gunshipping with mouse aim in RB vs mouse aim fighters is tougher, and doing the opposite with a joystick in sim with mouse aim gunners is rediculously easy if you have altitude to bleed.

But that's just my personal opinion. It might just be that as ToteTorres said, I'm too overpowered. *starts lobbing S-24s in a missile dogfight*

Quote

If it used for both: what is the point of SL multiplier?

It does seem kind of useless now if it no longer means anything outside of ground battles. At least it probably won't be as useless like the un-rebindable F1 help-dialogue in sim battles which provide arcade battle tooltips.

przybysz86 · July 15, 2021

@Stona - can you ask devs if it would be possible to give us SL refund (for what we pay to spawn plane) if we don't die (we land and eject or game ends while we are in plane)?
Right now at high BRs plane are sometimes very expensive to fly and we are the only game mode that pays for spawn regardless if we survive or not

20% (previously 50%) of landing reward (which as we know is more penalty for not landing but that's another story) often didn't compensate the spawn cost and you had to have multiple successful sorties to just break even even if you don't die. This is especially problematic if you enter game that ends sooner than you anticipated and for high BR planes that's usually the case since you often get them late into game with less time to regain money back

It won't really require any new mechanics. We already get an SP refund - just extend it for SL as well.

another question: what with activity for passive tasks?

in EC we have Escort mission that right now don't give any personal rewards and often took much more time than reversed tasks of say destroying survillance plane. Shooting down 1 AI plane takes couple miuch longer, depending on how long said AI will stay on station.

Can we expect that those task will be rewarded as well?

Edited July 15, 2021 by przybysz86

AWACS_Thunderhea · July 15, 2021

Removing the rewards for individual actions and rewarding only time + activity is a terrible mistake. And i don't think Sim EC can survive yet another terrible mistake.
I've never seen lobbies so empty and dead as of late (except for the hundreds of farming games).
Hoping for the best, sigh.

+1
Great post.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

RIP new players (You're more likely to do zero effective work in SB as a new player trying to get into the game mode imo, at least in RB you're likely to get a few assists here and there even if your KDR is abysmal and you don't do fast-bombing). To be honest this will just even more encourage zombering. WT is supposed to be about the action, not the navigation. That being said its not like battle activity did much in later tiers anyway because being within 1.5km of an enemy while lobbing missiles or shooting your gun that miss is no longer counted towards battle activity (afaik it used to be back before 2018 if the player/enemy were within 3km of each other)

I generally find battle activity% to be a controversial topic because in most cases, whoever achieves the highest score (bombers typically above rank 3 if they can avoid interceptors in half of their flights) are the ones with 100% battle activity, meaning that even if you scored 10 kills in 30 minutes in a non-meta plane such as the F9F-5, you will always have less-than-ideal rewards compared to someone who flew a phantom rocket spamming or CCRP toss-bombing for 20 minutes before getting shot down. But at the same, time, new players that aren't good enough to shoot down an enemy plane and are still "fighting their aircraft" and learning the spot-the-dot game are unable to earn enough to compensate for their aircraft, even at lower ranks.

Regarding assymetric games, there's a lot you could still do despite the balancing issues, such as scaling rewards based on the player count ratio. NS2 had a very similar issue at the fundamental level so I made a very simple patch for it, and it worked somewhat well at stopping people form just joining the bigger team and leaving the smaller team when being outnumbered. At the very minimum, it would at least encourage the grind-zombers to pay for more premium jumps or share more accounts. (in case you haven't seen those chinese accounts with 1 premium aircraft, less than 15 kills and 2000+ deaths in a reserve aircraft)

Just keep in mind that the majority of the high-rate earners at the moment are likely the zomber players, and the majority of the SL earnings are compensated by the repair costs above rank 4, which are thereby halved for spawn costs, regardless of death. In addition to that, some nations at some ranks such as Japan before rank 7, or Italy at rank 5-7 have abysmal win rates because they are typically chosen as the "victim" nations (i.e. the whole world versus them). There are few nations that are acceptable to have numerous nations fight them, and they are Germany from ranks 2-4 thanks to their Me 264 and abundance of what a certain someone jokingly called "hartmann cosplayers", and USA from ranks 6-7 thanks to their A-2D, the B-57 and their 285 rocket spam phantom with abundant players coming in from RB for a "quick grind."

Also, I recently looked into some old footage of mine when setting my old unlisted videos to public and found that the spawn costs now versus the repair cost then are essentially identical (with a few exceptions such as the Japanese, whose repair costs had always been high in the past), however the earnings have drastically reduced by about 30%, and that's excluding work-reward modifiers (e.g. SL coefficient for killing a player-slot aircraft atm is 800 SL iirc, it used to be around 5000 SL in 2013 during the early days which was quickly reduced to 1000 SL but then compensated for battle activity as the economy system became more complex).

I actually found bombing way easier in RB than SB because of the bonus altitude spawn combined with the fact that I have a joystick to manouvre my bomber in such a way it makes it hard for them to hit me. However the main difference is that if your plane has poor defensive guns it tends to do much worse in RB, and gunshipping with mouse aim in RB vs mouse aim fighters is tougher, and doing the opposite with a joystick in sim with mouse aim gunners is rediculously easy if you have altitude to bleed.

But that's just my personal opinion. It might just be that as ToteTorres said, I'm too overpowered. *starts lobbing S-24s in a missile dogfight*

It does seem kind of useless now if it no longer means anything outside of ground battles. At least it probably won't be as useless like the un-rebindable F1 help-dialogue in sim battles which provide arcade battle tooltips.

Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

Stona_WT 72,761