[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Stahlvormund101 12,039]

Sounds awefully to me facing T-34-85 in +50% of my games in the M4A2 as my highest vehicle.

It's not like regular T-34 bounce my shots more often than not.

[andulrg 352]

M4A2 has the most ridiculous BR in the game. At 4.3 it gets uptiered all the time. It's still same Sherman as the one at 3.3-3.7. Not meant to fight with T-34/85s. I stopped playing it in RB and spaded it in SB.

[CrossEyedN00b 2,397]

T32 -> T5, Panther 2 -> T4

SQB balance has been strongly altered towards Germany or USSR as now only tanks USA can put up with "some armor" are Pershing or Super Pershing and those are practically unarmored.

[_NightHawk66_ 29]

While I'm very happy that they've lowered the br of lower tier jets such as meteor and mig 9 to 7.0, another problem arises for planes that are 6.0. It's literally impossible to fly out bearcats, a26, the D13, AD2, tempest 2 and other 6.0/6.3 props. A little suggestion would be to raise all these jets such as the meteors, mig 9s, p/f80, horton, and the r2y2s to 7.3. This way low tier jets can still face each other but 6.0 and 6.3 props can fight each other too rather than being pulverized each round by jets.

 0

[_NightHawk66_ 29]

While I'm very happy that they've lowered the br of lower tier jets such as meteor and mig 9 to 7.0, another problem arises for planes that are 6.0. It's literally impossible to fly out bearcats, a26, the D13, AD2, tempest 2, and the Griffon spits and other 6.0/6.3 props. A little suggestion would be to raise all these jets such as the meteors, mig 9s, p/f80, horton, and the r2y2s to 7.3. This way low tier jets can still face each other but 6.0 and 6.3 props can fight each other too rather than being pulverized each round by jets.

 0

Edited July 9, 2016 by Ace_NightHawk66

[Rokrar 142]

I understand the Br reduction of the m41 bulldog from 6.3 to 6.0, i just really, but really......seriously,  really dont understand why the m36 have a br of 6.3, same gun as the t25, less mobile than t25. What does it have better to have 0.3 higher br than a tank that is overall better? A better angle ? Really?

[MonstrumKarach 149]

This game is absolute malarkey, tanks that does not belong fight German ww2 tanks, damage system is BS, physics is BS, MM is BS.

 

Give the F single player missions already like Compagns for all nations (GF) so I can avoid this xxxx fest u call game...

[Defender3423 281]

51 minutes ago, AnarchistOfChaos said:

This game is absolute malarkey, tanks that does not belong fight German ww2 tanks, damage system is BS, physics is BS, MM is BS.

 

Give the F single player missions already like Compagns for all nations (GF) so I can avoid this xxxx fest u call game...

yes but you must understand something...

1) this is not a WWII game... is only a copy of WoT... so the dinamic are the same... the BR is calculated about the characteristic of vehicle (if russian -0.5) in fact we have a truck like leopard 1 in T5 with no armour and nothing more than the speed...

2) this game is made for russian childrens (they like to win) so, since they cannot play alone... need other nations to win... so  here you are only to make the fun of russian childrens

3) The maps are similar to WoT... only an arena where vehicles (russians more advanced) not so much similar... but... the russians are always better  so... patience... make the fun of russians players... and nothing more

with regards... max

[CrossEyedN00b 2,397]

35 minutes ago, _BLUEMAX_ said:

yes but you must understand something...

1) this is not a WWII game... is only a copy of WoT... so the dinamic are the same... the BR is calculated about the characteristic of vehicle (if russian -0.5) in fact we have a truck like leopard 1 in T5 with no armour and nothing more than the speed...

2) this game is made for russian childrens (they like to win) so, since they cannot play alone... need other nations to win... so  here you are only to make the fun of russian childrens

3) The maps are similar to WoT... only an arena where vehicles (russians more advanced) not so much similar... but... the russians are always better  so... patience... make the fun of russians players... and nothing more

with regards... max

Lol, if you think USSR tanks are superior...

Get gud

[Defender3423 281]

1 hour ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

Lol, if you think USSR tanks are superior...

Get gud

no i think in T5 the game is all wrong  and the devs (incompetent for me) put vehicles the game not need... T5 is almost unplayable after years... and what they have done ? Well ... after ZSU (stupid add for me) put the IT1... so... the game remain total unbalanced at T5

 

[kev2go 5,112]

On 7/10/2016 at 0:30 PM, _BLUEMAX_ said:

no i think in T5 the game is all wrong  and the devs (incompetent for me) put vehicles the game not need... T5 is almost unplayable after years... and what they have done ? Well ... after ZSU (stupid add for me) put the IT1... so... the game remain total unbalanced at T5

 

oh but tier 5 is very playable, as long as you arent playing ussr. A bit behind in MBT tech with only t54. Playing field should however be somewhat bridged with the addition of the T55 and T62.

 

Also It1 isnt the only agtm tank, every nation got 1 with the update.

Edited July 11, 2016 by kev2go

[FailForceOne05 1]

Lets talk about the Seafire FR 47 in RB

Its worse when compared to other griffon spitfires (see attachment) but still at high BR (6.0) and that means it faces 7.0 jets constantly now and frankly its not as suited for fighting those as for example the Spitfire mk22 .I know that stat cards arent everything but even if you look at its Climb rate in-game and lets say ammo count its not as good.

Is it at such Battle rating because of its performance against other players? I hardly see anyone flying it and I think it might fall into the paradox that is only "good" players fly it because of its performance compared to other Spitifires so they get good scores so its a good performing aircraft for its BR and it doesn't change.

I think its a cool plane and if it had a more competitive battle rating more people would fly it.

 

(also wasn't sure where to post this) 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by gaze2
Spelling and added some clearing

[Montaign3 8]

Dear Gaijin Admin:

I really like your game, it is definitely the best in its category no question. I believe I had played this game enough in order to really understand the game and if it has any bias in it. All of my comments would only concern ground forces.

I understand the problem with not enough players, long queue times and limited vehicle variety, but I feel like some of the decisions you guys made have not made the issue better, creating a match limited vehicle variety and less than satisfactory gaming experience. Please here me out.

I am a patron of US tanks. I have also been grinding the British and German tree but have yet to make it as far as the Americans (ironic because I started playing war thunder before patch 1.41). I had a lot of issues with late Sherman variants due to its high BR which had recently been patched. Another reason is that the enemy team (or my team when I play as Germans) is literally full of Tiger and Panther tanks that are far superior than the Shermans. As you have mentioned in the pinned post, these two vehicles might have came from the same time period, historically it takes at least 4 Shermans to knock out a single tiger, with one Sherman remaining on the American side. Panthers is mostly the same, as the thinner side armour is compensated by a faster reload rate and somewhat better mobility. But, this is a thing of the past as it had already been patched. However, I feel like the same thing is happening all over again with American tanks at rank IV.

For better grinding, I have purchase a M26E1 and a M46 Tiger. They are both very decent tanks with good pen and mobility, however is not enough to be evenly matched with the Tiger IIs, including Tiger II P. The Pershing with the upgraded gun have rather poor mobility for a medium tank. There is simply not enough horse power, and I have to say is not much no mobile than the Tiger II. It has a good gun that can one shot many tanks if it penetrates, but the problem is, the only part at the front of a Tiger II which you can penetrate with it are the cheeks. At the same time, Tiger II with its Kwk 43 can penetrate nearly 100% of the time no matter where it shoots. What usually happens in a match is I shoot the Tiger II in its cheek and penetrates (if I'm lucky, that is). I knocked his gunner, and commander out, but the loader as well as other parts of the turret, including the gun breach, turret ring, and gun breach is still operational. While my gun slowly reloads, his gunner would already be replaced by another crew member, putting a shot right in the middle of my chasse and kills every crew, if I wasn't killed by the hoard of other Tiger IIs and Panther IIs, or heck, even Jagdtigers behind it. The M46 can deal with Panther IIs no problem but also have issues with both of the Tiger IIs. They are all at 6.7 for some reason.

Here is my suggestion, please try to start experimenting BR with the official game. I don't think it is very hard to change and is one of the things I believe is causing most of the balancing issues. It would also be much easier if top BR is raised to 9.0.

M26E1 6.7

M46 6.7

M47 7.7

M48 8.0

M60 8.7

M103 8.0

M551 8.3

M42 6.3

Tiger II P 6.7

Tiger II H 7.3

Tiger II 10.5 7.7

Maus 8.3

Panther G 6.3

Panther II 6.7

Leopard I 8.7

Sturer Emil 6.3

Ferdinand 7.0

Jagdtiger 7.7

JPz 4-5 8.3

RktJpz 8.0

Coelian 7.3

Soviet and British Vehicles could be adjusted accordingly since I have limited experience with them.

Sometimes statistics could be misleading, the best way is still playing and testing.

I would be looking forward to naval battles!

 

[lyrillvempos1327 34]

^wat

[Snake509 764]

8 hours ago, Tomcorsnet said:

Dear Gaijin Admin:

I really like your game, it is definitely the best in its category no question. I believe I had played this game enough in order to really understand the game and if it has any bias in it. All of my comments would only concern ground forces.

I understand the problem with not enough players, long queue times and limited vehicle variety, but I feel like some of the decisions you guys made have not made the issue better, creating a match limited vehicle variety and less than satisfactory gaming experience. Please here me out.

I am a patron of US tanks. I have also been grinding the British and German tree but have yet to make it as far as the Americans (ironic because I started playing war thunder before patch 1.41). I had a lot of issues with late Sherman variants due to its high BR which had recently been patched. Another reason is that the enemy team (or my team when I play as Germans) is literally full of Tiger and Panther tanks that are far superior than the Shermans. As you have mentioned in the pinned post, these two vehicles might have came from the same time period, historically it takes at least 4 Shermans to knock out a single tiger, with one Sherman remaining on the American side. Panthers is mostly the same, as the thinner side armour is compensated by a faster reload rate and somewhat better mobility. But, this is a thing of the past as it had already been patched. However, I feel like the same thing is happening all over again with American tanks at rank IV.

For better grinding, I have purchase a M26E1 and a M46 Tiger. They are both very decent tanks with good pen and mobility, however is not enough to be evenly matched with the Tiger IIs, including Tiger II P. The Pershing with the upgraded gun have rather poor mobility for a medium tank. There is simply not enough horse power, and I have to say is not much no mobile than the Tiger II. It has a good gun that can one shot many tanks if it penetrates, but the problem is, the only part at the front of a Tiger II which you can penetrate with it are the cheeks. At the same time, Tiger II with its Kwk 43 can penetrate nearly 100% of the time no matter where it shoots. What usually happens in a match is I shoot the Tiger II in its cheek and penetrates (if I'm lucky, that is). I knocked his gunner, and commander out, but the loader as well as other parts of the turret, including the gun breach, turret ring, and gun breach is still operational. While my gun slowly reloads, his gunner would already be replaced by another crew member, putting a shot right in the middle of my chasse and kills every crew, if I wasn't killed by the hoard of other Tiger IIs and Panther IIs, or heck, even Jagdtigers behind it. The M46 can deal with Panther IIs no problem but also have issues with both of the Tiger IIs. They are all at 6.7 for some reason.

Here is my suggestion, please try to start experimenting BR with the official game. I don't think it is very hard to change and is one of the things I believe is causing most of the balancing issues. It would also be much easier if top BR is raised to 9.0.

M26E1 6.7

M46 6.7

M47 7.7

M48 8.0

M60 8.7

M103 8.0

M551 8.3

M42 6.3

Tiger II P 6.7

Tiger II H 7.3

Tiger II 10.5 7.7

Maus 8.3

Panther G 6.3

Panther II 6.7

Leopard I 8.7

Sturer Emil 6.3

Ferdinand 7.0

Jagdtiger 7.7

JPz 4-5 8.3

RktJpz 8.0

Coelian 7.3

Soviet and British Vehicles could be adjusted accordingly since I have limited experience with them.

Sometimes statistics could be misleading, the best way is still playing and testing.

I would be looking forward to naval battles!

 

That would give the 6.3's to 7.7's some desperately needed breathing room....Soviets would probably have the only 9.0 (IT-1).  I think now is the time for this to happen.....

[Defender3423 281]

17 hours ago, kev2go said:

Also It1 isnt the only agtm tank, every nation got 1 with the update.

yes... as always EVERY NATION got the toy... but as always the russian toy is better armoured, with better speed and better ammo (but the BR remain the same).

For example... that TRUCK that in the game is called leopard 1 (every single hit, in every part of the tank, from every tank in the game starting from BR 5 to 8 destroy it) if the game is not historical but is balanced about the characteristics of vehicle... why it has a BR of 8 when is similar at all to the T44-100 ?

We want to speack about the ONLY TRASH A.T. that german has at Tier 5 ? 

Well that 'truck' with useless ammo for tier 5 has only speed... if there is some wind it is disabled or explode...

those tanks are supposed (for gaijin) that must face toys like T80, ZSU (a walking bug of the game) and not IT-1 that it has a BR of 7.7... please is evident that developers are in panic and not know what they are doing

 

Now the game is not Historical, is not balanced about vehicles, is not balanced with the 'pacman' maps full of trees everywhere... is ONLY a small arena where many kinds of vehicles fight each other and win always URSS for evident reasons (for the psicanalist this is called 'p.e.n.i.s. syndrome' )

 

with regards... max

Edited July 12, 2016 by _BLUEMAX_

[Markus752 3,354]

New change: The uber-superprop FW190 A5/U2 is now allowed to fight jets in Arcade! *facepalm*

 

Can we noe have a higher BR of it? I suggest something around the level of a Tu-4 as it has 6 cannons overwhelming armament... xD

[Leandrys 4,241]

20 minutes ago, Markus752 said:

New change: The uber-superprop FW190 A5/U2 is now allowed to fight jets in Arcade! *facepalm*

 

 

 

Is of better variety of vehicles met in battles, is better for tovarish A5U2. Will help to improve queue times by reducing the daily player's pick cause players will leave the game because of angryness.

 

Good gamedesign, will work as intended.

 

+ Komrad LA7 4.0 in AB will have more variety of ennemies by able to meet 2.7 rank 1 or 2 ennemies if reduced to 3.7, is good for community's pleasure.

 

++ Premium P47 german and russian will fight 1.3 ennemies, very good for new players on the game, will learn them a lot by getting PWND by rank 3 fighters with 8x12.7mm late bands while flying their brand new Sea Fury Gladiator, extremely good decision, 100% awesome experience for new players. The more variety of ennemies in battle, the best pleasure and happyness.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Leandrys

[kev2go 5,112]

15 minutes ago, Leandrys said:

 

Is of better variety of vehicles met in battles, is better for tovarish A5U2. Will help to improve queue times by reducing the daily player's pick cause players will leave the game because of angryness.

 

Good gamedesign, will work as intended.

 

+ Komrad LA7 4.0 in AB will have more variety of ennemies by able to meet 2.7 rank 1 or 2 ennemies if reduced to 3.7, is good for community's pleasure.

 

++ Premium P47 german and russian will fight 1.3 ennemies, very good for new players on the game, will learn them a lot by getting PWND by rank 3 fighters with 8x12.7mm late bands while flying their brand new Sea Fury Gladiator, extremely good decision, 100% awesome experience for new players. The more variety of ennemies in battle, the best pleasure and happyness.

 

 gajin  shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by kev2go

[EinsamerWolf_93 120]

i cant understand, pls tell me without BR limitation in new MM for example Fw 190 A-4 meet F-86F-2 Sabre ? or panzer 3 meet IS3 ?

[tizianenel 2,124]

AB (without BR averaging!):

 

- P-47 given permission to club rank1 planes of BR 2.0 or above.

- He 219 A-7 and its 4x30mm+2x20mm may come as a shock to B-25J-1, Wellington Mk X and Halifax as well as H8K2 and the first two Ki-49's.

- Fw 190 A-4 can now meet a Griffon Spitfire (XVIe and XVIII).

- Fw 190 A-5/U2 fights 7.0 jets.

- H8K2, the rank 1 bomber, is in BR range of more rank3's than rank1's. In fact, it even gets the chance to meet rank4 planes (Yak-9U, La-7, Me 410 A-1/U2, P-38J-15, both P-51D's)

- I-16 type 27, a fighter with under 500km/h top speed, is in BR range of F8F-1, P-38J's, P-51D's, Yak-9U, I-185(M-71), La-7, Spit Mk XVI and Ki-84 Ko.

etc...

 

RB:

 

- The 1940 A6M2 finally gets to fight its historical opponent, the P-51D-5.

- F2A-3 meets 109 F-4, La-5F, Spitfire Mk Vb and A6M3

- B-17E/L vs He 162 A-2, Yak-15's, Yak-17 and Kikka.

 

 

...

 

Only one plane that I can think of in this game benefits from this change without seriously making life worse for another: Tempest mk V (Vickers P), Rank4 BR 4.0

Edited July 12, 2016 by tizianenel

[lyrillvempos1327 34]

vickers p doesn't feel much different from vickers s, of course, given it's trolly nature, most people prefer the vickers s

[*Tadz_ 1,791]

1 hour ago, tizianenel said:

AB (without BR averaging!):

 

- P-47 given permission to club rank1 planes of BR 2.0 or above.

- He 219 A-7 and its 4x30mm+2x20mm may come as a shock to B-25J-1, Wellington Mk X and Halifax as well as H8K2 and the first two Ki-49's.

- Fw 190 A-4 can now meet a Griffon Spitfire (XVIe and XVIII).

- Fw 190 A-5/U2 fights 7.0 jets.

- H8K2, the rank 1 bomber, is in BR range of more rank3's than rank1's. In fact, it even gets the chance to meet rank4 planes (Yak-9U, La-7, Me 410 A-1/U2, P-38J-15, both P-51D's)

- I-16 type 27, a fighter with under 500km/h top speed, is in BR range of F8F-1, P-38J's, P-51D's, Yak-9U, I-185(M-71), La-7, Spit Mk XVI and Ki-84 Ko.

etc...

 

RB:

 

- The 1940 A6M2 finally gets to fight its historical opponent, the P-51D-5.

- F2A-3 meets 109 F-4, La-5F, Spitfire Mk Vb and A6M3

- B-17E/L vs He 162 A-2, Yak-15's, Yak-17 and Kikka.

 

 

...

I don't get the joke either, the thread that announced these changes was called "mm optimisation", not "we figured out how to ruin mm even more"...

 

 

[tizianenel 2,124]

1 hour ago, lyrillvempos1327 said:

vickers p doesn't feel much different from vickers s, of course, given it's trolly nature, most people prefer the vickers s

 

Vickers S is better as it has the choice of ammo, while vickers P is limited to AP only (which actually has trouble killing armoured targets). It's also mounted on a plane with much lower BR.

[EinsamerWolf_93 120]

2 hours ago, tizianenel said:

AB (without BR averaging!):

 

- P-47 given permission to club rank1 planes of BR 2.0 or above.

- He 219 A-7 and its 4x30mm+2x20mm may come as a shock to B-25J-1, Wellington Mk X and Halifax as well as H8K2 and the first two Ki-49's.

- Fw 190 A-4 can now meet a Griffon Spitfire (XVIe and XVIII).

- Fw 190 A-5/U2 fights 7.0 jets.

- H8K2, the rank 1 bomber, is in BR range of more rank3's than rank1's. In fact, it even gets the chance to meet rank4 planes (Yak-9U, La-7, Me 410 A-1/U2, P-38J-15, both P-51D's)

- I-16 type 27, a fighter with under 500km/h top speed, is in BR range of F8F-1, P-38J's, P-51D's, Yak-9U, I-185(M-71), La-7, Spit Mk XVI and Ki-84 Ko.

etc...

 

RB:

 

- The 1940 A6M2 finally gets to fight its historical opponent, the P-51D-5.

- F2A-3 meets 109 F-4, La-5F, Spitfire Mk Vb and A6M3

- B-17E/L vs He 162 A-2, Yak-15's, Yak-17 and Kikka.

 

 

...

 

Only one plane that I can think of in this game benefits from this change without seriously making life worse for another: Tempest mk V (Vickers P), Rank4 BR 4.0

 

this changes is good only for Rank 5 players, Fw 190 A-4 dont have any chance against Spitfire XVIII, after new MM this game will be **** for new players, they dont have any chance to kill rank 4 or 5 vehicles

no thanks, right now i am in between rank 3 and 4 (Fw 190 A-5) and i dont want fight with rank 5 jets, they kill my A-5 like a rabbit and i dont have any chance, its ridiculous and illogical. i prefer to leave the game

Edited July 12, 2016 by IA3HH