[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Nefer666 3,807]

26 minutes ago, Idontknowwhy said:

 

But i was aiming in another place... If u set low speed, 50 m before tank my ammo dissappear. Is this normal ? 

 

Sadly in this game it is. Iv bounced on countless t-34, which irl wouldnt happen. 

[Idontknowwhy 87]

T-34-85 should be 5.7. This tank at 5.7 has low points, so he can resp 4-5x time...  no one sees? Today i win 3/13 games.... I have 3-5 kill per games and I lose. 

[tenSne1 0]

It is an amazing game program .. that has to work with multiple platforms (Macintosh, PC, Play Station, etc) and their OS codes.

 

Of course it is still in Beta mode and trying to work out the bugs .. which keep popping up every update something new and improved it added.

 

There have already been such great constructive ideas such as 'Rescue Awards' for helping another gamer out with repairs or overturned vehicle.

 

There are penalty for Friendly Fire ... but I just recently was cost 7000 SL for my bomb drop on target also hit a suicider plane that also trying to get target as well.

 

I did not try to kill my friendly but accidents happen .. and there is a sliding scale apparently of punishment that goes up to being removed and banned from the game site which is odd as there are friendly fire blocks from shooting at another blue tank. 

 

Your trigger doesn't work ... to bad that doesn't work for airplanes that way.  Save some money.

 

With that said .. the program is set up so that the gamers MUST be harsh with each other, push then out of the way, get more kills, and chase down zones ... as that is the only way to make SLs for more game play and to purchase upgrades when they come available.

 

I am in Heavy Tank range of the research and I am hopelessly outclassed ... I only have a medium tank and it is gone in a few minutes.

 

Sometimes the tank I have will always be destroyed and there is no clever way to avoid that .. as one side at 30 tanks for example, and your side only has 15 tanks.

 

There is no way to win the mission ... the best thing is to get as many kills as you can to pay for the 5000 SL cost of repairs for a total loss and 3000 SL for ammo resupply.

 

Often times now ... one mission is a 2000 SL cost in the negative.

 

Used to be there were rewards for game play that off set that loss ... but not no more.

 

The big rewards of 100,000 plus SL just do not happen any more.

 

With that said there is a 3D driver problem with this new update (Aug 17, 2016) and I have tried to upload the launcher logs and screen shots and what ever else I can but the WarThunder forum will not allow for that uploading with Safari or Firefox browser on my Macintosh for some reason .. nothing can be done about now apparently.

 

I can report the problem like 'Shift Key Down OS Safety Startup' for the computer boot .. and WarThunder will refuse to launch telling me that there is 'No Driver' installed on my NVIDIA GeForce GT 755M graphic card.

 

On normal OS startup Warthunder lauches full screen .. and often times crashes with a 10,000 SL cost to the economics.

 

Warthunder 'thinks' that I left and was really pushed out.

 

I go to Techtool Pro and the Aces fragmentation is always the same damage ... spot on identical with specific ID of what always breaks but there is no way to inform the developers.

 

Anyhow ... keep doing the good work.

 

Might want to consider just hooking up same platforms to each other (like Macintosh players against Macintosh players) for example.

 

I know when I hit a Macintosh tank .. they always stop and have to change crew for 10 seconds or so.

 

I get hit and nothing happens ... the other tank has a reload of 3.8 seconds and I am dead.

 

I hit them .. and they never have a crew rotate as they are on PC or Play Station platform.

 

Often times other platforms the tank is invisible until it fires .. or has no name or red icon about it ... same for when they get planes .. no name or red icon to the plane.

 

It is there .. operated by a gamer ... but it is not there according to my Warthunder program.

 

I can never shoot it ... never get a hit .. never make damage.

 

Me shooting the no name no icon gamer just gives notice of where I am .... then ...

 

One shot from it and I am gone every time.

 

Sort end of it all .. the economics are really bad and set up for cut throat game play.

 

tenSne1

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by tenSne1

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

On August 17, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Idontknowwhy said:

T-34-85 should be 5.7. This tank at 5.7 has low points, so he can resp 4-5x time...  no one sees? Today i win 3/13 games.... I have 3-5 kill per games and I lose. 

The first T-34-85 (with the worse gun) should be 5.3 to keep it out of 4.0 battles. The second one can go to 5.7. Not like it really matters, since 5.7 is such a black hole that most vehicles are up tiered to it constantly. 

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

If you are complaining about bounces off angled armour, you should know that it happens with all nations. I've bounced so many shots in my Panzer IIIs and IVs just by angling my armour. Cromwells have their turret armour so poorly modeled that you can't even shoot at the turret sides without bouncing. The way RNG bounce mechanics are implemented affects everyone, not just Russian tanks. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Sh4g0h0d

[Nefer666 3,807]

But only specific angle have highest bounce %.. Guess what nation uses mostly 60* sloped plates?

[tenSne1 0]

Just had another though to submit for consideration about making the Game Players not so cut throat and more considerate of team play.

 

That is to bring back Friendly Fire on Tanks ... as it makes war more realistic since friendly fire is bad to do in real life ... get tossed in jail for that you know.

 

In the history of the economics .. the person who did the Friendly fire was fined 3000 or so SL ... but the person who got killed .. they had to come up with 10,000 SL for the fix.

 

The penalty fine went back to Warthunder banking ... much good that it would do there and it doesn't teach any lesson while also putting off the person who got clobbered.

 

So THE FIX proposed .. is that the person who did the friendly fire .. THEY PAY for the next tank and reload of the person they killed.

 

The fine is say ... 10,000 SL for running down an AA tank and killing all the occupants .. tank is just fine .. just gone off the map.

 

Which is what it costs me 3000 SL for the ammo ... uses 1 round or 600 rounds ... same cost.

 

Better for the bank to ask for one 1 bullet if all that is used is one bullet.

 

As it is now .. I go on mission and often times there are no plane just heavy tanks.

 

I have NOT researched Heavy Tanks ... but it is open for that off my tier and as such I am in the fight for Heavy Tanks.

 

It would be better for the research to be clicked and then I enter that world ... but not with this program.

 

Regardless .. I come off mission and have all my ammo .. I still have to pay 3000 SL for a new reload.

 

I do not want to go into the psychology of why Friendly Fire was taken away .. and only put on fines to Airplanes ... and not Tanks.

 

Nor how misplaced and odious the poor judgement is for no compensation for the person who got killed by friendly fire .. by accident or deliberation.

 

To do so would just bring anger, resentment and bitterness for people to see the truth of what they are doing ... as blame is so much better to deal with.

 

However ... along with what was mentioned in the above here is a fix that gets the job done in my learned opinion.

 

It also takes Gajin off the hook for any stigma ... and for the people with rich dads they will have to pay for the havoc they make.

 

Finally if no one owns a plane to replace out of their own bank .. then there is no fine for that to be transfer over.

 

fair is fair ...

 

tenSne1

 

[Idontknowwhy 87]

2 hours ago, Sh4g0h0d said:

The first T-34-85 (with the worse gun) should be 5.3 to keep it out of 4.0 battles. The second one can go to 5.7. Not like it really matters, since 5.7 is such a black hole that most vehicles are up tiered to it constantly. 

 

 

100 % right !!!

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

3 hours ago, Nefer666 said:

But only specific angle have highest bounce %.. Guess what nation uses mostly 60* sloped plates?

Germany; plenty of slopes on their later vehicles. No wait, the US! Shermans have a 60 degree slopes UFP, and the M10/M18 isn't much worse in terms of angling. 

[Nefer666 3,807]

Nope, Shermans dont have 60* UFP. Germans also dont have 60* except for Leo and Hetzer... Game mechanic is designed specificly as 60* being best slope.Everything below 60* severly underperfom in protection, as even 60* have highest autobounce chance without even taking into account armor thickness, overmatch and penetration.

 

Also, will you people ever learn than even most angled plate must be thick enough to be effective? You cant angle paper and expect it being able to protect you. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Nefer666

[frmrfran 114]

I want to know who determines who will be the high BR and who will be the low.  I am not exaggerating when I say that like 905 of the time I am .7 or 1.0 BELOW the highest tanks.  I counted 13 matches in a row today where I was at least .7 below.  I am so sick of seeing red crosshairs.  Why can't I be matched with some of the players higher than me and some lower?  why can't I fight against 4.3 tanks instead of the 6.0 and 6.3 13 times in a row?  The matching is why I quit many months ago, even letting 3 months of my premium account rot.  I came back hoping the matching had changed..and because I promised my brother that if you ever added the M551 Sheridan I would come back (I was a Sheridan crew member at Ft. Polk).  I don't want an easy game or easy kills.  I want a chance to play competitively and not be afraid to peak around every corner for fear of getting one-shot through the front slope of my heavy tank.

 

This game is addictive and amazing.  I love it...and that is why it bothers me so much when I feel I am at a disadvantage so often.  I would wait longer if I could get into a match with closer BR to mine.  What about being able to simultaneously put my Russian, German and American 'teams' into the cue?  And whichever one fills first off I go.  That might help fill games faster with a tighter BR range.  Thanks for the great entertainment.

[Tigertracks 38]

I would like to know if Gaijin ever plans to even out the BR's.  The American and British tanks, tiers 2 and 3 are woefully overmatched in RB.  For example, the Churchill Mk VII at 4.7, facing 5.7 or higher tanks, has the same gun as the Cromwell 3.3.  All it ever does it bounce shots.  The armor is useless without anything to shoot with.  In RB particularly playing a match with British and American tanks around BR 4-5 is tantamount to suicide.  This is the one area of the game that I feel is grossly inferior to that other tank game.

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

3 hours ago, Nefer666 said:

Nope, Shermans dont have 60* UFP. Germans also dont have 60* except for Leo and Hetzer... Game mechanic is designed specificly as 60* being best slope.Everything below 60* severly underperfom in protection, as even 60* have highest autobounce chance without even taking into account armor thickness, overmatch and penetration.

 

Also, will you people ever learn than even most angled plate must be thick enough to be effective? You cant angle paper and expect it being able to protect you. 

Did you think that the designers of the T-34 picked 60 degrees out of a hat? That is the angle where most shells will bounce, especially APCR. And you're right, The Shermans and Panther and KT don't have a 60 degree UFP...theirs is a mere 55 degrees, offering much the same level of bounciness. 

 

What you are referring to is overmatching. and it is in fact implemented in-game. Unfortunately, the German 88 is a couple millimeters short of being able to overmatch the UFP of the T-34. 

[Nefer666 3,807]

48 minutes ago, Sh4g0h0d said:

Did you think that the designers of the T-34 picked 60 degrees out of a hat? That is the angle where most shells will bounce, especially APCR. And you're right, The Shermans and Panther and KT don't have a 60 degree UFP...theirs is a mere 55 degrees, offering much the same level of bounciness. 

 

What you are referring to is overmatching. and it is in fact implemented in-game. Unfortunately, the German 88 is a couple millimeters short of being able to overmatch the UFP of the T-34. 

 

Oh well, you seem to not know basics, but il try to make you understand. Have a good read. 

 

60 degree is effective, yes, but it need also thickness to prevent shell from overmatch armor. 45mm of hard hardness armor at 60 degrees was effective versus early war 37-45-50mm cannons, but when longer 75mm cannons were common, so thin and hard armor was fatal flaw. Such angle didnt help it at all. In time when t-34 was designed overmatch wasnt a thing really so they didnt know about it and how to prevent it, but later if you take a look at t-43 and t-44 projects you will realize that they designed them with overmatch in mind against most common gun they fought against. 

 

In reality Sherman armor was actually less sloped, but was thicker. Result of this was much better protection than t-34 against most common German 75mm pak/kwk 40.
In game, 60* have big advantage over 55*. Why? Terrible slope modifiers for anything below 60*. Plenty of sources were directed at Gaijin and nothing happend. 

 

I know what i'm refering at. Overmatch isnt static value. It happens whenever shells overmatch(T/D ratio) favours shells diameter over armor thickness. Even 50mm cannon have slight overmatch vs t-34 45mm armor, but only at cannon caliber of 75mm ratio is good enough to actually make big diffrence. KwK 40 in theory could penetrate t-34 hull at around really low distance, but in practice, t-34 hull was vulnerable at over 1000m. Partially thanks to overmatch and high hardness armor which was TERRIBLE against overmatching shells. When penetrated, armor tended to crack and large pieces of plate were flying inside tank. In case of 88mm effect was even more visible(spectacular), not to even mention 128. 

This is nice read if youre interested in more details. 

http://ruhrpottpatriot.tumblr.com/post/73235077911/crash-course-tanks-overmatching-and-why-some

Edited August 19, 2016 by Nefer666

[Leandrys 4,241]

5.3 is actually a huge bias level for soviet tree, most maps feels simply perfectly designed for them as they require agility, good turret mobility, post pen damages allowing to have 75%+ of one-shot and of course survivability and resilience.

Yeah, we're talking of you T34 85, exactly you.

[yanegra22 2]

Anyone else getting +0.7 and +1.0 every single game in pz iv f2? I still manage 2:1 KD ratio but its freaking annoying. Same thing happens with my is2. I just cant play a game in my is2(with a br 6.0 lineup) without seeing king tigers and t29 right now.

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

13 hours ago, Leandrys said:

5.3 is actually a huge bias level for soviet tree, most maps feels simply perfectly designed for them as they require agility, good turret mobility, post pen damages allowing to have 75%+ of one-shot and of course survivability and resilience.

Yeah, we're talking of you T34 85, exactly you.

I was thinking of the Tiger I, but to each their own. 

[LoneAxer 528]

Any explanation of what happened to quantitative matchmaking?

 

Its clearly disabled or not working at all.

[MaybeMaybeNot 1,759]

Just now, LaxeDLL said:

Any explanation of what happened to quantitative matchmaking?

 

Its clearly disabled or not working at all.

 

explain  your issue , what you think is not working exactly 

[Attic_Annie 488]

On 8/18/2016 at 5:32 PM, Tigertracks said:

I would like to know if Gaijin ever plans to even out the BR's.  The American and British tanks, tiers 2 and 3 are woefully overmatched in RB.  For example, the Churchill Mk VII at 4.7, facing 5.7 or higher tanks, has the same gun as the Cromwell 3.3.  All it ever does it bounce shots.  The armor is useless without anything to shoot with.  In RB particularly playing a match with British and American tanks around BR 4-5 is tantamount to suicide.  This is the one area of the game that I feel is grossly inferior to that other tank game.

I've been having a lot of success in tier 2 American tanks (even eating up T-34s with my Sherman), with the notable exception of the 105 sherman- assault guns should NOT have been added without giving them actual targets. The Sherman (105), StuH 42, and Su-122 are absolutely worthless because they can't do more than blow someone's track off. Kindof wonder why they're tiered the same as useful tanks like the M4 (75), StuG, and T-34

Edited August 21, 2016 by Wusten_Fuchs

[panzerpaddel 793]

yesterday I needed two...yes "2"! HE shells from a brummbär to actually kill a Dicker Max.

A HE shell like this wasnt enough to destroy a T-34 because i hit the drivers hatch...this hatch absorbed everything!

Things like these are terrible

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

23 hours ago, Wusten_Fuchs said:

I've been having a lot of success in tier 2 American tanks (even eating up T-34s with my Sherman), with the notable exception of the 105 sherman- assault guns should NOT have been added without giving them actual targets. The Sherman (105), StuH 42, and Su-122 are absolutely worthless because they can't do more than blow someone's track off. Kindof wonder why they're tiered the same as useful tanks like the M4 (75), StuG, and T-34

Have you seen the penetration on those tanks' HEAT rounds? There's your answer. 

[_Rustle_ 532]

On 8/20/2016 at 0:33 AM, Hunternz said:

explain  your issue , what you think is not working exactly 

 

Could you provide a definitive answer on QMM? It looks like it has been turned off completely. Is that true, or is it turned on if the player count is high enough?

 

If it is still working at some or all times, what tier/BR does it apply to?

 

To me (mostly playing at times with the lowest player count) it looks like it was removed.

[Idontknowwhy 87]

t-34-85 + KV 220 i s too much OP. Gaijin maybe do something ? 

[*Relicsbane 21]

Why are all these topics lumped under one thread? Is it basically a "we are letting you come here to whine, but don't expect anything to ever be done about issues brought up here because it's too much to go through" thread? You can't coherently discuss any of these topics when they are all thrown into one big messy pile.