[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Orvel 7]

37 minutes ago, frmrfran said:

Everything is OP to me...I play Russian tanks a lot. My rounds just bounce.  The same shots will kill me in the same type of vehicle...but I can't get kills.  it is amazing.  I was a crewman on M3 BVF and M551...I know how to tank...I know where to aim.  Nothing works in this game.  it is almost like it is random and only for certain people.  I will have one game where I kill everything, then 19 games where I get a handful of assists.  It is so frustrating.  I just want an even playing field.  Tell me 2 direct hits to the front of a plane old Panther in with my 105mm T28 can't even keep him from driving off, let alone kill?  I* can turn everyone in the enemy vehicle red, but he functions.  I don't care if their stamina is 10...that's BS.  Oh, but it is nice occasionally killing Tiger I's from the front with my T34 85 

 

I feel the very same way, and it literally drives me mad.

I had to quit the other day because I got so angry, game after game I kept getting killed in one or two hits. But every time I sent a round downrange, it bounced or completely missed any crew members.

[Lancasthor 1]

On 25.8.2016 at 4:22 PM, Jagd27 said:

 

No Bias just easy mode xD

Either you are the sole reason for my horrible M18 losing streak, or there might be a little balance issue.
Devs could just check the statistics and see if the Russian teams have like 9 of 10 victories in battles for this tier and maybe then proceed to do something about it.

M18 Hellcat (BR 5.0) seriously feels like a hard mode.
It can be enjoyable as a challenge, but usually ends up frustrating.

[RVixen 931]

• No wonder why KV220 with MORE armor than Tiger's overall armor with ANTI-TIGER GUNfighting against BR 5.0 - 4..3 victims that can't hurt KV220 c@ncer team.
• No wonder why Tu-4 was placed at same BR6.3 like B-29 armed deadly 23mm
• No wonder why captured P-39K-1 outperforms original US version.
• No wonder why Tier 4 shell bounce on BR 3.3 T34's hull with ease, even Jagdtiger's deadly 128mm bounce it frontally in combat range.
• No wonder why 12g frag hand grenade can kill humans inside tank, somehow 50-75g frag can't kill humans anyways? Don't worry as long STOCK USSR SHELL (76/85/100/122) got massive nuke filler that is '1-shot-guaranteed'. "Why not", lets nerf whole nations damage as long stock shell take easy 1 shot kill, while everyone trying to unlock shell (with pain) that delivers.

Gaijin's logic:

- If it's new USSR vehicle, make sure it's BR 1.0-1.3 lower than were it should be.

- Every new major patch should have premium/non-premium USSR vehicle, lets skip Japan/USA/Brits/German at some point.

- T-34-85 with over 60% win ratio = balanced "according to stats", while US/Brits suffers negative win/loss ratio while shrinking to stone death.

 

The  "B Team" say their are fixing damage models/Battle Ratings/Flight Models. But who broke it in the first place? Your developers, your policies. Shame on you Gaijin!

[oOMyLittlePwnyOo 56]

Reserve planes fighting against Lagg3's and 110C's

 

It's a joke Gaijin, your game has been a joke since you brought in the Battle Rating system

 

It was a hell of a lot more balanced when you balanced by era and had 20 tiers not to mention it was more fun

 

But like this thread and all other threads before it offering feedback you will not listen, go your own way and wonder why your game keeps bleeding players once they've played enough to realise there is serious issues with balanced and enjoyable gameplay

 

You only have to look at the steamstats to see that everytime there's a major patch you get a massive increase in peak players, then it suddenly drops by at least 50% when people that nothing has changed. You have less peak players now than you did 3 years ago, it says it all and average player count has only marginally improved.

 

I mean sure it probably works you get new players they get premium time, you make some money off them, then they quit and you just keep your model based off new players buying premium for a while, while not caring to retain old players, it obviously works for you but it doesn't make for a healthy game

[tovarisch_ivan 87]

14 hours ago, RNCoetzee said:

• No wonder why KV220 with MORE armor than Tiger's overall armor with ANTI-TIGER GUNfighting against BR 5.0 - 4..3 victims that can't hurt KV220 c@ncer team.
• true
• No wonder why Tu-4 was placed at same BR6.3 like B-29 armed deadly 23mm
• at 8.0 now lol
• No wonder why captured P-39K-1 outperforms original US version.
• No wonder captured japan  f4u outperforms murican one
• No wonder why Tier 4 shell bounce on BR 3.3 T34's hull with ease, even Jagdtiger's deadly 128mm bounce it frontally in combat range.
• No wonder is 4 122 mil shell bounces on leo ufp, or comet apds bounces on nashorn
• No wonder why 12g frag hand grenade can kill humans inside tank, somehow 50-75g frag can't kill humans anyways? Don't worry as long STOCK USSR SHELL (76/85/100/122) got massive nuke filler that is '1-shot-guaranteed'. "Why not", lets nerf whole nations damage as long stock shell take easy 1 shot kill, while everyone trying to unlock shell (with pain) that delivers.
• look at 88 stock, panther 75 stock, panzer 4 stock, etc
•  
• Gaijin's logic:

- If it's new USSR vehicle, make sure it's BR 1.0-1.3 lower than were it should be. N

- Every new major patch should have premium/non-premium USSR vehicle, lets skip Japan/USA/Brits/German at some point.

- T-34-85 with over 60% win ratio = balanced "according to stats", while US/Brits suffers negative win/loss ratio while shrinking to stone death.

 

The  "B Team" say their are fixing damage models/Battle Ratings/Flight Models. But who broke it in the first place? Your developers, your policies. Shame on you Gaijin!

 

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

22 hours ago, RNCoetzee said:

• No wonder why KV220 with MORE armor than Tiger's overall armor with ANTI-TIGER GUNfighting against BR 5.0 - 4..3 victims that can't hurt KV220 c@ncer team.
• No wonder why Tu-4 was placed at same BR6.3 like B-29 armed deadly 23mm
• No wonder why captured P-39K-1 outperforms original US version.
• No wonder why Tier 4 shell bounce on BR 3.3 T34's hull with ease, even Jagdtiger's deadly 128mm bounce it frontally in combat range.
• No wonder why 12g frag hand grenade can kill humans inside tank, somehow 50-75g frag can't kill humans anyways? Don't worry as long STOCK USSR SHELL (76/85/100/122) got massive nuke filler that is '1-shot-guaranteed'. "Why not", lets nerf whole nations damage as long stock shell take easy 1 shot kill, while everyone trying to unlock shell (with pain) that delivers.

Gaijin's logic:

- If it's new USSR vehicle, make sure it's BR 1.0-1.3 lower than were it should be.

- Every new major patch should have premium/non-premium USSR vehicle, lets skip Japan/USA/Brits/German at some point.

- T-34-85 with over 60% win ratio = balanced "according to stats", while US/Brits suffers negative win/loss ratio while shrinking to stone death.

 

The  "B Team" say their are fixing damage models/Battle Ratings/Flight Models. But who broke it in the first place? Your developers, your policies. Shame on you Gaijin!

KV220 may have better armour, but the Tiger I has similar levels if angled and has a much better gun. The 85mm F-30 has similar performance to the D-5T, but has none of the upgraded rounds that make that gun worth using. KV220 also has worse mobility even with the upgraded engine than a T-34 or KV-1S. I'd take a Tiger I any day. 

 

TU-4 actually ended helping the game, ironically. It forced Gaijin to limit bombers to four per team, ending the plague upon the game that was bomberspam. Now the TU-4 fights top-tier jets, although it should be sent to 9.0 so it does so exclusively. 

 

You are plainly wrong about the P-39K, as you are only referencing the statcards (which only apply to AB). The P-39K is much slower than the P-39N, it only turns better while also having a higher BR than the P-39N. 

 

Overmatching isn't properly implemented, but that hurts every nation. I've bounced shells in my Panzer II and IV that should have penetrated, and ricocheted off the sides of a Sherman when I should have overmatched. 

 

You want to see a nuke shell? Try any Pzgr.39 from a 75mm or better. That really is the equivalent of a defensive grenade set off inside a tank, albeit with much more capability to damage internal components and start fires. 

 

Where are you getting these winrates for the T-34-85? If it's Thunderskill or your own confirmation bias, you're going to have to give better evidence to make a decent argument. 

22 hours ago, oOMyLittlePwnyOo said:

You only have to look at the steamstats to see that everytime there's a major patch you get a massive increase in peak players, then it suddenly drops by at least 50% when people that nothing has changed. You have less peak players now than you did 3 years ago, it says it all and average player count has only marginally improved.

I'm tried of this particular canard, because it's so easy to disprove. If you check those same Steam charts, War Thunder is doing better than SMITE and many non-western MMOs. Why? War Thunder and those games have their won launchers, and most people play with War Thunder's own launcher. Unless you have data from Gaijin about the playerbase, it's no use to try to extrapolate it from flawed sources like Steam charts. 

[Idontknowwhy 87]

Balance?

 

All batles german 6.7 br met 7.3 Russian tanks... T-54 + IS3 vs panther II and Tiger 2 H. Nice Logic. you do not believe? 

 

Check it ... 

Russian Bias part 1  Russian br 7.3 vs 6.7

Russian Bias part 2  Russian br 7.3 vs 6.7

 

If u want more ... 

 

If you have propaganda in a country that does not boast about it all over Europe

 

It was my last battle in this game. I don't care about next update and another situation. My 3 friends end too like me. I never met game like this when 1 nation is favourite too much. 

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by Idontknowwhy

[fufubear 6,705]

On 8/26/2016 at 0:21 PM, RNCoetzee said:

• No wonder why Tu-4 was placed at same BR6.3 like B-29 armed deadly 23mm
• No wonder why captured P-39K-1 outperforms original US version

1. Yeah but now the tu 4 is the highest rated prop in the game at 8.0 in realistic so that kind of makes this point moot. 

2. The US does not have a p39k and the p39k (p400 is pretty much a p39k but only has a 20 mm cannons and is rated 1.0 lower)  is the slowest of all p39s at altitude. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by fufubear
Spelling

[iRambL 55]

Why is #7 not MM that is considered in the TIERS that already exist in the game? They would force players not to slide in larger tanks. And considering it wouldn't allow jets v props

[Nomad_Gaming 6,221]

1 hour ago, fufubear said:

1. Yeah but now the tu 4 is the highest rated prop in the game at 8.0 in realistic so that kind of makes this point moot. 

2. The US does not have a p39k and the p39k (p400 is pretty much a p39k but only has a 20 mm cannons and is rated 1.0 lower)  is the slowest of all p39s at altitude. 

 

The P-400 flies like a brick, but that's besides the point. The P-39k does perform ever so slightly better than the regular P-39N, at least from my observations. With Poryshkin's P-39N, however, it's a whole different ball game. Sure, you have little to no ammunition, but the weight taken from the additional rifle-caliber guns and their ammunition makes it climb and maneuver that much more quickly.

[Idontknowwhy 87]

1 minute ago, iRambL said:

Why is #7 not MM that is considered in the TIERS that already exist in the game? They would force players not to slide in larger tanks. And considering it wouldn't allow jets v props

 

Very good idea. But this game has not enough players, because this is russian propaganda and people run away. Like this movie: 

 

 

[Sh4g0h0d 1,852]

2 hours ago, Idontknowwhy said:

Balance?

 

All batles german 6.7 br met 7.3 Russian tanks... T-54 + IS3 vs panther II and Tiger 2 H. Nice Logic. you do not believe? 

 

Check it ... 

Russian Bias part 1  Russian br 7.3 vs 6.7

Russian Bias part 2  Russian br 7.3 vs 6.7

 

If u want more ... 

 

If you have propaganda in a country that does not boast about it all over Europe

 

It was my last battle in this game. I don't care about next update and another situation. My 3 friends end too like me. I never met game like this when 1 nation is favourite too much. 

 

Yu were expecting 6.7 tanks to be comparable to vehicles at a near full uptier? Keep on dreaming buddy; BR compression ensures that uptiers at high-tiers are certain death for any nation. Nobody seems to complain when 7.0 tanks get uptiered to fight the Leo 1, the est tank in the game by far. 

[fufubear 6,705]

25 minutes ago, Nomad_Gaming said:

 

The P-400 flies like a brick, but that's besides the point. The P-39k does perform ever so slightly better than the regular P-39N, at least from my observations. With Poryshkin's P-39N, however, it's a whole different ball game. Sure, you have little to no ammunition, but the weight taken from the additional rifle-caliber guns and their ammunition makes it climb and maneuver that much more quickly.

The p39k does not out perform the p39n. It has the same or similar weight with an engine that is more tuned to low altitudes and an inferior propeller . In this game it is mostly useless since it reaches its top speed at around 2.4k and primary engagements take place at higher altitudes. In fact the p39n beats it's top speed at a lower altitude (capable of 613 at 1.5 k) and performs better at higher altitudes.

 

The weight difference allows Poryshkin's p39 to have better performance. It's not too far fetched. Four browning machine guns and 3000 rounds of ammunition removed would give a noticeable difference in weight.  Of course it should probably be raised in br to reflect it's better performance but then again thas just another case of undertiered planes that are in every nation not just the soviets. 

20 minutes ago, Idontknowwhy said:

 

How much you pay Gaijin for writing such nonsense? I read your comments, still you dispose of our mind. Detects only the advantages of the game.

How about you address his argument?

[Tantor57 10,318]

in what world is the 85 mm anti tiger gun ? wasn't IRL, is not in game. Angle the Tiger at 30° your front armor is between 120 and 140 mm effective depending where the shell hits, side still offer a minimum of 145 mm of armor and the turret is far from being weak with all that overlapping armor. Tiger H1 is much better protected against KV 220 than the other way around. I'm not saying KV 220 is a bad tank but it is not as good as the Tiger. Now what makes the KV 220 OP is because T34-85 D5T and T34-85 ZiS 53 are being spammed constantly overloading the MM thus making them 75% of the time top dogs in the game they join and since KV 220 is tiered along them you can have a really potent heavy tank that is also constantly top dog aswell, thats also why KV 220 is such easy mode, it's only thanks to T34-85 spam. 

 

2 or 3 Tiger H1 when top tier and in hand of competent player can also pretty much wipe and entire team out.

 

Moreover I do not really think KV 220 can be uptiered because it simply doesnt have the gun to deal with 6.7 tanks, Tiger H1 whose gun is vastly better than the 85 mm already struggled pretty much and feels totally misspaced in a 6.7 games, I'm not even imagining how the KV 220 would fare there.

 

Endelss story of clubbed ot be clubbed achine fan club which prioviledged members are: Maus, T54-47, IS3, IS4 and now KV 220. SOme being on the right side of the MM while others are not.

 

KV 220 is only one more proof that the BR system in it's current state cannot work unless it's expanded to at least 10.0 with tanks being re-Br'd accordingly, anyway, I think the current "historical era line up" bezing currently tested as an event is the way to go for War Thunder when it comes to RB and SB. That's the only system i can see to work on the long run with of course quite a few improvements to what it currently is but the main idea is the right direction to go

[Idontknowwhy 87]

Pls compare russian win ratio vs german win ratio. Even Russian average player has better win ratio than german good player with better stats. This is truth. I wait many months but now I know that this game is waste my time. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Idontknowwhy

[warrior412 14,723]

2 hours ago, Idontknowwhy said:

Pls compare russian win ratio vs german win ratio. Even Russian average player has better win ratio than german good player with better stats. This is truth. I wait many months but now I know that this game is waste my time. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Most of our team was German; perhaps 2 or 3 Russians among us. I was in a BR ~2.3-2.7 lineup with the Germans and as you can see, things went swimmingly.

 

Win rate is not a terribly good metric to base assessments on. Individual efforts are usually insufficient to save games from poor teams, particularly so in ground forces.

Edited August 28, 2016 by warrior412

[Loongsheep 5,339]

Ground Force AB games are basically IT-1 Simulator now. You drive anything else? You die immediately. IT-1 seems to be more deadly than before as I haven't survived a single hit for the last 5 rounds (in Chieftain and Conqueror).

 

Snapped (my print screen doesn't work) near the end of match:

 

They:

 

My team:

 

And the waiting time for this tier is getting very long (2+ mins vs 30 seconds before) lately. I bet players are leaving.

[Nato_Pig_BE 1,629]

2 hours ago, warrior412 said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Most of our team was German; perhaps 2 or 3 Russians among us. I was in a BR ~2.3-2.7 lineup with the Germans and as you can see, things went swimmingly.

 

Win rate is not a terribly good metric to base assessments on. Individual efforts are usually insufficient to save games from poor teams, particularly so in ground forces.

so true....

 

you can kill half of ennemy team if your team is stupid it's an useless work

[warrior412 14,723]

4 minutes ago, Thomyandgun_Be said:

so true....

 

you can kill half of ennemy team if your team is stupid it's an useless work

 

In AF RB, with skill, positioning and luck, carrying is possible and can be done. Just the other day I whittled down a 1v5 to a 1v1 with 3 kills and an eventual GF victory while in my F2A-3. Tough and down to the final moments of the hour long match, but achievable.

 

I cannot recall the last game where a team facing 1v2 or worse odds has won. Carrying seems to just be far harder in GFs--and often a bridge too far.

Edited August 28, 2016 by warrior412

[Nato_Pig_BE 1,629]

8 minutes ago, warrior412 said:

 

In AF RB, with skill, positioning and luck, carrying is possible and can be done.

 

I cannot recall the last game where a team facing 1v2 or worse odds has won. Carrying seems to just be far harder in GFs--and often a bridge too far.

i see what you mean

 

My best example in GF ab is on poland in Td on the right bank covering the progress of the team and slow ennemies reinforcement but for nothing everybod camp on respawn zone ===)short of ammo and death

Caps zone are fully free however...

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Thomyandgun_Be

[*Tadz_ 1,791]

On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 4:29 AM, Sh4g0h0d said:

KV220 may have better armour, but the Tiger I has similar levels if angled and has a much better gun. The 85mm F-30 has similar performance to the D-5T, but has none of the upgraded rounds that make that gun worth using. KV220 also has worse mobility even with the upgraded engine than a T-34 or KV-1S. I'd take a Tiger I any day. 

 

You do realise the stock aphebc shell is the best round for the 85mm?

 

also, 75mm pzgr nuke rounds? You confusing WT with IRL?

[Leandrys 4,241]

On 27/08/2016 at 6:29 PM, Sh4g0h0d said:

KV220 may have better armour, but the Tiger I has similar levels if angled and has a much better gun. The 85mm F-30 has similar performance to the D-5T, but has none of the upgraded rounds that make that gun worth using. KV220 also has worse mobility even with the upgraded engine than a T-34 or KV-1S. I'd take a Tiger I any day. 

 

 

It must be the third time i'm telling you this, concentrate on playing the game, leave some subjects on the forum alone, you clearly have no idea at all of what you're talking about.

 

For example, the first basic shell on the soviet 85mm is what makes the 85 what it is in game, a pocket KV2. This is just a basic fact in WT, ignoring this reveals a lot of things about your lack of knowledge about the game.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Leandrys

[G4lahad 568]

On 27/08/2016 at 6:29 PM, Sh4g0h0d said:

KV220 may have better armour, but the Tiger I has similar levels if angled and has a much better gun. The 85mm F-30 has similar performance to the D-5T, but has none of the upgraded rounds that make that gun worth using. KV220 also has worse mobility even with the upgraded engine than a T-34 or KV-1S. I'd take a Tiger I any day. 

 

Hi, play the game (and any russian 85mm) first before commenting, you can't give your opinion about a tank on War Thunder only because you played it in World of Tanks.

Thanks.

[MartosG 287]

Please increase the battle rating for the Strv 81. It's simply too good for tanks such as panther D or Tiger I. It can easily destroy opponents with those rockets. I get pissed off every time I see it in my match, the balance in this game is terrible for Germany, good WW2 german tanks are put up against post-war better tanks.

Edited August 31, 2016 by MartosG

[captcole117 111]

Reduce the M4A2 to br 3.7 and give the M10 a decent turret rotation speed so that it isn't a complete joke.