[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[The-Bunkers-7@psn 220]

On 26/03/2023 at 17:44, AmericanBirdy said:

YES

"Inaccurate, Sekrit dokumints say is thicker. Tough ****.

 

Sincerely,Gaijin dev team"

[TheMightySardine 1,427]

Ariete from 9.3 to 8.3 and Sagittario to 8.0 please. I am tired of meeting supersonics with flares,all aspect missles and god knows what in my subsonic 1950 flareless, rwrless plane.

[FKrisz 13]

The simple need against BIAS: ERA against apfsds. In game: it blocks, in reality: doesn't work at all.

[Real K Soze@live 407]

On 27/03/2023 at 19:32, x1BRAVO9x said:

Anyone have an idea (if there is any) about the percentages of where you should place tier wise in the match?

 

I think it is just a matter of luck or a hidden mechanic in the MM. Despite i am not interested in jets (i fly props only) i have similar experiences. If you would like to increase your number of downtiers i would try to fly the nation/plane you get the most full uptiers against you.

 

I fly mainly 3 or 4 planes at BR 3.7 or 4.0 and recently a 5.0 plane. All non US, non GER and non RU and i would say in about 5% of the matches i get a full downtier. The other matches are either full or 0.7 uptiers, 0.3 extremely rare.

 

The only exception of this rule is my IT P-47 at 5.0. Due to the Ju288 spam (you will be allocated to them) and the current IT 109F-4 spam you get 70-80% full uptiers and 20-30% full downtiers. But after April 5th (end of BP challenge for IT 109 F-4) the full downtiers will vanish.

 

If i would wear a tin foil hat, i would claim that flying a plane outside the big 3 nation increases your chances for full uptiers. Furthermore i would claim that the mm considers somehow your performance in your chosen plane and in case you have good statistics your chances for a full uptier and/or the allocation to a team full of rookies increases significantly. But currently i wear no hats...  

 

 

[Zucc_Boi 657]

1 hour ago, FKrisz said:

The simple need against BIAS: ERA against apfsds. In game: it blocks, in reality: doesn't work at all.

IRL it works, just it has nuance, whereas Gaijin didn't implement the countermeasures to it, leaving it OP.

Anti-KE ERA is just simple ERA with thicker steel casing. 

Modern APFSDS include sophisticated tip designs that allow the APFSDS to pierce a hole through the ERA without detonating it, rendering it useless. The new M829A4 for example is the same M829A3, just with a new tip.

Despite Gaijin creating unique exceptions, like the Elefant's vertical hull plates able to shatter any type of APDS shell (regardless of penetration), it doesn't introduce the same exceptions for APFSDS vs ERA. So as it stands, the Soviet ERA will continue working every time.

[x1BRAVO9x 190]

I've never played a game with such maliciously bad match making.

 

There is no way whatsoever this **** show is the result of a random match making algorithm.

 

One of the biggest complaints in World of Tanks is the MM. MM in World of Tanks is divine compared to this **** show. 

[Real K Soze@live 407]

9 hours ago, x1BRAVO9x said:

There is no way whatsoever this **** show is the result of a random match making algorithm.

 

Fully agree dude.

 

Looks like somebody is just too limited in his ability to assess this from a holistic perspective, so he added confused emotes to your and my post . I have zero problems with deviating opinions, so i kindly ask this player to raise a question to understand his pov. Just adding emotes looks not to be the right tool to get another perspective. And for my part - i won't bite.

 

I mean if you read carefully the whole forum you will find a lot of posts implying that some sinister stuff might be implemented. One guy reported (as he tracked his matches very accurate) even changes of the mm depending on certain times during the day, repeating this pattern over a longer period. On the other hand - sometimes the mm looks like having from time to time "a day off". I remember a 17 matches win strike half a year ago (of course without activating a wager) in my B-18B in Air RB. Indirectly proving that there is everything fine with the mm.

 

So even in case you would say the results of the mm were (i assume this as i don't think that negative implications are intended) created with good intentions, the combination of several parameters will lead to unfavorable results for certain players/modes/BR ranges... 

 

Have a good one!

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Uncle J Wick@live

[MinenGishose 4]

On 27/03/2023 at 16:05, Zucc_Boi said:

Machbet: 9.3 -> 9.0.

It is perhaps the least capable SPAA of its BR bracket, and certainly the worst top tier SPAA. Being at 9.3 also prevents it from being used with the 9.0 lineup, and usage above 9.0 means it's competing against SPAA like the Pantsir, ADATS, FlaRakRad etc which are substantially better - not just marginally, but in a way that allows them to defend against high tier strike aircraft that can fire from far beyond the Machbet's range of fire (~2km), meaning the Machbet is defenseless in most cases.

 

Merkava 4B, 4M: 11.0/11.3 -> 10.3

Their poor armor, poor reload rate, average mobility, average gun handling, means they are inadequate at 11.0 and 11.3. 

From a simple perspective of penetration vs armor, they are easily defeated by any weapon, while they lack the ability to penetrate the front armor of other tanks like the T-80BVM. They are unable to compensate for it with better mobility (as other MBTs are as mobile), and the better gun depression vs Soviet tanks is overshadowed by an exceptionally low reload rate.

 

Merkava 4B LIC: 11.0 -> 10.7

Same as the above, but its improved armor makes it more capable, allowing it to be above them in BR.

 

Merkava 3B and 3C: 10.7 -> 10.0

Subpar firepower, subpar mobility, subpar protection. A good gun alone does not compensate, and at 10.7 they definitely struggle, lacking the ability to penetrate a large portion of the 11.3 and 11.0 vehicles, whilst being easily penetrated. Its other parameters are also comparatively bad, and it has very few redeeming qualities, which definitely do not justify being at 10.7. At 10.0 it was good. Not OP, just good, competitive.

 

Magach 6 Gal Batash, Magach 7C: 9.3 -> 9.0

Same as Machbet, at 9.3 they cannot be used in a lineup with Merkavas without pulling them up. They have the M426 round, which is good, but alone does not justify being so high. A below average reload rate, very poor armor, and exceptionally poor mobility, don't provide any redeeming quality. They were fitted with composite armor IRL. Perhaps if it's modeled in game, they could be viable at 9.3, but not at the moment.

 

Merkava 1B, 2B: 9.0 -> 9.3 or buff

If the intention is to create a functional tree, then lineups are needed. Having 2 Merkavas at 9.0 but leaving their SPAA higher, or going for a Magach lineup (why?) with Merkavas as backup when they're very weak in the smallest uptier (to 9.7), is just not very logical. If Gaijin insists on keeping the Machbet and Magachs at 9.3, fine, but then give the Merkavas the 2D treatment - give them the M426 shell they had IRL, perhaps even the M428 as they lack additional armor, and increase their BR to 9.3. 

 

 

I thunk 
Merkava Mk. 3B - 10.7 to 10.3

[Zucc_Boi 657]

6 minutes ago, MinenGishose said:

I thunk 
Merkava Mk. 3B - 10.7 to 10.3

Normally I wouldn't propose such a steep change, but considering the Merkava 3 used to be in 10.0 and was well balanced there, not OP nor weak, I proposed to revert the recent up-tier. 

[MinenGishose 4]

5 minutes ago, Zucc_Boi said:

Normally I wouldn't propose such a steep change, but considering the Merkava 3 used to be in 10.0 and was well balanced there, not OP nor weak, I proposed to revert the recent up-tier. 

Wow i did't notice this, now i get you.

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

Anyone can you tell me what is the point in putting in the Research Ranking vehicles with Thermal Sights and NVD against vehicles that do not? My Chieftains and Khalid and several other tanks should not be going against these type of vehicles. One reason you don't even get a chance top play a game because the enemy see's you first because their vehicles are advanced and use Thermals. I can understand the Br but seems like there is a two rank system going on. It's getting to the point I'll just give up and quit, because what's the point if you're not on the same playing field as the rest. And why keep grinding if all you are going to do when you get uptier that you'll have vehicle in the same ranking that shouldn't be there.

[Zucc_Boi 657]

3 hours ago, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

Anyone can you tell me what is the point in putting in the Research Ranking vehicles with Thermal Sights and NVD against vehicles that do not? My Chieftains and Khalid and several other tanks should not be going against these type of vehicles. One reason you don't even get a chance top play a game because the enemy see's you first because their vehicles are advanced and use Thermals. I can understand the Br but seems like there is a two rank system going on. It's getting to the point I'll just give up and quit, because what's the point if you're not on the same playing field as the rest. And why keep grinding if all you are going to do when you get uptier that you'll have vehicle in the same ranking that shouldn't be there.

Jeez, that's at least partially on you. Don't buy premiums before you test them, or understand their dynamic in their respective BR range. Hope that was a teaching experience. 

Otherwise, I do agree with you. Many vehicles in War Thunder and IRL are old vehicles with some improvements that necessitate a high BR, and they just universally suck because their hard stats are bad due to their age.

I think that in the same way there are APDS shells in low BRs, Gaijin should put vehicles even with some modern improvements, at BRs where they will be actually balanced.

[SchattenoVa 2]

The Chinese F-5A should be 10.7, BR compression or not, having a flare-equipped plane in 10.7 should be good design for a tech tree. As there is no flare-eqiupped sub-11.0 plane to grind tier 7 with in the Chinese tech tree.

All of the German strike aircrafts in the high tiers are over-tiered:
- MiG-23BN should be 9.3 (because Ground RB BR) if not 9.0, the airframe and engine alone in the world of premium all-aspect isn't going to carry a flareless plane that can only fight with guns and rockets.
- Su-22UM3K should be 10.7, got its R-60MK taken away but not a BR reduction, 6 rear-aspects should not be the reason why the plane is pitted against F-16A and MiG-29. The

- All Tornadoes in general should be 11.0 (because Ground RB BR) for Air RB since the Tornado IDS Marineflieger is fine at 10.7.

Edited March 31, 2023 by SchattenoVa

[Andychumbo289248 3]

OK, I am getting tired of the constant uptiering/BR-ing within the game. With gaijin being some of the worst Devs known to the gaming industry, i expect this to fall on death ears. But with the economy the way it is, and the cheater problem within the game, WHY THE HELL do gaijin not give us the option to ensure we do not get up tiered. 6 games in a row with Sweden (whom i am currently grinding) i have been up tiered from 7.3 to 7.7/8.3. Never 7.3 or lower, it is always a bloody uptier/BR. I for one am sick of this nonsense, i will be more than happy to wait a little longer for a game rather than get screwed over by gaijins fraudulent activities with this dam game. Gaijin need to open the pretty wrapper they have developed and actually make this game taste good. Its a complete farce! Rant over.

[Wolfen757 15]

On 04/04/2023 at 09:22, Andychumbo289248 said:

OK, I am getting tired of the constant uptiering/BR-ing within the game. With gaijin being some of the worst Devs known to the gaming industry, i expect this to fall on death ears. But with the economy the way it is, and the cheater problem within the game, WHY THE HELL do gaijin not give us the option to ensure we do not get up tiered. 6 games in a row with Sweden (whom i am currently grinding) i have been up tiered from 7.3 to 7.7/8.3. Never 7.3 or lower, it is always a bloody uptier/BR. I for one am sick of this nonsense, i will be more than happy to wait a little longer for a game rather than get screwed over by gaijins fraudulent activities with this dam game. Gaijin need to open the pretty wrapper they have developed and actually make this game taste good. Its a complete farce! Rant over.

I'm uptiered almost every single battle I play - more often than not a full BR.

But I never experience the opposite.  Can't recall the last time I was a full BR up on an enemies best tank. (or even two notches like 4.7 vs 4.0)

What's the trick to get that?  Players are getting it - at my expense.  I'd love to know how it's done.

[Real K Soze@live 407]

8 hours ago, Wolfen757 said:

I'm uptiered almost every single battle I play - more often than not a full BR.

But I never experience the opposite.  Can't recall the last time I was a full BR up on an enemies best tank. (or even two notches like 4.7 vs 4.0)

What's the trick to get that?  Players are getting it - at my expense.  I'd love to know how it's done.

 

On 04/04/2023 at 15:22, Andychumbo289248 said:

OK, I am getting tired of the constant uptiering/BR-ing within the game

 

 

Imho the reasons for frequent full uptiers are obvious:

 

At certain BRs you get to very popular premium vehicles, so just due to the large amount of their players - bundled at some specific nations - you have from a statistical aspect a much higher probability for a full uptier. Certain additional factors like BP challenges even increase those effects

 

An example:

If you fly a non US/GB aircraft at 5.0 - u get currently 75% full uptiers due to the Ju 288 spam at 6.0. So just very passionate or plain stupid players are willing to fight total superior and very popular 6.0 us premiums like the F2Gs in a 5.0 German or Italian fighters - in a clear number disadvantage as you have mostly 4 Ju288s with you in 7vs7 matches. 

On the other hand i see 25% full downtiers in the same Italian tech tree P-47 at BR 5.0 due to the recent BP challenge for the Italian 4.0 109F-4. And 4.0 is currently flooded with the also extremely undertiered XP-50 and Wyvern premium planes at BR 4.0.

 

It is practically impossible to get out of this uptier xxx if you fly a tech tree plane at the wrong BR for the wrong nation.

 

Imho this logic applies to all other modes (Ground or Naval) too.

 

So if your aim is to avoid frequent full uptiers; 

 

Buy a popular premium vehicle or choose a tech tree vehicle at exact the same BR of popular premium vehicles and play for exact those nations. I do not wear a tin foil hat, but i would not be surprised if premiums would have had some special "reasons" leading to higher full downtier chances, from a certain point of view this would make sense in a f2p game. But this is just a weird theory....

 

But i would see the whole uptier issue also from a positive side. As long you are good and are a real master of your vehicle (best with maxed our crew and earned ace status) and you are therefore able to compensate pure performance or just technological superiority of your enemies with experience or superior tactics, you will find out that the popularity of those vehicles is also their major weakness. They attract a hell of new and or inexperienced players - and allow you to beat them frequently quite easy.

 

Of course this does not work against good players playing in very good/op/undertiered premium vehicles, but usually really good and passionate players are looking for challenges and do not use premiums at all (outside events). They mainly prefer good and mostly undertiered tech tree vehicles able to play them to their strengths and are also able to compensate weaknesses. And they play for fun and not for statistics...

 

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

On 31/03/2023 at 10:42, Zucc_Boi said:

Jeez, that's at least partially on you. Don't buy premiums before you test them, or understand their dynamic in their respective BR range. Hope that was a teaching experience. 

Otherwise, I do agree with you. Many vehicles in War Thunder and IRL are old vehicles with some improvements that necessitate a high BR, and they just universally suck because their hard stats are bad due to their age.

I think that in the same way there are APDS shells in low BRs, Gaijin should put vehicles even with some modern improvements, at BRs where they will be actually balanced.

Who said anything about premium vehicles? Next time read the statement! This is about the research ranking! These are the vehicles you grind for! If you are just buying premium tanks to play that's on you! The rest of us are actually grinding for our tanks and the research ranking should be changed. Don't put a T-62 that has no Thermal Sights in the same ranking as a T-72 TURMS etc.! Br has nothing to do with it either it's the darn research ranking that is at issue. Wish people would read before commenting!

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

On 31/03/2023 at 07:35, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

Anyone can you tell me what is the point in putting in the Research Ranking vehicles with Thermal Sights and NVD against vehicles that do not? My Chieftains and Khalid and several other tanks should not be going against these type of vehicles. One reason you don't even get a chance top play a game because the enemy see's you first because their vehicles are advanced and use Thermals. I can understand the Br but seems like there is a two rank system going on. It's getting to the point I'll just give up and quit, because what's the point if you're not on the same playing field as the rest. And why keep grinding if all you are going to do when you get uptier that you'll have vehicle in the same ranking that shouldn't be there.

Going to another game I guess! Hopefully Gaijin will listen and fix the research ranking, can't even play my T-55 or T-62 because they are ranked in the research tree with a T-72 TURMS or or other vehicles that are equipped with Thermal Sights! What's the point in grinding if you are going to have to be put in a research ranking with vehicles that are considered modern. Br is not the issue it is the research ranking! Ya'll have fun, I'll spend money and time elsewhere!

Edited April 7, 2023 by NeroBellumDCLXVI
mispelled word

[Golden_Tomcat 299]

Your Russian BIAS ruins the whole Game. Last 20 TopTier Games Ive played RU won

[_RemiliaScarlet__ 355]

27 minutes ago, Golden_Tomcat said:

Your Russian BIAS ruins the whole Game. Last 20 TopTier Games Ive played RU won

In lower tiers, the game is still playable and competitive for all nations, but in High tier it's gotten to the point where I will look at the team composition to see if I'm up against Russia, and if I am I don't even bother spawning in, the only thing that's remotely close to Russia in lineup strength at high tiers is Sweden, which is just a copy paste Germany (for mbts) except better in every way.

Edited April 8, 2023 by _Happy_Chaos_
Spelling

[DouggieMacArthur 50]

Are we ever gonna see su-11s moved up to where they belong? The only reason they don't sweep matches is because 90% of the players in them force headons with their garbage velocity 37mms.

 

I'd also like the XP-50 moved up, becuase the moment I join a match in that thing I get consumed by brainrot and still often eke out a kill or two by playing like an idiot.

Edited April 8, 2023 by DouggieMacArthur

[Zucc_Boi 657]

9 hours ago, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

Who said anything about premium vehicles? Next time read the statement! This is about the research ranking! These are the vehicles you grind for! If you are just buying premium tanks to play that's on you! The rest of us are actually grinding for our tanks and the research ranking should be changed. Don't put a T-62 that has no Thermal Sights in the same ranking as a T-72 TURMS etc.! Br has nothing to do with it either it's the darn research ranking that is at issue. Wish people would read before commenting!

Oh ok thought you said you were using premiums because I couldn't find a non-premium khaled.

[MastuhWaffles 162]

Can we see the GR.7 go back to 11.3?

 

It is so absurd how gaijin thinks this jet is 11.7, it should not be balanced off ground.

[hiramu 0]

The difference in winrate after gaijin said he needed S1 is remarkable. S1 was added at a time when the Soviet Union's win rate was about 10% lower than the other two nations, speaking of the three most popular nations. gaijin said, "It's an advanced SPAAG, but the Soviet Union needs it." What if a month has passed since then? The Soviet Union's win rate is about 20% higher than the other two nations. Obviously, the bias has increased, and I feel that the addition of this S1 is a failure. Similar vehicles to other nations should have been implemented at the same time.

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

9 hours ago, Zucc_Boi said:

Oh ok thought you said you were using premiums because I couldn't find a non-premium khaled.

I was just using the Khalid as an example which the Khalid is basically a Chieftain anyway. But, seriously once is the point of grinding when a vehicle you have worked so hard to get to is in the research rank as a vehicle that is equipped with Thermal Sights or NVD system and the vehicle you have has none of that. Seems like Gaijin is cheating the players by doing that and the researchable vehicles their ranking should be changed according to the era they were produced. How many have you players have ever seen a MAUS being in the same rank as a Leo1 or Jagdtiger. I never saw a Leo1 in WW2 did any of ya'll? Or how a Kanonenjagdpanzer 105 comes before a Ferinand or Jagdtiger in the research?