[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

7 minutes ago, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

I was just using the Khalid as an example which the Khalid is basically a Chieftain anyway. But, seriously once is the point of grinding when a vehicle you have worked so hard to get to is in the research rank as a vehicle that is equipped with Thermal Sights or NVD system and the vehicle you have has none of that. Seems like Gaijin is cheating the players by doing that and the researchable vehicles their ranking should be changed according to the era they were produced. How many have you players have ever seen a MAUS being in the same rank as a Leo1 or Jagdtiger. I never saw a Leo1 in WW2 did any of ya'll? Or how a Kanonenjagdpanzer 105 comes before a Ferinand or Jagdtiger in the research?

 

Rank is completely irrelevant, ultimately it's a progression check to stop something like 1 low rank premium grinding the entire tree efficiently or to stop players just grinding 1 tree line as fast as possible

 

a T-55A or T-62 cannot encounter a T-72AV TURMS in standard gameplay as it's more than +1.0 BR higher (8.3 vs 9.7)

Edited April 8, 2023 by llSolitairell@psn

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

5 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

Rank is completely irrelevant, ultimately it's a progression check to stop something like 1 low rank premium grinding the entire tree efficiently or to stop players just grinding 1 tree line as fast as possible

 

a T-55A or T-62 cannot encounter a T-72AV TURMS in standard gameplay as it's more than +1.0 BR higher (8.3 vs 9.7)

Tell that to Gaijin then! My T-55 and T-62 are always going against T-72 TURMS or T-80's and that is in standard gameplay! When my Br is at 8.3 and I'm going against 10's or 11's there's issues with this whole matchmaker bs! But like I said it's not the Br that is at issue it is the research ranking but, yea, Br needs to be fixed too!

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

7 minutes ago, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

Tell that to Gaijin then! My T-55 and T-62 are always going against T-72 TURMS or T-80's and that is in standard gameplay! When my Br is at 8.3 and I'm going against 10's or 11's there's issues with this whole matchmaker bs! But like I said it's not the Br that is at issue it is the research ranking but, yea, Br needs to be fixed too!

 

Can you screenshot your lineup?

 

I know AB has some things where you can see +1.3 but you should not be seeing T-80s at all

[Zucc_Boi 657]

6 hours ago, NeroBellumDCLXVI said:

I was just using the Khalid as an example which the Khalid is basically a Chieftain anyway. But, seriously once is the point of grinding when a vehicle you have worked so hard to get to is in the research rank as a vehicle that is equipped with Thermal Sights or NVD system and the vehicle you have has none of that. Seems like Gaijin is cheating the players by doing that and the researchable vehicles their ranking should be changed according to the era they were produced. How many have you players have ever seen a MAUS being in the same rank as a Leo1 or Jagdtiger. I never saw a Leo1 in WW2 did any of ya'll? Or how a Kanonenjagdpanzer 105 comes before a Ferinand or Jagdtiger in the research?

I'm an Israel main right now, so I guess what you described as pain was already trivial to me. Point noted.

[Wolfen757 15]

On 07/04/2023 at 09:08, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

 

 

Imho the reasons for frequent full uptiers are obvious:

 

At certain BRs you get to very popular premium vehicles, so just due to the large amount of their players - bundled at some specific nations - you have from a statistical aspect a much higher probability for a full uptier. Certain additional factors like BP challenges even increase those effects

 

An example:

If you fly a non US/GB aircraft at 5.0 - u get currently 75% full uptiers due to the Ju 288 spam at 6.0. So just very passionate or plain stupid players are willing to fight total superior and very popular 6.0 us premiums like the F2Gs in a 5.0 German or Italian fighters - in a clear number disadvantage as you have mostly 4 Ju288s with you in 7vs7 matches. 

On the other hand i see 25% full downtiers in the same Italian tech tree P-47 at BR 5.0 due to the recent BP challenge for the Italian 4.0 109F-4. And 4.0 is currently flooded with the also extremely undertiered XP-50 and Wyvern premium planes at BR 4.0.

 

It is practically impossible to get out of this uptier xxx if you fly a tech tree plane at the wrong BR for the wrong nation.

 

Imho this logic applies to all other modes (Ground or Naval) too.

 

So if your aim is to avoid frequent full uptiers; 

 

Buy a popular premium vehicle or choose a tech tree vehicle at exact the same BR of popular premium vehicles and play for exact those nations. I do not wear a tin foil hat, but i would not be surprised if premiums would have had some special "reasons" leading to higher full downtier chances, from a certain point of view this would make sense in a f2p game. But this is just a weird theory....

 

But i would see the whole uptier issue also from a positive side. As long you are good and are a real master of your vehicle (best with maxed our crew and earned ace status) and you are therefore able to compensate pure performance or just technological superiority of your enemies with experience or superior tactics, you will find out that the popularity of those vehicles is also their major weakness. They attract a hell of new and or inexperienced players - and allow you to beat them frequently quite easy.

 

Of course this does not work against good players playing in very good/op/undertiered premium vehicles, but usually really good and passionate players are looking for challenges and do not use premiums at all (outside events). They mainly prefer good and mostly undertiered tech tree vehicles able to play them to their strengths and are also able to compensate weaknesses. And they play for fun and not for statistics...

 

Guess I'm hosed because I'm not gonna buy premium vehicles. I'm an average player and I do fine in the battles where I'm not handicapped by BR.

 

The game is messed up if you need to follow some complex formula of country research tree and specific BR.  I grind for vehicles - so it sounds like I can't avoid being disadvantaged in most of the battles I play.  That's just dumb - and - will also lead to new players just giving up.  Have experienced things like this in similar games and they are going downhill because of lack of new players sticking around.

 

 

[Real K Soze@live 407]

4 hours ago, Wolfen757 said:

Guess I'm hosed because I'm not gonna buy premium vehicles. I'm an average player and I do fine in the battles where I'm not handicapped by BR.

 

The game is messed up if you need to follow some complex formula of country research tree and specific BR.  I grind for vehicles - so it sounds like I can't avoid being disadvantaged in most of the battles I play.  That's just dumb - and - will also lead to new players just giving up.  Have experienced things like this in similar games and they are going downhill because of lack of new players sticking around.

 

I also deny to spend any money into this game. Not because i do not have the money, for me it is a question of your overall motivation to play the game in general. So imho i share the view of some other players, that wt is not only p2w, it is at certain points also a p2play game.

 

I would be willing to pay a lot of money if the game would increase his approach from being realistic in very small areas to implement actual realism (aiming, g-forces, unbiased flight models,etc.) or historical accuracy, but not for a single vehicle with the current limitations gaijin introduced in order to make this game playable for masses. Despite these limitations i stick to wt because i see no real alternative.

 

Imho a player without being productive for the game (by buying premium vehices/time) has from a holistic / investor point of view just one purpose to exist: Being a target for premium customers and/or to fill lobbies. Everything else makes from a pure economic perspective no real sense for gaijin. I mean this is no charity game allowing people to play a complex war game for free, this is a business. Despite i do not like this conclusion due to various reasons, it is the basic concept of any f2p game. So i have to live with it, and as long as i am able to play and have fun even with this conclusion, i accept this.

 

Ofc i bought premium planes on my old account, too. Mainly as i always like them (190 D-13) or the were just pure fun to fly (Ju288 3 years ago) and some others. But i was forced by ms to create a new ms account (after having 200d+ of game experience) to start new from square 1. Despite having researched Germany, Italy, Sweden, Japan and US to top tier - i never liked jet gameplay due to massive shift from pilot experience to mainly performance / technological aspects, so I iust looked up which were the planes i had played the most - and had the most fun. The various nerfs of some former favorites and/or BR changes excluded a hell of planes on my list. So now i play mainly 3-4 BR 3.7 to 5.0 tech tree planes (able to compete with premiums due to a mix of performance and experience) just for fun and i am again almost a top tier in 3 nations just by having fun - without having the slightest intention to use those planes.

 

If your goal is to research certain trees effectively - you need premium vehicles / premium time to get there - that is the core point of everything in this game. So issues with matchmaking and battle rating will always contain premium - direct or indirect. I mean the frustration i see (and feel myself very often the last 5-6 months) and still playing the game, is proving that gaijin is doing a great job to keep players enjoying the game (to various degrees) and to create the need to overcome this frustration / these obstacles by buying a premium vehicle.If i read that top tier is mostly dominated by certain nations with a high share of comparably expensive premium vehicles, the underlying business strategy is working - if you like it or not - it doesn't matter.

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Uncle J Wick@live

[MyPinkFlipFlops 13]

I, and most probably the rest of our beloved community would love to know what plans glorious Gaijin have on balancing out the Soviet nation.

 

Since the 'Sky Guardians' update, USSR is in massively advantageous position in basically every aspect, including the more competent part or playerbase which is playing mentioned nation just to gather easy wins.

 

Multiple massive APFSDS rounds passing thru ammo charges of unexploadable T-80s and T-72s which unaffected, happily shoot back.

Also, there is a problem in the Ground RB's air as 1 out of 3 most overpowered helicopters is available to every player from the get-go for a mere 50€ - the KA-50 which is, what a surprise, ALSO magically immune to enemy shots, whether it is a 7.62mm, 12.7 mm or 120mm. Those counter-rotary beatiues flood the battle in the first 2 minutes because obviously 1 kill assist provides enough Spawn Points for fully equipped helicopter.

 

So, what are the plans? Or maybe there are no plans from the developer?

Maybe if balancing the Communist nation is not possible just make both teams enjoy Soviets so the problem solves itself.

 

I sincerely hope this will not get blocked or removed after someone's feeling get hurt, as thats the most serious issue on toptier right before, lack of spalling, commander's thermals turning itself off and turret desync.

[Waelse 278]

Well we ll see how it's IRL soon. 

[richthofen122 1,455]

I am currently playing low tier, and it is completely awful, nigh unplayable even. There is this Pbil m/40, and it crushes everyone.

 

No fun, no chance of gameplay against this. Should be 2,3 or even 2.7!

 

Pbil m/40 - War Thunder Wiki

 

The Panzer II (DAK)-both variants should also be a whole BR higer at 2.3/2.7

 

Pz.II C (DAK) - War Thunder Wiki

 

[Gruminator 610]

At this point i just want the all battles to be completely mix since Gaijin can't/won't balance the nations probably 

[x1BRAVO9x 190]

I think Air may even be worse than ground.

 

American air is set up for failure, especially 9.7 -11.7

 

It is so bad I can't help but believe it is intentional.

 

Not only are individual planes set up for failure but teams with majority American planes aree set up for failure as well. There is no way it's not malicious and intentional.....

Edited April 10, 2023 by x1BRAVO9x

[Real K Soze@live 407]

On 10/04/2023 at 12:26, MyPinkFlipFlops said:

Communist nation

 

I am quite sure that they got rid of this ideology long time ago. There is a just a very small communist party in their parliament. Imho Christian-Orthodox Nation would be adequate if you would see the necessity to add political statements in a video game forum.

 

On 10/04/2023 at 12:26, MyPinkFlipFlops said:

Soviet nation.

 

The expression Sowjet is imho also not correct as in its actual meaning varies vastly from what most people think it means, so using it as a synonym for Russia might be comprehensible for most readers, but is actually wrong. Connecting this with "nation" would imply that there was no USSR, which (you can argue with or against their will) "united" various independent countries  with different ethnic majorities as a result of their revolution.

 

On 10/04/2023 at 12:26, MyPinkFlipFlops said:

USSR

 

Not longer existent.

 

Don't get me wrong - i do not want to be a jerk, but imho you refer mainly to top tier (so after 1991), so Russia or Russian federation would be precise and on the same high quality level as the game related content of your post.

 

On 10/04/2023 at 12:26, MyPinkFlipFlops said:

I sincerely hope this will not get blocked or removed after someone's feeling get hurt,

 

In these days everybody thinks that his personal feelings would have a higher value than Freedom of Speech. And a lot of people try to silence others arguing they are offended by their thoughts expressed via speech. In order to think you have to risk being offensive...  

I mean you hurt every time ordering a steak the feelings of vegans...and i do like steaks and idc...

 

Nice thread btw...i do not think that you violated any community or forum rules with your question. Post#2 and# 4 looks critical :-)

 

Have a good one!  

 

Edit:

 

Thread was merged, previous post #4 deleted as expected

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Uncle J Wick@live

[JIJ0K 82]

What do you mean ? war thunder is synonymous of balance 

 

 

[chomiake 769]

On 09/04/2023 at 23:45, Wolfen757 said:

Guess I'm hosed because I'm not gonna buy premium vehicles. I'm an average player and I do fine in the battles where I'm not handicapped by BR.

 

The game is messed up if you need to follow some complex formula of country research tree and specific BR.  I grind for vehicles - so it sounds like I can't avoid being disadvantaged in most of the battles I play.  That's just dumb - and - will also lead to new players just giving up.  Have experienced things like this in similar games and they are going downhill because of lack of new players sticking around.

 

 

It's no secret that the current matchmaker is utterly dysfunctional in this regards. Just try brs like 5.3 or 8.7 - you can go as far as 14-15 full uptiers in a row. Which is just plain ridiculous.

 

Personally, I've abandoned any hope of that ever being changed. Whenever I encounter full uptier I just 1 death quit. I will not be forced to play a match which is just plain unfair.

Edited April 11, 2023 by chomiake

[chomiake 769]

I'm currently trying to play 5.3 and I lost count of how many 6.3 matches in a row I was placed in. At least 10. Needless to say, the gameplay is absolutely terrible.
Is there some kind of a loser's queue like in overwatch or what?

Edited April 11, 2023 by chomiake

[Cpt_Bel_V 4,790]

No. Enjoy.

[AJ2toke 84]

Russian super tanks, super AA, super helicopters. What is this BS russian bias? Your tanks are not that good as they are in the game, your helicopters missles are not that good as you portray in the game, you put in a AA that can kill people as soon as they spawn! WTF IS THIS???? Making up for something!?? 

[AJ2toke 84]

So sick of this Russian Bias BS dude! You devs are full of it! Your tanks are not this good! Nothing you have in the game is this good! Just complete garbage and in game they are far superior to everything ! BS dude! Russian bias up everyones back side.

[Cpt_Bel_V 4,790]

25 minutes ago, AJ2toke said:

So sick of this Russian Bias BS dude! You devs are full of it! Your tanks are not this good! Nothing you have in the game is this good! Just complete garbage and in game they are far superior to everything ! BS dude! Russian bias up everyones back side.

--> balance made by players average results.

 

--> see how much newbs are playing Russian and US tanks ?

 

--> understand that the game balanced them "normally" through the choosed model of Balancing.

 

--> taking a break, having a breath and a Kitkat ^^"

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Cpt_Bel_V

[zweigelt83 4]

For everyone who have a victory wager: Just play Russia 11.3
You have the best tanks in the game, the best helicopters, the best fighter/groundstriker and the only not nerfed Toptier SPAA.
And you have reactive armor which works just as effectively against APDFS as it does against heat.
Do not play other nations it is just frustrating, if you want to win against russians, play 9.7 there are many premium Aces.

[Americancasmonki 128]

Russia in this game is just cope for how **** they are in real life it's sad at this point

[The-Bunkers-7@psn 220]

I CERTAINLY PUT IN QUESTION GAIJIN'S SUPPOSED NEUTRALITY 

Now comes BAN in the shadows 

[Americancasmonki 128]

True true

[Ion_Protogen 48]

On 10/04/2023 at 07:47, richthofen122 said:

No fun, no chance of gameplay against this. Should be 2,3 or even 2.7!

It has 42mm pen, it cant go past 2.0 or else it will be useless.

[AJ2toke 84]

9 hours ago, Cpt_Bel_V said:

--> balance made by players average results.

 

--> see how much newbs are playing Russian and US tanks ?

 

--> understand that the game balanced them "normally" through the choosed model of Balancing.

 

--> taking a break, having a breath and a Kitkat ^^"

 

Dude, they are far superior than every other nation againts them, their tanks have bs armor, their helicopter bs missles, their SPAA bs range. They out perfrom every singe other nation in every way. Its not balanced becouse of any other reason than the devs being russian so they want to show they are so ridiculously over powered when in reality they are not that good! 

19 hours ago, JIJ0K said:

What do you mean ? war thunder is synonymous of balance 

 

 

Exactly dude, its rediculouse the lies these developers create. Top tier is an absalute joke and incredibly fustrating playing anything other than russia. 

 

US tanks have layers upon layers of depleted uranium for armor and in this game their survivabity is terrible in game,  russian tanks that ingame are like super tanks dude, its rediculouse. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by AJ2toke