[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[CommunistBalls 2]

Vautour IIN Late

I like how the vautour IIN late is now 8.3 and it feels much nicer to fly. However it needs some refinement before it is truly balanced.

This aircraft turns worse than the vautour IIA despite having an all-flying tail. I have died repeatedly to AIM-9B (skill issue) because this plane is such a ship and cant turn at all. It really should be pulling far harder than 4G. Never while flying this thing have i gotten the G-overload warning while the vautour IIA is doing 7G pretty easily. Hell, this even bleeds speed a little more than the IIA, I am requesting that the flight model is updated to be more realistic and so that it isnt a free kill to every missile you launch at it.

The cannons also feel significantly worse than they should and most of the time you can hit something like a sabre with up to 5 of the 30mm rounds and he flies back to base and does just fine.

8.3 does make this plane much less of a struggle to fly, but it still isn't right with the flight model being absolutely miserable to the point it pulls worse than the same aircraft with weaker elevators.

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

Opinions excepted: Why does Gaijin put vehicles that are not equipped with NVD/Thermals against those that do? I'm playing a certain Br that should not put my tanks against these more improved vehicles. I want to know where is the fun on not being on a fair playing field? I know some will say skills matter but this isn't about skills it's about going against players who are using Thermals and Gaijin's matchmaker putting vehicles that are not equipped against these vehicles. this relates to ground battles and not air fyi.

[Gruminator 610]

How in the tarnation can there be 0.3 difference between the FlaRakPz and the 2s6 Tunguska???

Tungusta have guns, faster rockets, thermic and have all 8 missiles ready.

The FlaRakPz is just a joke compared with its slow **** reload, no NW and no way of defending itself.

Can anyone explain that to me in a slow and clam voice so i can understand it.

Because it screams of bias and/or incompetence to me.

 

[Commuwunism 0]

27 minutes ago, Gruminator said:

How in the tarnation can there be 0.3 difference between the FlaRakPz and the 2s6 Tunguska???

Tungusta have guns, faster rockets, thermic and have all 8 missiles ready.

The FlaRakPz is just a joke compared with its slow **** reload, no NW and no way of defending itself.

Can anyone explain that to me in a slow and clam voice so i can understand it.

Because it screams of bias and/or incompetence to me.

 

FlaRakPz actually has usable missiles unlike chungy

[NeroBellumDCLXVI 46]

I'm fed up! Playing my TAM and I'm put up against vehicles that have Thermal Imaging, might as well stop grinding if this Br/Research Ranking is not done away with or fixed! Gaijin's never going to listen and it's no wonder people leave the game! Some one tell me what's the point in grinding to a vehicle you want only to be in the research ranking with a vehicle far superior to yours? I have the XM something another no Thermal Sights but in the ranking with those that do! I have yet to last a minute because they see me and I'm relying on my binoculars to see them! I might as well quit! It's just like my Chieftains can't use them because they are going against Thermal Sights, I have two vehicles in the Br 9 level not one has Thermal Imaging no point in wasting time and money if I can't enjoy the game! Ground Battles fyi

Edited April 19, 2023 by NeroBellumDCLXVI
mispelled word

[AJ2toke 84]

Wtf is the pansir? Seriosly dude. It is shooting missles at you from 15km away! They dont even render in yet and they are shooting at you! its ridiculouse! Pansir ruined Top tier cas, its a joke.

[SusComySpy 6]

On US server, the players are generally respectful & friendly. ...but on foreign servers it's like flying into really bad, extremely unpredictable neigborhood.

You never know whats gonna happen.

Everyone flies around w/ huge chip on their shoulder. No consideration for anyone around them whatsoever. Constantly doing the most outrageous & inconsiderate things imaginable. 

 

On top of that, if they think they're gonna lose a match, they ALL leave. Even if the match has lasted only three mins. They'll die once & just ditch.

Leaving 2-3 of us to get chased around by 12 or so enemies for rest of the match. That is some BS behaviour.

 

I've been playing WT a few yrs now & I understand that everyone can play the game the way they want to, but the way players are acting on those servers is absolutely insane.

 

I'm certainly not gonna (play) w/ people who act that way. I have better things to do.

[NIBBABYTE 1]

idk what the balancing team have in mind, but british top tier jet are mostly all too high br. especially the gr7. like why would a gen 2 aircraft be fighting gen4 fighters?? and using aim9-L vs Aim-54. i don't think the win-rate is high on that aircraft. i think 10.7-11.3 would be a better choice. considered chaffs do little to nothing in warthunder.
And the phantom fgr2 is also inferior compared to other F4s. This aircraft just takes too much skill and luck to be viable in 11.3. it certainly accelerates fast. But it's just wayyy too heavy for any acceptable maneuver to get a chance to fight against Mirages, Mig23s, other F4s and J35s.

thats just my opinion for now. Prove me wrong(except skill issue, cause i know).

Edited April 19, 2023 by NIBBABYTE

[FullAfterburner 3]

 

[FullAfterburner 3]

Code the game better

 

P=NP 37(n+n+n)=nnn for 0 < n < 10.

[AJ2toke 84]

Top tier ground is such BS dude, russian bias out the fn wazuu bro. All BVM do, hold w, win the game. they have frontal armor that you cannot pen, if you manage to hit the tiney weak poiunts from the front, the round doesnt even spall, so u only kill the driver and he still kills you in one shot becouse your tank does spall haha. its ridiculouse. its so BULL S&^#& Pantsir, 18km range, ka50 even dead can still get 8 atgms fired at you. its ridiculouse. Wtf gaijin get you game together!

THen you have the people who have no idea of what we are talking about that come into here and argue or have stupid reactions to post becouse they eather dont even play 11.7 or they only play russian. 5k hours 4 top tier nations here. Iv been here for years and Iv seen alot of trash balance but this is the new current one from the snail. Good job gaijin you greed machine $$$ Its so trash the current state of top tier. Its just ridiuclouse man. its incredibly fustrating playing 11.7 ground with the current state of russian bias. Gaijin shame on you! 

Edited April 20, 2023 by AJ2toke

[cortbowan@psn 225]

To be fair, the last evenings I had a couple of really good games at top tier with my Swedish lineup vs the Russians. 

 

The overwhelming issue really is that russian players use their overpowered tanks to play super aggressive, get taken out and then hop into their KA-50/KA-52.

It's not unusual to deal with 3-4 of the KA's at the same time. 

With the ITO it has become very, very difficult to take out helicopters. A single hit with a VT-1 does NOT take out the KA, it takes 2(!) hits for the "Target destroyed" message and even then they usually have 12s to fire at you. 

IF the KA sees your missile coming and manouvers wildly, then the VT-1 can't even follow the movement anymore. If the ITO had Roland 3 missiles, I'd switch immediately and trade range for a better manouveribility. 

At the moment the ADATS really is the best non-russian SPAA in top tier. 

[AJ2toke 84]

1 minute ago, cortbowan@psn said:

To be fair, the last evenings I had a couple of really good games at top tier with my Swedish lineup vs the Russians. 

 

The overwhelming issue really is that russian players use their overpowered tanks to play super aggressive, get taken out and then hop into their KA-50/KA-52.

It's not unusual to deal with 3-4 of the KA's at the same time. 

With the ITO it has become very, very difficult to take out helicopters. A single hit with a VT-1 does NOT take out the KA, it takes 2(!) hits for the "Target destroyed" message and even then they usually have 12s to fire at you. 

IF the KA sees your missile coming and manouvers wildly, then the VT-1 can't even follow the movement anymore. If the ITO had Roland 3 missiles, I'd switch immediately and trade range for a better manouveribility. 

At the moment the ADATS really is the best non-russian SPAA in top tier. 

You can have a run of some good games, that doesnt mean that Russia is incredibly OP and unbalanced as a whole in the current state. Iv had good games as well, but its far fewer than the amount of BS things that happen. You know how many times Nato Tanks die after shooting a BVM and it not dying becouse the files are purposly modified so their BVM SUPER TANK doesnt spall? Why do other tanks spall and this tank doesnt? Why does the SEP have side armor like the BVM but acts nothing like it. The SEP spalls like a shotgun fire work went off inside of it. Its so easy to one shot abrams in top tier its ridiculouse. WHy would we even have Tusk if it makes no diffrence. The BVM you shoot it in the same spot all other tanks get one shot and the BVM only gets a creman down and still can shot, RELOAD and shoot again. its absurd. Then you have them spawn in a ka50/52 with missles that can counter SPAA, can shoot planes down, act like complete UFO. Then you get the SPAA shooting 18km missles out of render Range. Its a always a landslide of russia wining. The community is speaking up about this, iv seen tons and tons of post. They funnel everyone to this thread becouse they dont listen to any of it. They are doing it becouse people are paying S*^&# Tons of money into Russia becouse they have the best Premuim line up in the game. Its all greed and someday they will pay. Karma will get them becouse they take advantage of all of us who played thousands of hours to reach top tier just to get SHAT on by their bs modified nation.

[cortbowan@psn 225]

Not saying you're wrong.

In fact, I can't disagree with a single point concerning the lineups, I just try to keep it more...constructive  

 

I certainly hope that Gaijin understands that the player base is unhappy with the complete lack of balance in top tier and acts to resolve that in the next update. 

 

[Toxindragon 10]

1 hour ago, cortbowan@psn said:

To be fair, the last evenings I had a couple of really good games at top tier with my Swedish lineup vs the Russians. 

 

The overwhelming issue really is that russian players use their overpowered tanks to play super aggressive, get taken out and then hop into their KA-50/KA-52.

It's not unusual to deal with 3-4 of the KA's at the same time. 

With the ITO it has become very, very difficult to take out helicopters. A single hit with a VT-1 does NOT take out the KA, it takes 2(!) hits for the "Target destroyed" message and even then they usually have 12s to fire at you. 

IF the KA sees your missile coming and manouvers wildly, then the VT-1 can't even follow the movement anymore. If the ITO had Roland 3 missiles, I'd switch immediately and trade range for a better manouveribility. 

At the moment the ADATS really is the best non-russian SPAA in top tier. 

I mean, the 122s are currently the best MBTs so it's not surprising you're doing well in them

[MagicalMethod 1,768]

1 hour ago, Toxindragon said:

I mean, the 122s are currently the best MBTs so it's not surprising you're doing well in them

Doesn't help. I've had multiple games where i basically held a point on my own against half the enemy team. And the rest of our team still got wiped out despite the fact there was 12 of them there against 6 enemies....

 

I love the 122s but i am loosing my sanity playing against top tier russia... it just doesnt end. You kill a single BVM another two pop around the corner. You kill those two another 4 T90s pop around the same corner. And by the end there's 7 dead tanks, 4 more T72s on their way, a ka-52 slinging vikhr after vikhr on you while a mig 27k is 7km above you laughing.

 

And the worst thing is you can't counter by taking planes or helis... because the moment you do it's pantsir time... 

Without the pantsir you could've atleast countered their air support. Now their tanks can run around with near impunity because they have cas that can fly around with near impunity because every single plane/hemelechomper you spawn get's take out the moment you spawn in it. And the best NATO Ground to Air missile has been nerfed to the point you might as well shoot arrows at the enemy plane.

 

 

What were they supposed to do ? summon Khorne ??

Edited April 20, 2023 by MagicalMethod

[Yansomi 79]

 

I have no clue of how accurate these stats are but it is showing Russia doing very well in top tier and USA is **** apparently.

https://wt.controlnet.space/#stacked-area

[SXTREME 1,501]

1 minute ago, Yansomi said:

I have no clue of how accurate these stats are but it is showing Russia doing very well in top tier and USA is **** apparently.

https://wt.controlnet.space/#stacked-area

 

Anecdotally I have both US and USSR top tier lineups and USSR is indeed doing significantly better for quite obvious reasons.

[Yansomi 79]

24 minutes ago, SXTREME said:

 

Anecdotally I have both US and USSR top tier lineups and USSR is indeed doing significantly better for quite obvious reasons.

I have top on some factions USA and USSR being two of them, but i think these stats are instressting, you can go back in time and se that Russia was not as good as now, but they where not bad, I thought gajin balanced according to stats, but the latest update made Russian lineups extremly strong, and it seems to has to do with Pantsir and not the BVM that everyone is talking about, I know they have BS damagemodel, but the addition of the pantsir combine with the nerf of some of the missile AA's on other nations has realy made the KA-50, 52, and MI-28 win games for Russia more than anything, they where already hard to kill with missile AA's, because they could shot down your missiles with theirs, and they had more of them so you would always lose if they knew what they where doing.

The only thing you could do to counter this was fly your missile in a way that their missiles does not intrecept yours, but with the change in controls, this is no longer possible, and with the pantsir wrecking the only other deffence against the helicopters, that is aircrafts, you can't do much about it anymore.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Yansomi

[cortbowan@psn 225]

Since this is the discussion topic about balancing...I thought I'd add something more, still relevant for higher tiers, but not quite top tier. 

 

Radar supported Gun SPAAs have been reported that the lead indicator is broken and that the thing jumps all around. 

It seems that this is not a bug.

 

Here are the pictures from the test drive when I took the new swedish Gun SPAA out:

 

 

If you now concentrate on the lead indicator and fire, you'll miss. 

 

I thought that this is a bug, because my Gepard doesn't have that issue. 

And this is the bug report I created:

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/XWpCYapabkzv 

 

So it seems that this is not a bug, but due to the implemented multipath propagation, as described on Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_propagation 

 

I understand that we want realism in battles, but this leads to a further imbalance between Ground units and Air units in Ground RB. 

 

The thought process at Gaijin really escapes me.

If Ground RB is a combined battles mode, then at least give the players who play ground for the sake of playing ground their own mode and we're done with it.

If that is not the way Gaijin wants to go, then give the Ground players the means to defend themselves and that means that we need accurate Gun SPAAs and Missile SPAAs that are useful...

 

This really annoys me.

 

[夏雨荷Official 11]

13 hours ago, Yansomi said:

 

I have no clue of how accurate these stats are but it is showing Russia doing very well in top tier and USA is **** apparently.

https://wt.controlnet.space/#stacked-area

Since April 14th, the statistics have been stopped, and all you see are the same data. Obviously, they no longer want us to see more imbalanced victory rates

[SirHitman47 164]

The changes made to silver lions in the last two patches needs to be reverted even with a 15% Lion booster and getting 2-3 kills with each tank i'm still losing Lions 

[MagicalMethod 1,768]

2 hours ago, L1AnDx_Yu said:

Since April 14th, the statistics have been stopped, and all you see are the same data. Obviously, they no longer want us to see more imbalanced victory rates

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that toptier is heavily slanted towards russia. All you need to do is play 5 games in NATO tanks and then another 5 in russian tanks. Chances are all 5 games in russian tanks will be wins no matter who you have on team.

[Xermaz 73]

1 hour ago, MagicalMethod said:

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that toptier is heavily slanted towards russia. All you need to do is play 5 games in NATO tanks and then another 5 in russian tanks. Chances are all 5 games in russian tanks will be wins no matter who you have on team.

i mean it's the only nation that can by-it-self facing other nation OR facing against it self, as MM the recent days

if that doesn't saying something i don't know what is.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Xermaz

[Edo_惊鸿游雪 4]

I have to discuss the QN506, because this car is not worthy of this treatment

First, the biggest problem is that stationary explosion and mobile explosion are two extremes. Stationary explosion can carry rockets, but it is very deadly to move. The most important rocket output is missing, and the speed of replenishing missiles is really slow and difficult. The 506 is obviously not a defensive maneuver, so it can only be supplemented by rockets. Secondly, the machine gun is not good, and the firing rate is not fast. In fact, the same kind of steel needle may take you away from the mbt with fast reaction before playing the opposite side. Most sudden encounters will not be timely countermeasures, and QN506 rocket should have the ability of mobile launching, which can be seen in the propaganda video

Second, it can't guide the missile manually, the missile is almost useless in melee combat, or the long-range aftereffect is impressive, and the vehicle should have mobile launch ability in reality, it should be able to switch the guidance mode like Doyle! Besides, fixed wing is becoming more common than helicopter now. Missiles also need to catch enemies, but lack radar guidance, it is very short of timely detection ability. Therefore, manual guidance and rapid catch enemies are very short now, and the latter can only rely on their own technology and vision to slowly fight, the weight and maintenance cost of this vehicle should not be like this

Third, there are bugs in the long mirror. Many revenue means of 506 are detection and selling by the long mirror, but now the main revenue means of detection after the bug is no longer used, which is a headache.

Fourthly, the turret is very fragile and easy to break, and I think the probability of the QN506 dying is too high, which affects the gameplay of the vehicle too much

The rocket and missile of this vehicle should have backup ammunition, the actual firepower is not high, and the rocket of QN506 should not be in the same category as the aircraft gun replenishment in the war zone, we believe that the aircraft gun, rocket, missile should be separately replenishment, do not interfere with each other, the patrol missile has not been given, so this vehicle can try everything. But everything is a failure, the body is also a pity, only 59 chassis, because the actual use of fire tank refit, maintenance costs should not be so expensive, but should be the same as the bmp2m maintenance costs