[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Yansomi 79]

38 minutes ago, Edo_惊鸿游雪 said:

I have to discuss the QN506, because this car is not worthy of this treatment

First, the biggest problem is that stationary explosion and mobile explosion are two extremes. Stationary explosion can carry rockets, but it is very deadly to move. The most important rocket output is missing, and the speed of replenishing missiles is really slow and difficult. The 506 is obviously not a defensive maneuver, so it can only be supplemented by rockets. Secondly, the machine gun is not good, and the firing rate is not fast. In fact, the same kind of steel needle may take you away from the mbt with fast reaction before playing the opposite side. Most sudden encounters will not be timely countermeasures, and QN506 rocket should have the ability of mobile launching, which can be seen in the propaganda video

Second, it can't guide the missile manually, the missile is almost useless in melee combat, or the long-range aftereffect is impressive, and the vehicle should have mobile launch ability in reality, it should be able to switch the guidance mode like Doyle! Besides, fixed wing is becoming more common than helicopter now. Missiles also need to catch enemies, but lack radar guidance, it is very short of timely detection ability. Therefore, manual guidance and rapid catch enemies are very short now, and the latter can only rely on their own technology and vision to slowly fight, the weight and maintenance cost of this vehicle should not be like this

Third, there are bugs in the long mirror. Many revenue means of 506 are detection and selling by the long mirror, but now the main revenue means of detection after the bug is no longer used, which is a headache.

Fourthly, the turret is very fragile and easy to break, and I think the probability of the QN506 dying is too high, which affects the gameplay of the vehicle too much

The rocket and missile of this vehicle should have backup ammunition, the actual firepower is not high, and the rocket of QN506 should not be in the same category as the aircraft gun replenishment in the war zone, we believe that the aircraft gun, rocket, missile should be separately replenishment, do not interfere with each other, the patrol missile has not been given, so this vehicle can try everything. But everything is a failure, the body is also a pity, only 59 chassis, because the actual use of fire tank refit, maintenance costs should not be so expensive, but should be the same as the bmp2m maintenance costs

A lot have already said that this vehicle was gonna be mediocre at best, also should mabye not use propaganda vidoes as refrence, I meen the ZTZ99's in propaganda vidoes suggests that it has a vobly bad stabilizer, but we can't realy make much out from it, and putting it in the game would ruin its balance, QN506 is proberbly gonna be going down in BR if ppl preform extremly bad in it. 

[MaxWelson 0]

On 18/04/2023 at 20:27, Gruminator said:

How in the tarnation can there be 0.3 difference between the FlaRakPz and the 2s6 Tunguska???

Tungusta have guns, faster rockets, thermic and have all 8 missiles ready.

The FlaRakPz is just a joke compared with its slow **** reload, no NW and no way of defending itself.

Can anyone explain that to me in a slow and clam voice so i can understand it.

Because it screams of bias and/or incompetence to me.

 

tunguska has been nerfed now and its a big one too the missiles can only hit still like helis or drones if not manuerviring, and some jets can get killed but only if they are coming straight at you

[PlumleyBT 2,980]

26 minutes ago, MaxWelson said:

tunguska has been nerfed now and its a big one too the missiles can only hit still like helis or drones if not manuerviring, and some jets can get killed but only if they are coming straight at you

And? The OTOMATIC is 11.3 and is even less capable to hit fast moving targets and maneuvering helis.

[MagicalMethod 1,768]

2 hours ago, PlumleyBT said:

And? The OTOMATIC is 11.3 and is even less capable to hit fast moving targets and maneuvering helis.

But... but... 12 rounds of APFSDS !

[Richardguy 6]

The M1 Abrams at 10.3 makes no sense. The M1IP and M1A1 are both at 10.7 with better turret armor, better gun performance by a considerable margin.

[Gruminator 610]

16 hours ago, MaxWelson said:

tunguska has been nerfed now and its a big one too the missiles can only hit still like helis or drones if not manuerviring, and some jets can get killed but only if they are coming straight at you

and the Flakblabla have 2 shot before a reload, slow missiles (575 m/s vs tunguskas 910 m/s), no thermal, so most planes and helis can be hard to see and no awesome gun for close air/ground defence.

so no bud, the tunguska is still way better.

[Mr_Dced 1]

The permanent uptiers make me lose the will to play the game. If it were a balance of up and downtiers it could be bearable but you get dragged up 9/10 games and its just not enjoyable. I´d happily wait a minute longer in queue just to have smaller brackets. 

[Toxindragon 10]

10 hours ago, Richardguy said:

The M1 Abrams at 10.3 makes no sense. The M1IP and M1A1 are both at 10.7 with better turret armor, better gun performance by a considerable margin.

The IPM1 and M1A1 are pretty undertiered rn, the M1 is fine at 10.3

[steve_45 5]

I bet people are fed up hearing people moan about "Russian Bias" at top tier... However it is a real issue at the moment and I feel I need to express my views on it. This appears to be the most appropriate place.
I'm usually quite a chill, just get on with it type of player. However over recent updates the balance and bias towards USSR/Russia at top tier is just no longer sustainable. I know! I know.... Skill Issue right??
Even playing as Russia isnt an enjoyable or satisfying experience anymore, as after the first wave the game is all but over, where is the challenge in that? Its just not enjoyable! Top tier is in the worst state it has been in int he 6/7 years I've been playing GRB. I've noticed lobby sizes are decreasing and wait times increasing now because players are just going to Lower BR's where the balance is better. Dont get me wrong, this has given me an excuse to go back and finally grind out Chinese and Japanese tree's. Top tier isnt the be all and end all of WT, but my interest still lies mainly with the modern generations of tanks.

I dont have any golden solution to rework or balance the current situation. Whether that be buffing the armor of other nations or nerfing the Russian forces to bring things back to even some form of equilibrium. Battles are never going to be perfectly balanced, but when you know before starting or even looking at the teams that a stomping is about to occur it just sucks the enjoyment out of playing.
The T80/72/90 ERA needs reworking to balance (BVM especially) and ammo racks should blow when hit. I get that Russian MBT's at one point were neglected and struggled, and I will attest that they were indeed very easy to kill. However the balance has gone WAY out the window now.

SPAA needs balancing so other nations even have a chance. Heli-spam is real, Its not uncommon to see 5-6+ KA's up after the first wave of spawns. I will often spawn AA for second or first spawn just to counter it, but the shear volume of vikhr's bearing down on you means your lifespan is extremely limited.

 

I'm sure my points have likely already been expressed in better ways by others before me. Things might/likely are already being worked on to address the imbalance at top tier. However, I just felt I need to add my 2 pence to the discussion. It just frustrates me that I cant just enjoy top tier play at the moment. I also question what gratification Russian mains get from playing top tier in its current state when there is no challenge from the opposing teams as the bail out after first death. Even when there was a slight Bias towards Russia I actually enjoyed the challenge. You knew you'd be up against the constant waves of T80's/T72's and KA-50's/52's, but a win was still very achievable. Thats no longer the case at the moment, a challenge is only a challenge is its achievable, otherwise you are just wasting your time. 

 

In the mean time I will continue to grind out the mid/high tiers of other nations until balance is restored or I just get fed up and move on to something else. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later as my interest in WT has been waning since the balance went to ****. With 5k+ hrs into the game and more £££ sank into it than I care to think about it would be a shame to pack in the game. However there just no point playing something thats no longer fun.

Anyway enough of my ranting. Back to the grind I guess...?

Edited April 23, 2023 by steve_45

[Untergangsmelder 549]

41 minutes ago, Gruminator said:

and the Flakblabla have 2 shot before a reload, slow missiles (575 m/s vs tunguskas 910 m/s), no thermal, so most planes and helis can be hard to see and no awesome gun for close air/ground defence.

so no bud, the tunguska is still way better.

 

reload time is unimportant. It is much more important to hide. There are so many places where you are virtually invisible to enemy vehicles. 14 km visual range is enough to turn off your radar. After 2 seconds of tracking you already know which plane is coming based on the speed and number of flares .

a little counting and calculating is really not difficult. Slower missles are good for countering evasive maneuvers. Also no disadvantage. The cannon of Tunguska tells everyone here I am! This is not really an advantage. You keep the airspace clear that is your primary task.

[Gruminator 610]

12 minutes ago, Untergangsmelder said:

 

reload time is unimportant. It is much more important to hide. There are so many places where you are virtually invisible to enemy vehicles. 14 km visual range is enough to turn off your radar. After 2 seconds of tracking you already know which plane is coming based on the speed and number of flares .

a little counting and calculating is really not difficult. Slower missles are good for countering evasive maneuvers. Also no disadvantage. The cannon of Tunguska tells everyone here I am! This is not really an advantage. You keep the airspace clear that is your primary task.

hahahahahaha!

Im sorry, but thats the biggest load of BS to cover over the fact that the tungguska is way better.

Just the fact you are telling me a dual 30 mm cannon is not an advantage tell me everything.

[Panzerpartisan 4]

I feel I am not the only one with this issue but, when playing the game solo or even with squad-mates the experience honestly is quite universal. The teams in War Thunder are very inconsistent. I have for a now while wondered why? Even saturation, salt and other things aside it genuinely feels like the enemy team will always have more competent players in most cases. I recall this one time where 90% of my team had less than 1 kill and 3 deaths whilst the enemy team had like 3 people with 5+ kills EACH. So what gives? Why aren't matches tightly fought like they SHOULD be, I've had matches where lot of players in squads, and the intentional ones are placed into a single match and those are fun! Even if I die, it feels like I died for a good reason instead to a TAM 2IP that held W into our spawn and still gets kills because his gun has more pen than my 7.7 vehicle can ever even dream of countering.

 

Through out all these experiences, it leads to me believe there is some sort of matchmaker. I mean there obviously is, but Gaijin does not communicate to us how the hell it works. For one you can easily spot a pattern in maps, team layouts and etc. But I also feel that there is a more hidden system that places players depending on their skill level, current squad and all that. SO why doesn't Gaijin tell us how it works? This topic is not discussed at all, and if it is it's done in the usual rhetoric of "my team sucks!" or "my team of (INSERT NATION) at (INSET BR) is awful!" so where the hell is the actually constructive feedback? I am willing to bet my left nut that 90% of the people here would enjoy their matches more if the teams were equally set and the matches were actually hard fought.

 

With this post, I wish to incite some sort of conversation between players. So please, let me know how you think the matchmaker works and maybe with some luck Gaijin would actually look at this post and open up about it!

[Richardguy 6]

6 hours ago, Toxindragon said:

The IPM1 and M1A1 are pretty undertiered rn, the M1 is fine at 10.3

So are we gonna ignore the fact that the M1 at 10.3 has half the turret armor and a round with 150mm less pen than either tank at 10.7?

[Real K Soze@live 407]

7 hours ago, Panzerpartisan said:

I am willing to bet my left nut that 90% of the people here would enjoy their matches more if the teams were equally set and the matches were actually hard fought.

 

With this post, I wish to incite some sort of conversation between players. So please, let me know how you think the matchmaker works and maybe with some luck Gaijin would actually look at this post and open up about it!

 

Despite playing Air RB only i share your thoughts regarding the match maker to a certain degree.

 

I see the same issue in team compositions as the major flaw is imho the unequal experience distribution within the teams. Basically my standard example is that the first 5 players had 20 days game experience in total - and first 5 pilots of the enemy team more than 200 days.

 

I mean the whole game is a competition of experience and such one-sided lobbies are leading to massive steamrolls in the fist 6-8 minutes and there is nothing you can do against it. And i do not talk about overall game experience or player level, i talk about specific experience in a certain game mode.

 

And - u find some very interesting observations regarding the mm here in this forum. Most of them were locked as in some were actual "tin foil hat" guys active, but more than often you find claims (based on excel sheets) that the mm changes even during the day and your selected servers. I mean i had yesterday an 11 games win streak playing 3.7 Italy after 9 losses in a row US 4.3. I do not share the conspiracy stuff (example: boosters increase full uptier risk) but sometimes i am more than wondering...

 

[Toxindragon 10]

3 hours ago, Richardguy said:

So are we gonna ignore the fact that the M1 at 10.3 has half the turret armor and a round with 150mm less pen than either tank at 10.7?

You completely missed my point. The M1A1 and IPM1 should not be 10.7 so there's no reason to compare them to the M1 at 10.3

Edited April 23, 2023 by Toxindragon

[Untergangsmelder 549]

10 hours ago, Gruminator said:

hahahahahaha!

Im sorry, but thats the biggest load of BS to cover over the fact that the tungguska is way better.

Just the fact you are telling me a dual 30 mm cannon is not an advantage tell me everything.

 

Go play your tunguska then. Iam sure the 30 mm is very usefull against 8 km Hellfires ..or laser guided bombs. If a tier II/III CAS player thinks, above 10.0 you attack like a Stuka or P47 then every flyspeck is op.

[Wolfen757 15]

13 hours ago, Mr_Dced said:

The permanent uptiers make me lose the will to play the game. If it were a balance of up and downtiers it could be bearable but you get dragged up 9/10 games and its just not enjoyable. I´d happily wait a minute longer in queue just to have smaller brackets. 

This is me ... 9-out-of-10 I'm uptiered, and many times it's a full BR.  It's ridiculous when my 2.3 Sunderland is getting shot down by a P63 A-5.

9 hours ago, Panzerpartisan said:

With this post, I wish to incite some sort of conversation between players. So please, let me know how you think the matchmaker works and maybe with some luck Gaijin would actually look at this post and open up about it!

Matchmaker is complete garbage.  It's just as bad, or even worse than some other similar games.  The uptiering happens all the time - like I have a flag or something attached to my account.

[fumiga_de_metal 1]

poderiam aumentar as bases alvo de bombardeio, são muito défices de ver em modo simulador, poderia ser algo maior e mais detalhado pra dar pra enxergar melhor 

they could increase the bombing target bases, they are very deficits to see in simulator mode, it could be something bigger and more detailed to give a better view

 

[Teemestari 88]

On 24/04/2023 at 02:42, Wolfen757 said:

 

Matchmaker is complete garbage.  It's just as bad, or even worse than some other similar games.  The uptiering happens all the time - like I have a flag or something attached to my account.

 

 

I may guess what you mean. Anything balanced or fair is like blasphemy for them.

[Real K Soze@live 407]

15 hours ago, Teemestari said:

I may guess what you mean. Anything balanced or fair is like blasphemy for them.

 

I am not sure if you are aware of the basic rules/goals for all f2p:

 

• Find a mix of success and frustration in order to keep players addicted
• Create imbalances on purpose in order to earn money as premium vehicles are usually suited to overcome some imbalances

 

In other words for wt: Encourage people to buy undertiered premiums to kill overtiered tech tree vehicles.

 

The mm, gameplay setup, team compositions, BR settings and much more are just there to support these goals.

 

I mean there is nothing wrong with this, as all f2p games work like this and they have to pay their bills too.

So striving for fair and balanced gameplay is honorable but it is imho simply a mission impossible in a f2p game.

 

 

[re4l_t4nquex@psn 30]

Move all those HEAT and missiles up on the tech tree please, using heavy tanks in some BRs is annoying because of all those modern ammunitions fliying everywhere. Armor means nothing against them.

[Sytryse 5]

There should be newcomer protection because I don't think lvl 6 players vs lvl 40-100 players in rank 1 games having fun. They ruin the fun and people don't like it if they lose multiple times in planes, tank and ships. 123k people online only barely 4k are in battles.

[SKurj 234]

On 23/04/2023 at 09:53, Panzerpartisan said:

I feel I am not the only one with this issue but, when playing the game solo or even with squad-mates the experience honestly is quite universal. The teams in War Thunder are very inconsistent. I have for a now while wondered why? Even saturation, salt and other things aside it genuinely feels like the enemy team will always have more competent players in most cases. I recall this one time where 90% of my team had less than 1 kill and 3 deaths whilst the enemy team had like 3 people with 5+ kills EACH. So what gives? Why aren't matches tightly fought like they SHOULD be, I've had matches where lot of players in squads, and the intentional ones are placed into a single match and those are fun! Even if I die, it feels like I died for a good reason instead to a TAM 2IP that held W into our spawn and still gets kills because his gun has more pen than my 7.7 vehicle can ever even dream of countering.

 

Through out all these experiences, it leads to me believe there is some sort of matchmaker. I mean there obviously is, but Gaijin does not communicate to us how the hell it works. For one you can easily spot a pattern in maps, team layouts and etc. But I also feel that there is a more hidden system that places players depending on their skill level, current squad and all that. SO why doesn't Gaijin tell us how it works? This topic is not discussed at all, and if it is it's done in the usual rhetoric of "my team sucks!" or "my team of (INSERT NATION) at (INSET BR) is awful!" so where the hell is the actually constructive feedback? I am willing to bet my left nut that 90% of the people here would enjoy their matches more if the teams were equally set and the matches were actually hard fought.

 

With this post, I wish to incite some sort of conversation between players. So please, let me know how you think the matchmaker works and maybe with some luck Gaijin would actually look at this post and open up about it!

 

how can the red be more competent in every match than the blues?

[L__Zorro______@psn 8]

Al final volvemos al asunto de siempre, DECOMPRESS BR.... El BR (sobre todo en AB/RB terrestre) está demasiado comprimido, demasiados vehículos metidos entre 1 y 11.7.... después de 10 años alguien en Gaijin debería plantear la cuestión de repartir BR sobre una escala de 15, manteniendo el BR+-1 para matchmaking, o reducir el matchmaking a +-0.7, pero esto último solo sería un apaño mientras siguen lanzando vehículos... Por ejemplo Algunos tanques franceses en 7.3 (arcade ).... Comparten BR (7.3) pero algunos son claramente superiores a otros, simplemente comparten BR porque están comprimidos... Origen de muchas quejas de matchmaking.

Edited May 2, 2023 by L__Zorro______@psn
Ortografía

[LyfHax420 45]

I just can't seem to understand who's infinite widsom was it to put the Type 90's at 11.0. Comparing them to T-80's and M1's. We all know that you don''t love Japan, but man, people are trying to enjoy your game here, do they really need to suffer this much? Armor is trash, not properly modeled, and still you insist on balancing with "statistics" because yes.