More unnecessary wishful thinking regarding the 99's reverse speed

[jet_17_49 411]

A somewhat obscure fact about the ZTZ99 is that Norinco briefly attempted (and apparently failed) to export it under the designation VT3, a name now often misattributed to the 59G. Don't know if this export variant was ever produced, but I wonder if it was/would've been equipped with some fancy transmission like the ESM500 in the manner the 90-II and VT-2 were.

 

I suppose putting a subpar but reliable and locally available transmission in your MBTs is a fair compromise for France not being able to single-handedly demobilize your entire tank fleet by cutting your supply of transmissions in the event of a conflict, but that threat doesn't really exist as far as export tanks are concerned, does it?

Spoiler

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by jet_17_49

[jet_17_49 411]

On this episode of my demented, insubstantial ramblings nobody asked for, it seems some users in the Chinese national subforum have somehow managed to dig up a publicly available research paper indicating that the 96s may have a reverse speed of up to -10kph. From what little I understand similar efforts have been made to fish for the 99s' transmission stats, but no luck on that front so far unfortunately.

 

Thoughts as a popcorn-eating spectator:

1. My position on what the 99's reverse speed might be (which constantly flip-flops like a metronome and depends entirely on the most recent post on the topic I've read on the Chinese subforum) has switched from "maybe the 99's designers were indeed forced to install a -4kph transmission in the 99 in consideration of technological and time constraints" back to my initial position of "this thing was made in the 90s, surely they could've managed to attain a reverse speed of at least -7kph"
2. While this development is undoubtedly a net positive for the Chinese ground tree I am somewhat concerned that it may lead to the 96s becoming superior to the 99s in game which IMO is pretty cursed
3. Would be nice if Gaijin could establish direct contact with Norinco so it's easier to obtain non-confidential, but scarce info the likes of this.

 

Also I wish a good life upon those doing the digging.

 

I read somewhere that the ESM500 remained part of the 90-II/Al-Khalid's powerpack even past 1989 and jumped to the conclusion that France had somehow been generous enough to supply ESM500s to China way into the 2000s despite Western sanctions. Nvm then.

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

27 minutes ago, jet_17_49 said:

On this episode of my demented, insubstantial ramblings nobody asked for, it seems some users in the Chinese national subforum have somehow managed to dig up a publicly available research paper indicating that the 96s may have a reverse speed of up to -10kph. From what little I understand similar efforts have been made to fish for the 99s' transmission stats, but no luck on that front so far unfortunately.

 

Thoughts as a popcorn-eating spectator:

1. My position on what the 99's reverse speed might be (which constantly flip-flops like a metronome and depends entirely on the most recent post on the topic I've read on the Chinese subforum) has switched from "maybe the 99's designers were indeed forced to install a -4kph transmission in the 99 in consideration of technological and time constraints" back to my initial position of "this thing was made in the 90s, surely they could've managed to attain a reverse speed of at least -7kph"
2. While this development is undoubtedly a net positive for the Chinese ground tree I am somewhat concerned that it may lead to the 96s becoming superior to the 99s in game which IMO is pretty cursed
3. Would be nice if Gaijin could establish contact Norinco so it's easier to obtain non-confidential, but scarce info like this.

 

Also I wish a good life upon those doing the digging.

 

I read somewhere that the ESM500 remained part of the 90-II/Al-Khalid's powerpack even past 1989 and jumped to the conclusion that France had somehow been generous enough to supply ESM500s to China way into the 2000s despite Western sanctions. Nvm then.

And that's the catch, as long as the players get the gear ratio or at least the gear teeth number for the transmission on ZTZ99s, it solves the problem once and for all (or putting one more coffin nail on 祝榆生). As far as doc88, Baidu Wenku and Taodou淘豆 search finds, there AREN'T ANY INDICATION other than a paper mentioning about simulations on ZTZ99 transmission (https://www.doc88.com/p-3157556683212.html); where the only thing available is the formula for calculating the gear ratio and a page where it has demonstrated how the simulation works.

Since the exact number is still classified (even till now), the only thing that can tell is that the gear ratio for ZTZ99s should different to any usual T-72s (at least at forward gears)

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

1 hour ago, MO_Blahajman said:

And that's the catch, as long as the players get the gear ratio or at least the gear teeth number for the transmission on ZTZ99s, it solves the problem once and for all (or putting one more coffin nail on 祝榆生). As far as doc88, Baidu Wenku and Taodou淘豆 search finds, there AREN'T ANY INDICATION other than a paper mentioning about simulations on ZTZ99 transmission (https://www.doc88.com/p-3157556683212.html); where the only thing available is the formula for calculating the gear ratio and a page where it has demonstrated how the simulation works.

Since the exact number is still classified (even till now), the only thing that can tell is that the gear ratio for ZTZ99s should different to any usual T-72s (at least at forward gears)

what here reads the reverse gear ratio of the ZTZ99?

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

2 minutes ago, NAYEONnaise said:

what here reads the reverse gear ratio of the ZTZ99?

And that's the problem: he didn't.
But all the 7 forward gears seems off from the current in game value

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

Just now, MO_Blahajman said:

And that's the problem: he didn't.
But all the 7 forward gears seems off from the current in game value

i see. if the reverse speed is actually T-72ish, based from this: 《铁甲精兵》-贾元友和99坦克_哔哩哔哩_bilibili, then the ZTZ99s should be faster than the T-72s. Gaijin, do you see that large difference in engine? and it sounds exactly like a T-72, which is disappointing, when it should not.

[jet_17_49 411]

3 hours ago, NAYEONnaise said:

what here reads the reverse gear ratio of the ZTZ99?

As mentioned above, none of them, but here are the forward gear ratios just for reference.

 

Also I just remembered that the 99-II briefly had a reverse speed of -6.3kph when it first appeared on the 2.3 1st dev server. Where did the -6.3kph figure come from, and did a certain data consultant have anything to do with it being nerfed to -4.8kph later?

Edited April 23, 2022 by jet_17_49
Removed assumption

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

14 minutes ago, NAYEONnaise said:

i see. if the reverse speed is actually T-72ish, based from this: 《铁甲精兵》-贾元友和99坦克_哔哩哔哩_bilibili, then the ZTZ99s should be faster than the T-72s. Gaijin, do you see that large difference in engine? and it sounds exactly like a T-72, which is disappointing, when it should not.

I have suggested (with Merzhi) to switch the engine sound to Hetzer's one (it sounds very similar to ZTZ99's engine); passed but god knows when would it be changed

[jet_17_49 411]

2 hours ago, MO_Blahajman said:

And that's the catch, as long as the players get the gear ratio or at least the gear teeth number for the transmission on ZTZ99s, it solves the problem once and for all (or putting one more coffin nail on 祝榆生). As far as doc88, Baidu Wenku and Taodou淘豆 search finds, there AREN'T ANY INDICATION other than a paper mentioning about simulations on ZTZ99 transmission (https://www.doc88.com/p-3157556683212.html); where the only thing available is the formula for calculating the gear ratio and a page where it has demonstrated how the simulation works.

Since the exact number is still classified (even till now), the only thing that can tell is that the gear ratio for ZTZ99s should different to any usual T-72s (at least at forward gears)

能不能把这对数据原封不动地交给开发组进行调查？这里现有的资料即使未必足以证明什么，但至少应该能让开发组知道游戏中99的传动数据存有疑点吧？

Actually, what if someone were to just throw this data at the devs as is? Even if isn't enough to get them to change anything, it should at least open them to the possibility that the 99's current stats are likely incorrect.

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

Just now, jet_17_49 said:

能不能把这对数据原封不动地交给开发组进行调查？这里现有的资料即使未必足以证明什么，但至少应该能让开发组知道游戏中99的传动数据存有疑点吧？

Actually, what if someone were to just throw this data at the devs as is? Even if isn't enough to get them to change anything, it should at least open them to the possibility that the 99's current stats are likely incorrect.

左边是T-72B的，右边是99一改的；前进挡比你的学位论文的重合度还要高跟T-72基本一致 Left:T-72B Right ZTZ99-II, they look very similar in gear ratio
这样将近复制黏贴嘛....就真的得再看一下了

[jet_17_49 411]

26 minutes ago, MO_Blahajman said:

左边是T-72B的，右边是99一改的；前进挡比你的学位论文的重合度还要高跟T-72基本一致 Left:T-72B Right ZTZ99-II, they look very similar in gear ratio
这样将近复制黏贴嘛....就真的得再看一下了

严重怀疑编这数据的人就只把T-72的传动数据搬了过来，把7档最高前进速度提高至65kph，然后就宣布完事走人了

Edited April 23, 2022 by jet_17_49

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

不过话说回来，我应该是找到99的传动系统的结构图了；现在只差传动比了（感谢兵器工业集团的《车辆与动力技术》期刊）

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

 

进度：
根据现有有关99式制动系统论文里面出现过的传动比，按照刘修骥公式，目前已经推出k6=1.33，k4=3.03；但是按照2档位：((1+k2)x(1+k4=3.03))/(k4=3.03)=k2 ——然而我方程算出来的K2居然是个负数

 

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

1 hour ago, jet_17_49 said:

严重怀疑编这数据的人就只把T-72的传动数据搬了过来，把7档最高前进速度提高至65kph，然后就宣布完事走人了

现在的进度让我很怀疑可能毛子已经给优化了.....如果按比例的沿用现在99已有的齿轮比跟我刚刚算完那两个推出的3挡传动比大概3.73的情况下， 那倒挡传动比可是-15 ，走路都比他快....

Edited April 23, 2022 by MO_Blahajman

[jet_17_49 411]

24 minutes ago, MO_Blahajman said:

现在的进度让我很怀疑可能毛子已经给优化了.....如果按比例的沿用现在99已有的齿轮比跟我刚刚算完那两个推出的3挡大概3.73的情况下， 那倒挡可是-15 ,....

-4.3kph，啊这?

1 hour ago, MO_Blahajman said:

 

进度：
根据现有有关99式制动系统论文里面出现过的传动比，按照刘修骥公式，目前已经推出k6=1.33，k4=3.03；但是按照2档位：((1+k2)x(1+k4=3.03))/(k4=3.03)=k2 ——然而我方程算出来的K2居然是个负数

R2档（确信）

Edited April 23, 2022 by jet_17_49

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

Update更新：

https://www.doc88.com/p-8971738709023.html A paragraph in a certain paper reads: gear ratio at k3=3.361,k4=2.683 车辆液力机械传动系统建模及动态特性仿真 裡面写了一段话：

Another paper that reads k6=1.33 综合之前说

With the formula by Liu Xiuji k8= -k3(1+k4) 按照刘修骥公式：-3.361（1+1.33）=-12.378 

So the gear ratio is indeed off to some extent 

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

And the final result translated as speed is:
 

Spoiler

-5.25kph/-3.26 mph, still sucks but a little bit faster

 

[jet_17_49 411]

???????

Edited May 5, 2022 by jet_17_49

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/51IlMBWqFLze
Screw it, I will do it anyway; see if you do want to change the gear ratio 

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

To those who read this after the report has been acknowledged:

↓The revised calculation done by the tech mods.
 

Quote

I asked my friend for calculation. Here is result.

G1 8.22
G2 4.292
G3 3.361
G4 2.684
G5 1.93
G6 1.476
G7 1

G6
(1+k4)/k4=1.476
k4==2.10084

G2
((1+k2)(1+k4))/k4=4.292
((1+k2)(1+2.10084))/2.10084=4.292
1.476(x+1)= 4.292
k2=1.90786

G3
((1+k2)(1+k4)k3)/(k3k4+k3-k2)= 3.361
((1+1.90786)(1+2.10084)k3)/(k3*2.10084+k3-1.90786)
k3= 4.56335

G8(R)
-k3*(1+k4)=?
-4.56355(1+2.10084)=-14.150838382
--------------------OR-------------------------
G1
((1+k2)(1+k3))/k3=8.22
((1+1.90786)(1+k3)/k3=8.22
k3=0.547399

G8(R)
-k3*(1+k4)=?
-0.547399(1+2.10084)=-1.69739671516

QED
G8= -14.150838382

Then R1 is -14.151 and it is higher than currently is(-13.0).
It could mean ZTZ99 reverse speed should be slower than current 4.8km/h.
Note : T-72 reverse gear ratio is -14.35.

 

Spoiler

So the reverse speed will be: 65/-14.15=4.591/4.6 (rounded-up)

So, ZTZ99 did got his death sentence from the only man who want it to be better- myself.

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by MO_Blahajman

[lmperator 77]

Just wait until CH-equipped tanks be added in game, they're much more comfortable in terms of their dynamics and points like neutral steering and reversing 

[tiger7742 260]

21 hours ago, MO_Blahajman said:

To those who read this after the report has been acknowledged:

↓The revised calculation done by the tech mods.
 

 

Reveal hidden contents

So the reverse speed will be: 65/-14.15=4.591/4.6 (rounded-up)

So, ZTZ99 did got his death sentence from the only man who want it to be better- myself.

 

Haha don't beat urself up on that, either way there is nothing wrong with pursuing historical accuracy. However I do have a feeling that it is satirical, if that's the case then just ignore my comment x)

Edited April 26, 2022 by tiger7742

[hienapunk 1,065]

Whenever I need my dose of drama I either go to the Chinese subforum or the turkish tech tree suggestion :/