Jump to content

Maps, Map design Feedback


Renamed82178
 Share

2 hours ago, Sir_Campalot said:

White Rock Fort on Arcade. Why would you give A to one side? A used to be a really interesting objective and could go for either side. I have no idea what Gaiijin are up to these days. I can only speculate that they have had a change in management who have no idea about playing the game.

 

AB talk:

 

Absolutely agree. Before 1.65 both sides had the same chance to cap either A, B or C. Now - one side has free A, the other gets C for free. Why? And it brings the horde towards the spawn. Why? Removed hillocks protecting spawns enabling spawn sniping. Why?

 

Before 1.65 balanced for AB, after ... meeh.

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As mentioned before, Abandoned Factory is not a bad map, but it's too small which leads to frequent spawncamping since you can reach the enemy spawn in under two minutes(maybe even faster in faster vehicles). But the brawl area is not bad because it has some corridors that allow for longer ranged shots and the terrain is mostly flat so you can drive around quickly on the corridors..

 

I personally think that the map with it's surrounding terrain has potentioal to be a nice map á la Poland that allows both for flanking/long range combat on the flat part aswell as close combat. People inside the factory have good cover to combat snipers on the flat hinterland who barely have any cover, but the ability to relocate fast, kind of like on Poland. If the map borders are only somewhat extended you could have a nice map that allows for different gameplay styles:

 

abandonedfactory.jpg

 

The dots are potential spawn locations with treelines that limit potential LoS across the map/from further away to prevent long range spawncamping for the most part, especailly at the beginning of matches. And the spawns are stil lrather close to the factory area so people who don't want to hang out in the open part can still move rather quickly into the factory. I don't know the exact size of the map since I c an't access the game atm but even with extended borders like it'd probybly smaller than RB Poland, or at least not bigger.

Edited by AtomicPope
  • Upvote 2
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Tupoun said:

 

AB talk:

 

Absolutely agree. Before 1.65 both sides had the same chance to cap either A, B or C. Now - one side has free A, the other gets C for free. Why? And it brings the horde towards the spawn. Why? Removed hillocks protecting spawns enabling spawn sniping. Why?

 

Before 1.65 balanced for AB, after ... meeh.

 

As was mentioned elsewhere, if in domination each team gets one cap for "free" because they are close to the spawn area, how is that different from conquest?

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 26.12.2016 at 10:31 PM, Hunternz said:

What is expected is constructive criticism that can be used for feedback , research , and easily navigated by staff who could use this thread to find such information.

 

Maybe the lack of popularity of tanks here (IMHO much better than "other game about tanks" is poor tutorial?

Lets say what new players tell about GF WT (why they abandoned this game) /copied from another topic/

  1. planes go down and kill tanks,
  2. I'm loosing my tanks more often from artillery strikes or bombs than hits by other tanks,
  3. when respawning I'm dying before back on tracks,
  4. tier I-II are dancing on grass as build from paper not from steel,

My comment:

(1) is comment about highly unbalanced game, when dominate teams uses planes massively (because they can)

  • there is no tutorial how and when use planes event on map (standing tanks at open fields because players use planes is very often spot),
  • there is no tutorial to show players why they should protect / attack ally bombers,

(2)(3) players don't know how to prevent themselves from bombs / artillery strikes:

  • there is no tutorial how to use artillery and planes at GF battles,
  • there is no tutorial how to prevent itself and ally team from artillery attack / attacking planes,

(4) players don't know another game mechanics:

  • there is no tutorial which show another gameplay with quite different rules (RB / SB), (no airplane events, rare kamikaze raids),

I know that a lot of people is playing AB mode, but maybe Gaijin should force RB / SB to show another type of gameplay?

And balance them with rewards according to AB...

 

More easy way for players call this game "s#it" and back to another game about tanks than learn RB playing or fly as a fighter when necessary.

Who knows, maybe Gaijin has right when saying that WT AB is too hard for some players...

 

* IMHO Gaijin lost their chance to surprise community with something "fresh" EC battles: up to 64 players with open maps including tanks at RB / SB mode. 

 

medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, PL_Andrev said:

(1) is comment about highly unbalanced game, when dominate teams uses planes massively (because they can)

  • there is no tutorial how and when use planes event on map (standing tanks at open fields because players use planes is very often spot),
  • there is no tutorial to show players why they should protect / attack ally bombers,

(2)(3) players don't know how to prevent themselves from bombs / artillery strikes:

  • there is no tutorial how to use artillery and planes at GF battles,
  • there is no tutorial how to prevent itself and ally team from artillery attack / attacking planes,

(4) players don't know another game mechanics:

  • there is no tutorial which show another gameplay with quite different rules (RB / SB), (no airplane events, rare kamikaze raids),

I know that a lot of people is playing AB mode, but maybe Gaijin should force RB / SB to show another type of gameplay?

And balance them with rewards according to AB...

 

More easy way for players call this game "s#it" and back to another game about tanks than learn RB playing or fly as a fighter when necessary.

Who knows, maybe Gaijin has right when saying that WT AB is too hard for some players...

 

* IMHO Gaijin lost their chance to surprise community with something "fresh" EC battles: up to 64 players with open maps including tanks at RB / SB mode. 

 

 

(1) Indeed, because what a team that is losing needs is even more bonuses for their opponents, so they really can't recover and make a comeback. And then there are complaints of players leaving a game early. Why bother continuing to play when there's no chance of recovery? Just to spend even more on repairs?

 

(2)(3) Short of moving away you can't protect yourself, and there are two problems with that: slow tanks often can't move away from bombs before they explode and moving might mean putting yourself in the line of fire of enemy tanks.

 

 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, PL_Andrev said:

My comment:

(1) is comment about highly unbalanced game, when dominate teams uses planes massively (because they can)

  • there is no tutorial how and when use planes event on map (standing tanks at open fields because players use planes is very often spot),
  • there is no tutorial to show players why they should protect / attack ally bombers,

Planes on Mixed RB should always start from airfield, never in air. 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dezzantibus said:

(2)(3) Short of moving away you can't protect yourself, and there are two problems with that: slow tanks often can't move away from bombs before they explode and moving might mean putting yourself in the line of fire of enemy tanks.

 

YOU know that - but again: I often see the people who left their tank at open field and using planes this same time.

When he is novice he is down, go back to tank... and tank is already destroyed.

Frustrating, huh? What does novice think? "This game is not for me"... and stop participate in plane events - to attack enemy bombers in example.

Next time when novice lost the tank by bombing what does he think? "This game is not for me"... and instead trying to play RB he uninstalls this game.

And he is right - respawn camping and plane events are not fun for losing team. If no fun... why play here?

 

Edited by PL_Andrev
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an arcade ground force player, I can't think of a better map than the new Sinai one. It is wide open, but still allows for flanking and hiding with its various rocks and hills.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you remember when I've posted that GF gameplay is poor, not only with maps but with gameplay features? 

Small maps and spawn camping are the weakest points for this game, unfortunately. See now why Ash River is one of the worst map ever (after last "spawn balance").

As long we have respawns with spawn camping and kamikaze strikes allowed GF never be success game - as planes in example.

 

pz2gEfl.png

medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I swear to God, the Korean map is the worst thing since the Novorossyjsk port map thingy. 

 

What is it with Gaijin's obsession with GIANT BOULDERS?

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Tanaj said:

I swear to God, the Korean map is the worst thing since the Novorossyjsk port map thingy. 

 

I was sure that is impossible to create map worse than Karelia... I was wrong.

Maybe Korea should be renamed to camper's heaven?

 

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Tanaj said:

I swear to God, the Korean map is the worst thing since the Novorossyjsk port map thingy. 

 

What is it with Gaijin's obsession with GIANT BOULDERS?

 

Yeah it's like they have a mandatory quota on giant rocks to put in per match.

 

The map could be actually decent as I said before if they removed most of the giant rocks and put forest patch in there. The details are cool, those korean style houses and the new plants, the general look actually made me think of the M.A.S.H. series, and the rice fields are distinct, but all those low poly rocks everywhere just look out of place there. Giant rocks are for WT what crates are for FPS games it seems. IMO the WT engine pulls off rolling hills and forests better than rough, jagged terrain.

 

I've had a bad string of matches right now, and one thing that I noticed about many CQC maps is that they make you feel powerless. On open maps like Kursk you have more control, you can constantly check for enemies all around you - if you fail to notice them or get shot over a long distance most of the time it's because you weren't observant enough, and because the other guy was just a good shot. But on close combat maps with rocks, houses, hills, debris everywhere, no matter what you do you can always get surprised by someone popping around a corner and offing you. It gives you the feeling that you never had a chance. Open, big maps feel more relaxing since you can spot enemies earlier, and plan ahead better.

Edited by AtomicPope
  • Upvote 5
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, AtomicPope said:

I've had a bad string of matches right now, and one thing that I noticed about many CQC maps is that they make you feel powerless. On open maps like Kursk you have more control, you can constantly check for enemies all around you - if you fail to notice them or get shot over a long distance most of the time it's because you weren't observant enough, and because the other guy was just a good shot. But on close combat maps with rocks, houses, hills, debris everywhere, no matter what you do you can always get surprised by someone popping around a corner and offing you. It gives you the feeling that you never had a chance. Open, big maps feel more relaxing since you can spot enemies earlier, and plan ahead better.

Yep. in those CQC maps you just go through corridors and ambush helpless people or being ambushed yourself and have no chance. there is really no matter, if you have good situational awareness or not. Thats what i really hate about those maps. I would ex0ect these maps from games like WOT but definitely not WT

  • Upvote 4
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, AtomicPope said:

I've had a bad string of matches right now, and one thing that I noticed about many CQC maps is that they make you feel powerless. On open maps like Kursk you have more control, you can constantly check for enemies all around you - if you fail to notice them or get shot over a long distance most of the time it's because you weren't observant enough, and because the other guy was just a good shot. But on close combat maps with rocks, houses, hills, debris everywhere, no matter what you do you can always get surprised by someone popping around a corner and offing you. It gives you the feeling that you never had a chance. Open, big maps feel more relaxing since you can spot enemies earlier, and plan ahead better.

 

I can definitely sympathize with that feeling. It's the same on city maps, but there it's at least understandable.

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the new maps are kind of ok i think, although i have seen korea only once yet but hell, why did you shrink the size of the regular RB maps once again?

now RB groundforces is even more of a glorified arcade+, well i guess now arcade++ but it is horrible.

 

what is the point of having one nations tanks being pretty good at long range but then rarely have such ranges on the maps?

 

at least give us back a proper sim mode for ground forces again and i will immediatly shut up about this but like it is now, i don't really feel a lot of fun and enjoyment anymore, or better phrased, even less then before the patch.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New map comparison to the best map for players majority: Sinai with 5 critierias (10 point to achive)

 

Procedure:

Spoiler

Size is calculated by enemy spotting in most popular AB mode:

  • enemy spawn is visible from ally spawn after few first seconds of ride (0),
  • capture are is visible from spawn and vice-versa (1),
  • spawn camping not possible from capture area (2),

Accessibility is calculated by number of structures which hide players on map:

  • highly tunneled map (0),
  • a lot of rocks / buildings (1),
  • rare rocks / buildings according to whole map (2),

Terrain is described by type of terrain used for map:

  • generally flat / lighty waved (2),
  • close-contact only by lot of structures (1),
  • big mountain or big valley on map of the one of capture point (0),

Sniping from air describes number of elements help hide tanks from planes:

  • open map (0),
  • forrest  as anti-air RB cover (1),
  • city streets (2),

General look describes how this GF maps matches to rest of map from air:

  • borders of GF region well-good spotted from air (0)
  • overloaded with GF details as ways, rocks etc according to rest of map (1)
  • rare artificials only (2)


Sinai Map: 8/10

spawn camping not possible from capture points: 2

rare rocks: 2

generally flat: 2
no special air cover: 0

sandy-desert region: 2

comments: a little too flatty for me, the big flat areas (north / south between points) should be lighthly waved,

Sandy winds build a real climate of desert.

 

Korea: 0/10

camping possible just after leaving spawn: 0

highly tunneled map: 0

big valley at spawn point: 0

no special air cover: 0

a lot of rice terraces overloaded rocks acc. to rest of map, another color of ground: 0

comments: camper's heaven,

Terraces looks really good but from air only we can see beauty of the details.

A nightmare map for non-camping players...

 

Abandoned factory: 6/10

spawn camping not possible from capture points: 2

overloaded with details (buildings, tanks, pipes): 1

cloase-contact fight due lot of details: 1

tanks good spottable from air : 0

looks.. beautiful at HQ: 2

comments: Gaijin adds rail tracks and rail stations to this map (not only at factory region). 

Some of track are going to the river or through trees and city buildings, but there are small bugs for me.

Good job Gaijin! 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Sinai Map: 8/10

spawn camping not possible from capture points: 2

 

Ahem, not quite. In "battle" mode, spawn camping is totally possible from capture points or their close proximity, particularly on the south side (but I'm referring to RB, layout may be different). 

medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 12/27/2016 at 8:55 AM, PL_Andrev said:

 

Really not. In this idea there is only one active capturing point:

dark - inactive spawns / light - just active spawn points / white - capturing area

bKkaN8x.png

 

When point is captured the forcing team should attack the next one, where the next one was a spawn for enemy tanks.

In this solution the "fast russian tanks" what you talking about met a medium / heavy tanks just spawned few second before at previous spawn / current capturing zone.

Please note that spawn points are in same distance to itself - not important which point is an active capturing area.

This idea may work with:

- join in progress feature, 

- AB mode (several tanks per player),

- WWM / long time battle offensives

 

This style of cap and spawn points sounds eerily reminiscent of Star Wars Battlefront 2. The caps there were also spawn zones. 

 

Place enough of these zones across some of the Air RB maps and you can actually have player tanks fight on the Ruhr map. 

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Copy pasted from another thread I responded to with a bit of addition, this is possibly more about AB than the others.

 

One of the ash river starts is heavily in favor of the right side team to win. 

 

First by the A point you have the left side team starting pointed up hill.  I have been in tanks that if I move forward I can't get over 2 miles an hr.  Those same tanks have issues turning around backing up down a hill.  The new spot for the right side of the map is not much more of a dash to the A point than it use to be.  The only down side to that point is you may get a bunch backed up at the bridge.  Result right sides is first to the point every time.

 

The B point shifted from near the downed aircraft to the north bridge which took out 90% of any cover you could attain from the bluffs over looking the point.  This means if there are more than one tank there you are exposed to fire no matter what unless you hold the A point and control the over look from the bluff.  Again due to the first point is in favor of the right side team.

 

The C point, this one makes no since to me.  Where it was perfectly balanced for both teams now it is almost exclusively in favor of the right side team.  Not only is it only feet from the right team spawn point but the left side team has to cross open terrain to get to it exposed to over watch of the right side team from the ridge near their spawn point.  The right side can hide one tank behind the rock with no risk to their team unless the opposing team infiltrates behind them.  As for the left side team, once taken you are exposed from anyone peeking over the ridge from the approach from the B point as well as just over the ridge up the hill just to the south.

 

I am not going to say it is impossible for the left side to win, we all know how you can find yourself on a very stream roll team but the fact is just from the start it is heavily balanced for the right side to win. I would say more than 75% in favor of the right side team.

 

Please Gaijin look at this map and re-balance the change.  I know the old map still exists I played it tonight but the new changes are really bunk for one team.

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 12/30/2016 at 7:05 AM, PL_Andrev said:

 

Maybe the lack of popularity of tanks here (IMHO much better than "other game about tanks" is poor tutorial?

Lets say what new players tell about GF WT (why they abandoned this game) /copied from another topic/

  1. planes go down and kill tanks,
  2. I'm loosing my tanks more often from artillery strikes or bombs than hits by other tanks,
  3. when respawning I'm dying before back on tracks,
  4. tier I-II are dancing on grass as build from paper not from steel,

My comment:

(1) is comment about highly unbalanced game, when dominate teams uses planes massively (because they can)

  • there is no tutorial how and when use planes event on map (standing tanks at open fields because players use planes is very often spot),
  • there is no tutorial to show players why they should protect / attack ally bombers,

(2)(3) players don't know how to prevent themselves from bombs / artillery strikes:

  • there is no tutorial how to use artillery and planes at GF battles,
  • there is no tutorial how to prevent itself and ally team from artillery attack / attacking planes,

(4) players don't know another game mechanics:

  • there is no tutorial which show another gameplay with quite different rules (RB / SB), (no airplane events, rare kamikaze raids),

I know that a lot of people is playing AB mode, but maybe Gaijin should force RB / SB to show another type of gameplay?

And balance them with rewards according to AB...

 

More easy way for players call this game "s#it" and back to another game about tanks than learn RB playing or fly as a fighter when necessary.

Who knows, maybe Gaijin has right when saying that WT AB is too hard for some players...

 

* IMHO Gaijin lost their chance to surprise community with something "fresh" EC battles: up to 64 players with open maps including tanks at RB / SB mode. 

 

 

kamakazie by plane in Arcade GF (rockets)  options are being explored and looked over to maybe do somthing in this area   

 

Typically arty has never been an issue , and if you dont hear , see , predict in cases that bombs are coming down on your location and said players decide not to move at all well yeah you're going to lose vehicles  , somtimes  you're unable to move from cover and other scenarios where you cant escape a bomb as i'm sure many RL tankers didn't either  

 

Spawns being rushed typically is another user/player  misjudgment , being over run in a battle field  is a forced occurrence that happens in RL too .  The main questions i want you all to ask yourselfs is WHY is our spawn being rushed ,  where have they come from and how do i stop that from happening again.  (end game when its you and a friend only onside dose not count as spawn camping  )  

 

 

Now you have said because there is no tutorial or informations , well there is maybe just not readily accessible  on the forum or (official How to in game videos)  or even Ytube publications.  I will ask about things 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Hunternz said:

(...) bombs are coming down on your location and said players decide not to move (...)

 

The problem is that new players don't know how to play and are snipped / eliminated very quickly from game.

We - active players - know how to play. Low experienced players no really - especially when they snipped just after leaving camping point.

 

 

7 hours ago, Hunternz said:

The main questions i want you all to ask yourselfs is WHY is our spawn being rushed ,  where have they come from and how do i stop that from happening again.

 

You question have one big error inside: I'm only one person ( 1/16 of team ) and I cannot stop enemy team rushing alone.

So how does players do to stop rushing enemy team? Nothing just left the battle.

Join-In-Progress may help, and for a lot of us it is one of main reasons to wait for World War mode. 

Funny, but at air battles there is no spawn rushing similar to GF RB battles too...

 

 

7 hours ago, Hunternz said:

kamakazie by plane in Arcade GF (rockets)  options are being explored and looked over to maybe do somthing in this area

 

I have no problem with them, but sometimes it is really frustrating when kamikaze pilot  leave bombs just second before impact.

Maybe a good solution is GF RB-style gameplay? I mean planes as vehicles in garage with limited fuel / ammo (tanks have limited ammo at AB). 

  • Upvote 3
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my biggest gripes when it comes maps mostly comes with useless spaces mostly in the form of buildings. Many city maps such as Berlin, Port Novorossiyk, and Advance on the Rhine are guilty of this. Many of the these spaces are made useless by having industructable buildings or massive piles of rubble. Other maps that would be guilty of this would be maps such as Second Battle of El Alamein, which have massive boulders in the way of paths that would be able to help to control the map better. It would be very nice if they would make more areas in their maps passable by either removing the large rocks, or allowing at least certain parts of buildings to be destructible with out tall peices of wall, or large piles of rubble getting in the way. 

Another form of useless spaces would be with maps such as White Rock Fortress which has a large amount of map that never even gets used(basically anything that isn't inside or in close proximity to the fortress). 

And one of my second largest gripes, would be with the maps, to which look much larger on one map, but you never get to see those parts. An example would be with the Berlin map, to which in one form shows large park area to the left of the part that actually can be used. I find this to be sort of annoying, particularly when there are new maps becuase it makes it look much larger than an actually is.

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Hunternz said:

and if you dont hear , see , predict in cases that bombs are coming down on your location and said players decide not to move at all well yeah you're going to lose vehicles

Typical scenario - I camped myself to defend the flank my team decided to ignore. There goes 4-5 enemies, I'm dealing with them. I can't move from my cover, there is no one to help me. I'm killing them one by one and I would win it, but one of them earlier took a base, so he drops bombs on me in just 45-60 seconds after I killed him. He probably would not spot me from the air, but I killed him, he knows exactly where I am and is going directly to revenge-bomb me. In most cases he is killing himself while dropping bombs on me, because all he want to achieve is revenge.

 

So there is no point in predicting where the bombs might fall. If You will kill a few enemies You can be sure at least one of them is going to try to make revenge, so Your location is irrelevant, You can be bombed everywhere and any time. It's just a matter of luck to me (I'm lucky when the guys I killed are not able to take bomber, or they suck at bombing :) )

  • Upvote 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thought I'd give feedback on Volokolamsk domination: Everygame I spawn on the north side it's an automatic loss. The north spawn is in the bottom of a bowl, and by the time you get to the top the enemy have capped all 3 objectives and set up in ambush. From then on their air can strafe anyone as they spawn, easy pickings as you slug up the hill. By the 3rd tank the spawn is a shooting gallery. The enemy can fire down over the ridge with near impunity, it's like fish in a barrel. I'd say either get rid of the spawn in a bowl rather than give both teams that disadvantage.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 31.12.2016 at 11:56 AM, PL_Andrev said:

New map comparison to the best map for player's majority: Sinai with 5 critierias (10 points to achive)

Sinai Map: 8.5/10

Korea: 0.0/10

Abandoned factory: 5.5/10

 

Updated rest of GF maps comparison with new procedures: 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/212131-best-map-for-tanks-features/#comment-6680113

 

procedure includes:

  • spawn camping problem,
  • enemy spotting possibility,
  • preferred gameplay style (camping / close-combat),
  • passive air cover (RB / SB),
  • integration with air map (air forces support),
  • personal opinions & ideas, 

 

The perfect map contains some features as:

  1. spawn camping is not possible from half map / capture points (due buildings, hills etc)
  2. contains few rocks / houses, only hills to camp & cover itself, 
  3. generally flat (lightly waved) map,
  4. winter and desert map (predefined cammo) / includes a lot groups of trees,
  5. looks an integral part of map from air,

Result of Korea map is... epic.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Kocant12 changed the title to Smaller versions of large maps are terrible
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...