The Ho 229 is unplayable with this flight model

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

I tried to spade this thing, just for the sake of doing so, but I found it to be unplayable.

Such an iconic and cool looking design ruined by the rudder compression-

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the previous flight model was kinda UFO for a wooden plane, but now the rudder compression is THE worst among ALL jets in the game which doesn't really make sense to me.

Above 600 you essentially have no rudder at all.

 

Honestly I think it should be tweaked a little bit just to be more playable.

It's slow, a huge target and has inaccurate, slow firing guns.

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by NoodleCup31

[Chomusuke1 1,223]

and it needs its bombs

[bananomet 633]

On 29/05/2022 at 11:30, NoodleCup31 said:

I tried to spade this thing, just for the sake of doing so, but I found it to be unplayable.

Such an iconic and cool looking design ruined by the rudder compression-

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the previous flight model was kinda UFO for a wooden plane, but now the rudder compression is THE worst among ALL jets in the game which doesn't really make sense to me.

Above 600 you essentially have no rudder at all.

 

Honestly I think it should be tweaked a little bit just to be more playable.

It's slow, a huge target and has inaccurate, slow firing guns.

 

It did not have a bad FM for a wooden plane since the wings snapped the second you pulled more than 9G above 550kmh.

Of course those days are long gone and the glory of the Ho229 as well.

Not so "fun fact" all the mk103 are getting a significant fire rate buff according to the dev server datamine. Except of course, the Ho229 which stays the same for some (USSR/USA tears) reason. xD

[Raldi92 2,923]

On 29/05/2022 at 11:30, NoodleCup31 said:

I tried to spade this thing, just for the sake of doing so, but I found it to be unplayable.

Such an iconic and cool looking design ruined by the rudder compression-

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the previous flight model was kinda UFO for a wooden plane, but now the rudder compression is THE worst among ALL jets in the game which doesn't really  really make sense to me.

Honestly I think it should be tweaked a little bit just to be more playable.

 

First of all 229 is not unplayable at all , its quite ok infact assuming you know what you are doing , you just have to lower your expectations and play it withing its limitations. It is quite normal that a pure wing without rudder will suffer from lack of rudder response compared to traditional jets , what is there so hard to understand ? You know the drill , if you think FM is not correct then you are free bug report with appropriate documents .

 

[xF4LC0NxPUNCHx 3,605]

On 29/05/2022 at 05:30, NoodleCup31 said:

... you...have no rudder at all

 

Clipped the relevant words

[PickleJarOfDeath 1,499]

I don't mind the rudder and that was just a part of the deal when I flew the Ho 229 from 2015 to 2019. Given the wingspan, the poor roll rate also made sense. However, in 1.91, the Ho 229 received a roll rate nerf that I found to be a terrible change because it was already relatively poor beforehand. I have 1504 kills in the 229 in RB. 1502 of which were before 1.91 and the reason is the roll rate nerf of that patch. If Gaijin were to cite their sources or let alone mention the change in the patch notes, I would be fine knowing that. However, I am deeply dissatisfied with the fact that Gaijin made a change that they didn't even acknowledge. That seems to me like a highly dishonest act. I think if they are willing to make numerous uncited changes to this aircraft over the years, they should be able to fix it with an uncited change.

[Anime_Thighs_OwO 140]

The flying characteristics should be comparable to the 262 according to the test pilots, yaw rate wasn't as bad as in game but when fully deflected they induced a lot of instability that could lead to a wing stall.

 

Unfortunately there is not enough info for me to report it since test pilot reports are not good enough sources

[POLYDEUCES 293]

On 02/06/2022 at 01:36, Anime_Thighs_OwO said:

The flying characteristics should be comparable to the 262 according to the test pilots, yaw rate wasn't as bad as in game but when fully deflected they induced a lot of instability that could lead to a wing stall.

 

Unfortunately there is not enough info for me to report it since test pilot reports are not good enough sources

It was superior to the Me 262.

I'd say the flight model is pretty decent currently.

[Anime_Thighs_OwO 140]

On 06/06/2022 at 19:57, POLYDEUCES said:

It was superior to the Me 262.

I'd say the flight model is pretty decent currently.

The 229 had comparable roll rate and yaw to the 262 according to the test pilots.

It was indeed superior to the 262 in mock dogfights in all characteristics 

[AbradolfLinkler 62]

On 30/05/2022 at 15:21, bananomet said:

It did not have a bad FM for a wooden plane since the wings snapped the second you pulled more than 9G above 550kmh.

Of course those days are long gone and the glory of the Ho229 as well.

Not so "fun fact" all the mk103 are getting a significant fire rate buff according to the dev server datamine. Except of course, the Ho229 which stays the same for some (USSR/USA tears) reason. xD

wait, what

[Ghostmaxi 873]

4 hours ago, AbradolfLinkler said:

wait, what

No, they also gave it now to Ho 229 Mk 103.

To be exact they will someday have the best Mk 103 in game, when they fix the I grenade then the Hvap belt has Hvap Aphe-T Hvap ApI

Edited June 17, 2022 by Ghostmaxi

[RXDimA 8]

I was curious to see what people in the forum think of the Horten, and ended up seeing this thread. It is only unplayable if you are not willing to put in the effort to learn how to fly it. It needs to be flown with a completely different approach than your usual plane, and as OP's video mentions, you need "600 hours" to get good with it (an exaggeration, but the point still stands).

One big advice I can give is to not pull 13g for no reason. You pull that hard only if your life depends on it, or you know you can put your guns on target. And that's just one aspect about flying the Horten correctly.

Here is one of my latest replays (make sure to use player view camera): https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/94070770309069776

I sometimes missed, sure, but it is nowhere near unplayable. The recent buff to the gun rate of fire seriously improved the plane, and any more buffs will make this plane too deadly. In downtiers props can't do anything against it, to the point I sometimes get 6 kill games without putting too much effort into them.

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

9 hours ago, RXDimA said:

In downtiers props can't do anything against it, to the point I sometimes get 6 kill games without putting too much effort into them.

A Me 262 can do the same?

[RXDimA 8]

17 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

A Me 262 can do the same?

The point of that sentence is to further support my stance that the Horten is not unplayable.

[Mordillo66 30]

The Ho 229 is still a good plane, if you know to fly it, and even an excellent Groundpounder. On the old Afghanistan Map i have won the battle on my own several times. On Zhengzhou it works pretty well, too. 

The only issue the Ho has are its cannons and their incorrect spreading after more than 2-3 shot bursts. Imo the cannon has to rip out of the frame where its fixed to reach those angles of spreading. At least, after the cadence buff, the enemy can't fly through your burst like before.

 

 

[ItzLollipop 83]

On 12/07/2022 at 08:24, Mordillo66 said:

The Ho 229 is still a good plane, if you know to fly it, and even an excellent Groundpounder.

 

Good is a very loose term I'd use for it. I'm an owner of it, Aced crew; This jet without a maximized crew slot is honestly underwhelming-But that isn't the main issue with the Ho-229.

 

The problem is a lot of things. Engine power/thrust ratio, armament, suspended armament. Still no option to swap between 151's, and 108's, Air frame.

 

Still waiting for that promised 1,000kg bomb load. But you know, can't get anything right in Germany.

[Ho229V3 79]

On 18/06/2022 at 05:40, Ghostmaxi said:

No, they also gave it now to Ho 229 Mk 103.

To be exact they will someday have the best Mk 103 in game, when they fix the I grenade then the Hvap belt has Hvap Aphe-T Hvap ApI

Hello, I read your report "3 cm I grenade wrong". Now this description is also added to the information card of the game. But its effect of penetrating the tank is still the same as that of API and hvap, and it will not explode in the vehicle. Is it because it has no delay fuse? Obviously, I grenade cannot produce the same explosive effect as Aphe in the game at present. I also saw its damage on the surface of the aircraft wing. When it hits the aircraft, it will explode immediately, just like HE. It will not continue to go forward. It seems that its effect on tanks is different from that on aircraft.

[Ghostmaxi 873]

41 minutes ago, Ho229V3 said:

Hello, I read your report "3 cm I grenade wrong". Now this description is also added to the information card of the game. But its effect of penetrating the tank is still the same as that of API and hvap, and it will not explode in the vehicle. Is it because it has no delay fuse? Obviously, I grenade cannot produce the same explosive effect as Aphe in the game at present. I also saw its damage on the surface of the aircraft wing. When it hits the aircraft, it will explode immediately, just like HE. It will not continue to go forward. It seems that its effect on tanks is different from that on aircraft.

I know, it just acts as a He shell where the fragments have the penetration, i added in an chat the Fuze sensitivity and, over all made a report, that it is not yet Ap, but they didnt change anything yet. It should fuze on 5mm Schiffsbaustahl (Schip construction steel) so about 2-3mm in game fuze sensitivty, but yet nothing. That it is still called I grenade is wrong anyway, its name is Panzerbrandsprenggranate ApIHe it should penetrate and explode after that. (it was a Dev server bug report)

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ghostmaxi

[Ghostmaxi 873]

1 hour ago, Ho229V3 said:

Hello, I read your report "3 cm I grenade wrong". Now this description is also added to the information card of the game. But its effect of penetrating the tank is still the same as that of API and hvap, and it will not explode in the vehicle. Is it because it has no delay fuse? Obviously, I grenade cannot produce the same explosive effect as Aphe in the game at present. I also saw its damage on the surface of the aircraft wing. When it hits the aircraft, it will explode immediately, just like HE. It will not continue to go forward. It seems that its effect on tanks is different from that on aircraft.

I used your pics and made a new one, https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/0QGPhUERPKiP

[Ho229V3 79]

15 minutes ago, Ghostmaxi said:

I used your pics and made a new one, https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/0QGPhUERPKiP

Thank you! But how much is the fuse delay? Or will it explode immediately after it meets the sensitivity requirements of the fuse? For example, Mg 151/20 Aphe in the figure below has a fuse delay of 1.5m, that is, it will explode after flying 1.5m.

 

 

[Ghostmaxi 873]

16 minutes ago, Ho229V3 said:

Thank you! But how much is the fuse delay? Or will it explode immediately after it meets the sensitivity requirements of the fuse? For example, Mg 151/20 Aphe in the figure below has a fuse delay of 1.5m, that is, it will explode after flying 1.5m.

 

 

Well, the fuze delay is, in the to me known documents, barly often written, but like the 20mm Aphe, they were Multypurpose, against all 3 types, Ground, Ships and armored planes such as IL-2s (when no other were avalable, the 20mm Aphes production got ceased, and only remaining stock after like 42 or 43 was used) and for the 3 cm round befor there was the (in game) Ap-I and an plain Aphe-T, but both were ceased in production and replaced by sayed ApheI-T so increase overall effectiveness (because for 2 effects you only now need 1 round which the 2nd can now be He (which also was ceased) or Minengeschoss) But around 1-1,5 m seems good, considdering it was also used against ships and trains. and the 2 and 3 cm AP-I (electron) also fuzed after about 2m

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ghostmaxi

[DaemonBlackfyre 66]

On 29/05/2022 at 10:30, NoodleCup31 said:

Such an iconic and cool looking design ruined by the rudder compression-

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the previous flight model was kinda UFO for a wooden plane, but now the rudder compression is THE worst among ALL jets in the game which doesn't really make sense to me.

Above 600 you essentially have no rudder at all.

Why is a surprise that a flying wing with no rudder has the worst yaw response of all jets? What part of that doesn't make sense?

99.9% sure the game model still flies better than the real thing ever could.

 

I finally unlocked the 229 shortly after the flight model nerf (which I didn't see the notification about) and jumped in, expecting the UFO I'd had to fight against for years, only to find it was a potato. But I was only disappointed for that game before I realised people could play high tier props again without getting stomped on by this stupid thing. It's only iconic because its been featured in so many games where the devs always just assumed it should be fantastic (because German wonder weapon) and gave it a fictitious flight model. There is a reason why literally nobody else tried to make a flying wing fighter... Even the 229 was only turned into a fighter on the orders of the German government, it was concepted as a prototype jet bomber (like the Northrop designs).

[DaemonBlackfyre 66]

On 06/06/2022 at 23:57, POLYDEUCES said:

It was superior to the Me 262.

 

On 09/06/2022 at 05:46, Anime_Thighs_OwO said:

The 229 had comparable roll rate and yaw to the 262 according to the test pilots.

It was indeed superior to the 262 in mock dogfights in all characteristics 

The 1st prototype was a glider, which crashed (though that might have been pilot error).

The 2nd prototype (and only one to have an engine, but still not full size) suffered an engine fire and crashed on its 3rd test flight, killing the pilot.

The 3rd prototype (that the game version is based on) was never completed and never flew by either the Germans or the Allies after the war.

 

There were NO mock dogfights!

On the 3rd test flight you don't even test aerobatic performance. You'd still be trying to test the aircraft systems and basic flying characteristics, like does it fly straight.

[RXDimA 8]

5 hours ago, DaemonBlackfyre said:

Why is a surprise that a flying wing with no rudder has the worst yaw response of all jets? What part of that doesn't make sense?

99.9% sure the game model still flies better than the real thing ever could.

 

I finally unlocked the 229 shortly after the flight model nerf (which I didn't see the notification about) and jumped in, expecting the UFO I'd had to fight against for years, only to find it was a potato. But I was only disappointed for that game before I realised people could play high tier props again without getting stomped on by this stupid thing. It's only iconic because its been featured in so many games where the devs always just assumed it should be fantastic (because German wonder weapon) and gave it a fictitious flight model. There is a reason why literally nobody else tried to make a flying wing fighter... Even the 229 was only turned into a fighter on the orders of the German government, it was concepted as a prototype jet bomber (like the Northrop designs).

A plane that can 1v1 a Su-11 is a potato? You need to learn how to use it before evaluating it so poorly. Or else it'll end up at br 6.0 lmao

[z0000zm 4]

    If you are a novice pilot flying ho229, my advice to you is not to expect the performance of ho229 to be optimized. From Gaijin's point of view, it will affect other vehicles (air/ground), especially gold coin fighters such as SU11 and F89B\D, and I will answer the reasons why I think so later.

    If you are an experienced ho229 pilot, my advice to you is to change the driving style and experience you have maintained for ho229 in the previous version, and you can complete your wingman duties by cooperating with your teammates. Of course, you can also go to melee. Although you will get good results occasionally, the long-term benefits will not be very good. If you just open the upgrade line quickly and skip driving ho229, you can join the melee. As for why Gaijin should not expect to optimize ho229, the main reason is that in the current environment, most of the pilots of fighter planes such as su11 and F98 that ho229 faces are not skilled in driving, so it will give other players who don't play gold fighter planes the illusion that ho229 has the power of World War I, because ho229 can always get a little success in melee, but in the end, most ho229 can't escape from melee and be shot down. However, experienced pilots flying these gold coin fighters can easily crush ho229 with rolling climbing and speed. Finally, the weakening of ho229 is inseparable from the fact that the land attack on the ground is too strong, thus weakening the bullet chain and weakening the maneuverability and acceleration ability.

    Compared with the previous version, the current ho229 is easier for novices to drive, but the driving technology cannot make up for the performance of the fighter. In the previous version, if you can control the speed and operating range to avoid breaking, you can protect yourself even if you don't have the strength of World War I in the face of the original yak23, G91 and other fighters. I had a post about ho229, but no one would pay attention to it. After all, the top fighters are no longer the era of F86, so there are not many people driving ho229, because there is no attention. Coupled with gaijin's slogan that history is close to history, the balance of semi-drawing aircraft or prototypes is not so important. Anyway, based on the data, ho229 can be mixed and profitable, which is their idea. This also explains why, after weakening the engine power and control, it would rather reduce it to RB7.0 than restore its original capability. Now, F80 is more agile and faster than ho229, while P51 can crush ho229 with a high altitude, not to mention fighters such as F2G and yak15, Venom and Spitfire, so my suggestion is not to fly this plane if I don't particularly like ho229. For details, please see my post.