missiles The AIM-54 Phoenix missile - Technology, History and Performance

[Fireball_2020 467]

10 hours ago, MaMoran20@psn said:

False. Track is able to be kept during the beam, thus strike. 

 

Acquisition being an important word. Different from detection and tracking phases. 

 

All this wording implies MPRF on the C imo. 

 

This lack of maneuverability and terrible guidance has been proven long time ago, not a new thing. 

For radar( acquisition and track can be pretty similar in performance) so this definitely suggests it fails to track beat aspect.

18 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said:

Maneuverability of the AIM-54 seems to be higher than expected. Two sources mention 25g and one source mentions 20g maneuverability during testing.

 

Other secondary sources mention that AIM-54 is dogfightable.

• Fiscal Year 1973 Authorization for Military Procurement, Research and Development, Construction Authorization for the Safeguard ABM, and Active Duty and Selected Reserve Strengths, Hearings

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Mr. GILLEAS: Can you discuss in open session the dogfight capability of the Phoenix, as to the minimum capable ranges it has in a dogfight?

Mr. K. RICHARDSON: For the Phoenix missile? Sir, I cannot do that in an open session. I would be privileged to do so later.

Mr. GILLEAS: How would you rebut an allegation on the floor, if somebody says it is not usable for close-in combat, and that it is strictly a long-range standoff missile?

Mr. K. RICHARDSON: My only chance to refute that in an open session is to say, sir; that it is not true. And I would supply the data, which is classified, to indicate that it is not so. It is quite useful in close-in encounters.

(The information follows:)

The Phoenix missile has been designed to cope with a wide variety of targets under many attack conditions. For dogfights the missile has the following enhancing features:

1. An excellent warhead with a large lethal zone.
2. A well-proven self-contained proximity fuze.
3. A unique and novel guidance system which is independent of the F-14 after launch (permitting launch-and-leave for engagement of another target).
4. High maneuverability.

For close-in attacks against maneuvering fighters, the minimum launch range will be about twice that of other comtemporary radar missiles, because the rocket motor has been optimized for long range performance. The resulting firing envelope provides a formidable kill capability in most dogfights.

 

• The Great Book of Modern Warplanes

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Below: AIM-54A Phoenix differs from the later AIM-54C version only in the digital avionics and radar. Its manoeuvre capability is reported as being up to 25g.

 

• Department of Defense Authorization for Appropriations for Fiscal Year 1981 (H.R. 6495)

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Evaluate missile structural design to withstand high "g" flight dynamics.

 

• Grumman's advertisement featured in the August 21, 1981 issue of Aviation Week magazine

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F-14 can track and evaluate up to twenty-four targets at one time. From a stand-off position, it can launch its six Phoenix missiles simultaneously against the greatest threats and still monitor eighteen additional targets. The missiles with their supersonic speed, 25-g turn capability, terminal radar homing guidance and ECM resistance allow one F-14 to defeat a half-dozen of the enemy's best. At distances of over 100 miles, and from sea level to over 100,000 feet.

 

• Interavia 1982-12: Vol 37 Iss 12, “Phoenix Missile System” by J. Geddes

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AWG-9 pulse-mode processor measures range and choses a tracking gate around target. Range-rate is also derived. Against a short range manoeuvring target, AIM-54C, using missile's radar, has pulled 20G to intercept.

 

• Department of Defense Appropriations for 1983

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The TOMCAT/PHOENIX also have proven capability against fighters maneuvering at maximum capability at short range, extremely low altitude targets, including a simulated cruise missile, extremely high altitude aircraft, simulated air-to-surface missiles, and targets employing or being screened by electronics countermeasures.

 

• Aviation Ordnanceman 2 & 3

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The tactical AIM-54C Phoenix (figure 6-16) is an air-launched, air-to-air guided missile that employs active, semiactive, and passive homing capabilities. The AIM-54C is designed to be used primarily as a long-range air-intercept missile launched from the F-14 aircraft, which is equipped with the AWG-9 Airborne Missile Con- trol System (AMCS). The missile can be launched in multiple missile attacks, as required, against hostile forces. A maximum of six AIM-54C Phoenix missiles can be launched from a single aircraft with simultaneous guidance against widely separated targets. In addition, the missile has dogfight, electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM), and anticruise missile capabilities.

 

This definitely screams 25G dual plane. 

[Fireball_2020 467]

i would love to know how these in flight mode changes occur and the diffences between them in either variant.

[MiG_23M 1,684]

1 minute ago, Fireball_2020 said:

The key point here is that "at short range using onboard radar" (10.3 nm or less) was able to pull 20G... meaning that within the active launch range the missile can already reach 20G maneuverability. This is certainly not possible currently.

[Fireball_2020 467]

Just now, MiG_23M said:

The key point here is that "at short range using onboard radar" (10.3 nm or less) was able to pull 20G... meaning that within the active launch range the missile can already reach 20G maneuverability. This is certainly not possible currently.

thats because missiles are limited to single plane pull in game, so technically every missile is underperforming.

[MiG_23M 1,684]

1 minute ago, Fireball_2020 said:

thats because missiles are limited to single plane pull in game, so technically every missile is underperforming.

I don't think this is the case, I think the AIM-54A/C can both pull significantly more than 17-18G if necessary, especially depending on speed / fuel quantity.

[Fireball_2020 467]

2 minutes ago, MiG_23M said:

I don't think this is the case, I think the AIM-54A/C can both pull significantly more than 17-18G if necessary, especially depending on speed / fuel quantity.

[MiG_23M 1,684]

1 minute ago, Fireball_2020 said:

It denotes maximum speed but explicitly states "has recorded 17 G turn rates during testing", of which we know almost none of the testing required a maximum overload intercept as its' only test against a maneuvering target was one that did a 5G inverted dive about 1900m, with a 6G pull-out towards the missile... to which it intercepted. If only 17G was required to hit that, it matches the overloads output by the target if we are going off the "3x required overload to hit target maneuvering at X g force" rule of thumb.

Spoiler

 

[Fireball_2020 467]

3 minutes ago, MiG_23M said:

It denotes maximum speed but explicitly states "has recorded 17 G turn rates during testing", of which we know almost none of the testing required a maximum overload intercept as its' only test against a maneuvering target was one that did a 5G inverted dive about 1900m, with a 6G pull-out towards the missile... to which it intercepted. If only 17G was required to hit that, it matches the overloads output by the target if we are going off the "3x required overload to hit target maneuvering at X g force" rule of thumb.

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The game doesnt model dual plane manuevre, therefore a single plane maneuvre is only capable of 17.8G's

[MiG_23M 1,684]

9 minutes ago, Fireball_2020 said:

The game doesnt model dual plane manuevre, therefore a single plane maneuvre is only capable of 17.8G's

The missile is advanced, the seeker is stabilized inside the nosecone. The missile is perfectly capable of maneuvering in dual plane as necessary to intercept targets, it should always have dual plane capability.

This is not an AIM-9 with rollerons to stabilize it's flight, it's a $600,000+ 1980's dollar missile with solid state electronics in the case of the AIM-54C. It has programmable memory and a highly advanced guidance system, it would not make sense to limit the missile to single plane maneuvering, especially since the tail-fin design requires the entire missile pitch with greater AoA to maneuver than a winged design like the AIM-7.

[Fireball_2020 467]

Just now, MiG_23M said:

The missile is advanced, the seeker is stabilized inside the nosecone. The missile is perfectly capable of maneuvering in dual plane as necessary to intercept targets, it should always have dual plane capability.

It doesnt work like that, the dev's have chosen not to model dual plane turn on missiles. 

[MiG_23M 1,684]

4 minutes ago, Fireball_2020 said:

It doesnt work like that, the dev's have chosen not to model dual plane turn on missiles. 

They have explicitly chosen not to model dual plane maneuverability on missiles that do not actively seek to attain dual-plane maneuverability. This is why the design of the Magic 2 allows the missile to constantly push for or achieve 50G vs 35G, and why the Phoenix should also be able to maneuver in dual plane as necessary. The AIM-9 is roll-stabilized, it cannot maneuver in dual-plane unless happenstance the target maneuvers diagonal to the launch direction of the AIM-9... 

 

This is a simple fix because it either always maneuvers in dual plane or doesn't... and in this case there is no reason it could not.

[MiG_23M 1,684]

Does anyone have the redacted copy of the Outsider's view of the AWG-9 / Phoenix weapon system document? The FOIA'd one?
I need to see if the page in question discussing the guidance unit has this info, because it is clear that the missile would be capable of just maintaining proper roll as such it could maneuver in dual plane all the time.

Edited June 18, 2023 by MiG_23M

[SE_8749236 83]

4 hours ago, MiG_23M said:

Combined plane maneuverability is calculated essentially like so for the AIM-54;

18G (lateral plane acceleration), therefore 18 squared, x2 = "X" The square root of "X" is then 25.5G, the multi-plane maneuverability limit of the AIM-54. (presumably).

Without getting too complicated, the multi-plane maneuvering provides extra lift in the direction of motion by using more of the control surfaces available. Not all missiles are capable of doing this such as AIM-9 since they are roll stabilized.

 

4 hours ago, Flame2512 said:

 

It provides a higher g pull because both sets of fins can provide lift instead of just one set. Here's a quick diagram for the AIM-9L (which had 32g single plane and 45g combined plane IRL):

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Thank you so much! Now I learnt something that I didn't know yesterday.

[DracoMindC 317]

1 hour ago, MiG_23M said:

Does anyone have the redacted copy of the Outsider's view of the AWG-9 / Phoenix weapon system document? The FOIA'd one?
I need to see if the page in question discussing the guidance unit has this info, because it is clear that the missile would be capable of just maintaining proper roll as such it could maneuver in dual plane all the time.

I have it but the entire section on the AIM-54's characteristics is redacted

[MythicPi 593]

Really sucks when you have the information, but its technically still classified so you cant provide it, and end up with an incorrect feature ingame.

 

Not blaming the devs here, I understand why they dont use piblicly available classified sources, but it is a tad annoying to know its incorrect but not be able to fix it...

[MiG_23M 1,684]

4 minutes ago, MythicPi said:

Really sucks when you have the information, but its technically still classified so you cant provide it, and end up with an incorrect feature ingame.

Not blaming the devs here, I understand why they dont use piblicly available classified sources, but it is a tad annoying to know its incorrect but not be able to fix it...

The document page in question isn't available to the public right now lol, if they have it.. it's been illegally leaked. There are actually two individuals who have submitted more recent FOIA requests for the document so we must wait.. unless a newer FOIA release has page 66 on it.. that would be all that is needed.

[malucobeleza171@psn 134]

I want to do a early report, i know this issue bug is from last major update, but it is on la Royale patch, they nerfed awg9 search period, but this issue is now worse, you cannot simple lock on and fire nothing in this patch, today i was played and always the lock on suddenly change and i cannot fire any missile properly and every time i was need to relock and i lose time in this period, Sunday, 18 of Jun.

I recorded this bug of today in many videos with other many issues, but this vídeo issue is the same.

Seriosly, It is Impossible to use aim 54 after this change log

Edited June 19, 2023 by malucobeleza171@psn

[SE_8749236 83]

5 hours ago, MiG_23M said:

and in this case there is no reason it could not.

It is a simple fix, but there could be a reason, the fix may be deliberately postponed and only delivered when other ARH (like Aim-120, MICA, R-33S) arrives in the game.

[Lolman345 588]

3 hours ago, SE_8749236 said:

It is a simple fix, but there could be a reason, the fix may be deliberately postponed and only delivered when other ARH (like Aim-120, MICA, R-33S) arrives in the game.

Tbh the 54C's seeker was used as the base to create the AIM-120's if the latter arrives in game by the time such a fix for the 54C arrives it more or less makes the 54C outright obsolete on the F-14 series as they have the ability to mount 120s, albeit only on the outboard sparrow stations. 

 

As it stands, its not like the current performance of the missile is impressive to say the least to begin with, a improved seeker does not really change much as it stands if the missile cant reliably engage a majority of targets aerodynamics wise.

 

(Omitting that the AWG-9 and both AIM-54s are profusely broken as well right now to begin with) 

[MiG_23M 1,684]

35 minutes ago, Lolman345 said:

Tbh the 54C's seeker was used as the base to create the AIM-120's if the latter arrives in game by the time such a fix for the 54C arrives it more or less makes the 54C outright obsolete on the F-14 series as they have the ability to mount 120s, albeit only on the outboard sparrow stations. 

 

As it stands, its not like the current performance of the missile is impressive to say the least to begin with, a improved seeker does not really change much as it stands if the missile cant reliably engage a majority of targets aerodynamics wise.

 

(Omitting that the AWG-9 and both AIM-54s are profusely broken as well right now to begin with) 

If the AIM-54 is updated and can pull the dual plane 25G maneuvers, it will be quite useful and offer an advantage over the AIM-120 --> Range & lethality.