The Z-19E and the persons abusing it.

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

Hi all ill start this topic by talking about the Z-19E.

So the new Chinese helicopter looks visually stunning with equally menacing armament, now I'm not here to talk about its agms which are perfectly fine, but the 8 high performance air to air missiles it carries.

Heres a picture for everyone's sake:

Spoiler

Most helicopters can carry air to air missiles around this battle rating though paling in comparison to this one, China has finally been treated as of recent with fixes to their vehicles as was need, the ztz99A and their first helicopter the Z-19E. This all combined makes the Chinese tree all the more appealing(thought they are missing a late version of the Q-5 or some other dedicated ground attack aircraft). Anyways on to the problem.

The Z-19E mounting 8 AGMs and 8 air to air missiles along with all the regular bells and whistle top tier helicopters have is a lethal package capable of shutting down both air and ground targets- this is alright and it was introduced at 10.3 which is fine too.

There is one major issue though, through the many matches I've played since the update has been released I have been noticing several players have been abusing the ability to spawn the Z-19E first loaded with 8 air to air missiles and have been positioning themselves to camp the air spawn and Helicopter spawns of the opposing teams and out of reach of the opposing team's anti aircraft.

This is blatant abuse giving persons no time to react and no real way to retaliate against them beyond special and rare methods.

There is a simple fix to this though, instead of nerfing the missile simply increase the spawn points required for the 8 air to air missile loadout  just enough so the abusive players are unable to ruin matches through such methods of spawning the Z-19E first and camping aerial spawn zones.

I mean I've only been killed 2-3 times so far, but the deaths will add up and well its quite unfair to players, beyond that its a fine helicopter maybe ill pick it up after its fixed ;).

 

Edit: And with the addition of the chinese heli tree an even worst offender has appeared the Z-9W and the Z-9WA with 4 and 8 of these missile at 9.3 and 9.7 respectively..

Edited October 30, 2022 by Mr_Pokemon26295

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

gotta get around Chinas lack of a usable SAM somehow

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

4 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

gotta get around Chinas lack of a usable SAM somehow

Lol they indeed need a SAM or two

[汉征西将军曹侯 18]

Excuse me? Did you buy this gift bag? Hope to get your feeling after use

[seleuciakirakira 2]

after this Heli kill me four times in a few minutes (3mbt and 1aa), I doubt 

[AceFalcon6 168]

it is new give it a few months and it will be nerfed 

[jet_17_49 411]

Jeez dude it's not even been a week since this thing dropped, can a man not harvest sweaty AGM spammer tears in peace?

Edited June 19, 2022 by jet_17_49

[Snow_Gryphon 260]

Spawncamping in helicopters has been an issue since forever, maybe gaijin could give as an early respawn loadout only 4 AAM (which is pretty equal to other helicopters that carry MANPADs and AAM).
Gaijin could theoretically (and practically) buff MANPADS to their realistic performance so that other nation's helicopters have decent AA capability.

[evilanatkh 35]

You can do this with Tunguska at the beginning of the game, Roland and Azda can also achieve this effect, why don't you do it？you only need 70 respawn points?
 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

11 hours ago, Mr_Pokemon26295 said:

Hi all ill start this topic by talking about the Z-19E.

So the new Chinese helicopter looks visually stunning with equally menacing armament, now I'm not here to talk about its agms which are perfectly fine, but the 8 high performance air to air missiles it carries.

Heres a picture for everyone's sake:

Reveal hidden contents

Most helicopters can carry air to air missiles around this battle rating though paling in comparison to this one, China has finally been treated as of recent with fixes to their vehicles as was need, the ztz99A and their first helicopter the Z-19E. This all combined makes the Chinese tree all the more appealing(thought they are missing a late version of the Q-5 or some other dedicated ground attack aircraft). Anyways on to the problem.

The Z-19E mounting 8 AGMs and 8 air to air missiles along with all the regular bells and whistle top tier helicopters have is a lethal package capable of shutting down both air and ground targets- this is alright and it was introduced at 10.3 which is fine too.

There is one major issue though, through the many matches I've played since the update has been released I have been noticing several players have been abusing the ability to spawn the Z-19E first loaded with 8 air to air missiles and have been positioning themselves to camp the air spawn and Helicopter spawns of the opposing teams and out of reach of the opposing team's anti aircraft.

This is blatant abuse giving persons no time to react and no real way to retaliate against them beyond special and rare methods.

There is a simple fix to this though, instead of nerfing the missile simply increase the spawn points required for the 8 air to air missile loadout  just enough so the abusive players are unable to ruin matches through such methods of spawning the Z-19E first and camping aerial spawn zones.

I mean I've only been killed 2-3 times so far, but the deaths will add up and well its quite unfair to players, beyond that its a fine helicopter maybe ill pick it up after its fixed ;).

no surprise there , i've been playing for 10 years almost and it was always like this , as soon as something was above average or blatantly OP it was always abuse up until the new OP thing and/or counter part

[GoneToTheAether 9,581]

16 hours ago, Mr_Pokemon26295 said:

Hi all ill start this topic by talking about the Z-19E.

So the new Chinese helicopter looks visually stunning with equally menacing armament, now I'm not here to talk about its agms which are perfectly fine, but the 8 high performance air to air missiles it carries.

Heres a picture for everyone's sake:

Hide contents

Most helicopters can carry air to air missiles around this battle rating though paling in comparison to this one, China has finally been treated as of recent with fixes to their vehicles as was need, the ztz99A and their first helicopter the Z-19E. This all combined makes the Chinese tree all the more appealing(thought they are missing a late version of the Q-5 or some other dedicated ground attack aircraft). Anyways on to the problem.

The Z-19E mounting 8 AGMs and 8 air to air missiles along with all the regular bells and whistle top tier helicopters have is a lethal package capable of shutting down both air and ground targets- this is alright and it was introduced at 10.3 which is fine too.

There is one major issue though, through the many matches I've played since the update has been released I have been noticing several players have been abusing the ability to spawn the Z-19E first loaded with 8 air to air missiles and have been positioning themselves to camp the air spawn and Helicopter spawns of the opposing teams and out of reach of the opposing team's anti aircraft.

This is blatant abuse giving persons no time to react and no real way to retaliate against them beyond special and rare methods.

There is a simple fix to this though, instead of nerfing the missile simply increase the spawn points required for the 8 air to air missile loadout  just enough so the abusive players are unable to ruin matches through such methods of spawning the Z-19E first and camping aerial spawn zones.

I mean I've only been killed 2-3 times so far, but the deaths will add up and well its quite unfair to players, beyond that its a fine helicopter maybe ill pick it up after its fixed ;).

This sounds like an issue more about the fact that planes are not granted the same privileges to spawn as helicopters are. This situation only exists due to the lingering blatant favoritism extended towards helicopters. Really, they are just fancy spin-offs from jet technology to grant more time on target and loiter time over a combat area than increasingly-faster fuel-guzzling jets are able to do (same logic also spawned the A-10). 

 

If planes with no secondary armament, only AAMs, or only unguided ordinance got the same treatment as helicopters do, we would not be having this or any related "problem" at all. Ironically, planes are easier to shoot down with SAMs than helicopters because planes generally cannot rocket-wall SAMs dead in midair.

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

Gotta let it slide for now since China has no SACLOS SAM atm lmao, try using the PGZ04A against a mig 27 GBU-ing you from 5k or an american jet mavving you from 6km away....or a ka-50....

 

Maybe move the Z-19E to 10.7 instead if the TY90s seem too OP for 9.3s

[CrossEyedN00b 2,397]

This was the go to tactic of some premium Mi-24s, nothing new, but their missiles were not as potent.

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

15 hours ago, Snow_Gryphon said:

Spawncamping in helicopters has been an issue since forever, maybe gaijin could give as an early respawn loadout only 4 AAM (which is pretty equal to other helicopters that carry MANPADs and AAM).
Gaijin could theoretically (and practically) buff MANPADS to their realistic performance so that other nation's helicopters have decent AA capability.

True I do wish they fix the other manpads as well but that may cause its own set of issues the 4 aam idea is a good one though

 

7 hours ago, NAYEONnaise said:

Gotta let it slide for now since China has no SACLOS SAM atm lmao, try using the PGZ04A against a mig 27 GBU-ing you from 5k or an american jet mavving you from 6km away....or a ka-50....

 

Maybe move the Z-19E to 10.7 instead if the TY90s seem too OP for 9.3s

Well yeah that is also a good option since the ztz99s are 10.7 as well

8 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

This sounds like an issue more about the fact that planes are not granted the same privileges to spawn as helicopters are. This situation only exists due to the lingering blatant favoritism extended towards helicopters. Really, they are just fancy spin-offs from jet technology to grant more time on target and loiter time over a combat area than increasingly-faster fuel-guzzling jets are able to do (same logic also spawned the A-10). 

 

If planes with no secondary armament, only AAMs, or only unguided ordinance got the same treatment as helicopters do, we would not be having this or any related "problem" at all. Ironically, planes are easier to shoot down with SAMs than helicopters because planes generally cannot rocket-wall SAMs dead in midair.

True it would be much easier to kill them as well though the z-19e would make short work of them

14 hours ago, evilanatkh said:

You can do this with Tunguska at the beginning of the game, Roland and Azda can also achieve this effect, why don't you do it？you only need 70 respawn points?
 

True but by being smart the helicopter player can easily avoid the sam and get into a position of camping and safety (this depends on the map of course)

13 hours ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

no surprise there , i've been playing for 10 years almost and it was always like this , as soon as something was above average or blatantly OP it was always abuse up until the new OP thing and/or counter part

Yeah will use anyway to avoid/speed up the grind

4 hours ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

This was the go to tactic of some premium Mi-24s, nothing new, but their missiles were not as potent.

Yup I saw it happening as well back then but yeah 8 of those missiles are a bit to potent

[Snow_Gryphon 260]

12 hours ago, Mr_Pokemon26295 said:

True I do wish they fix the other manpads as well but that may cause its own set of issues the 4 aam idea is a good one though

IIRC manpads appear only in top tier, and if gaijin would nerf IRCCM (not too much, but a non afterburning jet deploying flares should be able to decoy or at least degrade the tracking missile) while buffing the rest it would be fairly balanced. It's still ony 4 manpads per helicopter and given that some can take those as the only AA defense it would give some fighting chances. To make some counter Gaijin could buff aircraft's radar against Helicopters and somewhat nerf IRCM for at least all aspect missiles.

Plus, we could indirectly solve the Kamov's problem of the overperforming Vikhrs against jets: if gaijin introduces a more modern igla with similar performance to IRL Stingers and at the same time nerf the Vikhrs maneuvreability, Jets could have a more realistic chance to counter the Ka-50/52 while giving the Kamovs a balanced AA weapon. This of course doesn't mean that the Vikhrs will be weak (they would still dominate against other helicopters or head-on jets) and there are other issues (IRL only 2 Vikhrs could be launched and guided at the same time is the second biggest IMO, there could be a switch to change Vikrs from AT to AA modes but it would be redundant), but it would be a step in the right direction.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Snow_Gryphon

[xXBobboXx 6]

Had the new Z-19 several times now as an opponent on Uptier 9.3 Israel with the A-4N. These new TY90 rockets didn't really care that I used flares. The heli belongs on 10.7 or the TY have to be nerfd. In terms of feeling, the AIM92 or Igla do not perform nearly as well as the new ones

[Daffan 6,158]

The z19 being 10.3 is so overpowered it's unbelievable

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

On 05/09/2022 at 11:45, Daffan said:

The z19 being 10.3 is so overpowered it's unbelievable

 

dude TY-90s are now at 9.3 what makes Z-19E so OP lolololo

[GeneralArmchair 675]

On 19/06/2022 at 19:41, CrossEyedN00b said:

This was the go to tactic of some premium Mi-24s, nothing new, but their missiles were not as potent.

The mi-24 can do try to do the same thing, but those R60's get spoofed by countermeasures if the enemy pilot so much as thinks spicy thoughts.

[TomHale 25]

CAN A MODERATOR OR DEV PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT IS FAIR THAT A ZE 19 CAN SPAWN AT THE START OF THE GAME WITH AA MISSILE AND JUST FLY TO THE OPPOSING HELIPAD AND CAMP. WHY IS THIS ALLOWED?!?!?!? HOW FEW SPAWN POINTS IS IT TO STARTS WITH xxxx UN FLARABLE MISSILES?!?!?!? 

 

grinding low level hinds is painful enough without this xxxx

[Stray_BulletsCze 539]

How is playing a vehicle to it’s strength abusing ? 
CAS mains : “just spawn SPAA lmao” 

*Me : spawns Z-19*
CAS mains : “ NOoOoOoo YOU CAN’T DO THAT SO OP!!!!!!!!!1111 GAIJIN NERF!?!?”

 

To all of you mad about Z-19,

seethe, mald and cope lol. 

 

[Stray_BulletsCze 539]

On 30/09/2022 at 22:03, TomHale said:

CAN A MODERATOR OR DEV PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT IS FAIR THAT A ZE 19 CAN SPAWN AT THE START OF THE GAME WITH AA MISSILE AND JUST FLY TO THE OPPOSING HELIPAD AND CAMP. WHY IS THIS ALLOWED?!?!?!? HOW FEW SPAWN POINTS IS IT TO STARTS WITH xxxx UN FLARABLE MISSILES?!?!?!? 

 

grinding low level hinds is painful enough without this xxxx

I’M NOT MOD OR DEV BUT I EXPLAIN IT TO YOU HOW IT’S FAIR. 

EVERY OTHER HELI WITH ACCES TO AAMS CAN ALSO SPAWN WITH THEM AT THE START OF THE GAME. CHINA IS JUST THE ONLY NATION THAT BOTHER TO MAKE THEIR AAMS DECENT. ALSO Z-19S ATGMS SUCK SO IT’S FAIR IT HAS GOOD AAMS. GOD FORBID ANY OTHER HELI THAN KA-50 IS PLAYABLE AMIRITE? 

ALSO TY-90S ARE EASILY TO FLARE, YOU JUST NEED TO DUMP A LOT OF THEM. UNIRONICALLY SKILL ISSUE. 

YOU SHOULD BUY THE Z-19E TO SEE IT’S NOT SO GREAT AS YOU THINK. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Stray_BulletsCze

[Lolman345 588]

I'm really just envious of the TY-90 actually working. 

 

It's performance really should be applied retroactively to all MANPADS in game, maybe then the Type 91, Sidam, wizel and LAV-AD will be relevant, along with all the other nations mounting MANPADS on their helos. 

 

Every other MANPAD sized missile in the game is still hamstrung by gaijin applying the Igla's performance to all MANPADS, its about time this changed.

[TomHale 25]

23 hours ago, Stray_BulletsCze said:

How is playing a vehicle to it’s strength abusing ? 
CAS mains : “just spawn SPAA lmao” 

*Me : spawns Z-19*
CAS mains : “ NOoOoOoo YOU CAN’T DO THAT SO OP!!!!!!!!!1111 GAIJIN NERF!?!?”

 

To all of you mad about Z-19,

seethe, mald and cope lol. 

 

so you are a pay to win type eh? the fact you compare this to ANOTHER OP premium rather than a tech tree heli is telling.

 

what spaa can cover a friendly helipad?

 

the hinds cannot spawn with AA missiles that lock onto helis except other hinds

 

its abusing the fact they removed all damage from heli base aa

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by TomHale
checked lynx loadout and can start with its terrible stingers

[Grossaaaa 669]

In a full downtier too, I play my 9.3 and I see a chinese light J out after the enemy gets their cap, guess whose team got annihilated by a Z19E that was literally uncounterable????