Minor nations that could be added to the German air tree to breech the gap between Mig-29 to the Eurofighter

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

4th gen is on the horizon and with it comes a swath of legendary fighters like the teen sirs and the fulcrums (and maybe something French idk).

The only viable fighter the German will receive during that period is the Mig-29 and an F4F with AMRAAMs, this is not going to cut it against F-15 or F-18 (its like turning up with a moped to motorcycle race).

This poses now the question should the warsaw line be further expanded or the western line?

im more for a western expansion for Germany since it is a western country, but would also have no problem with a warsau proposal. 

My top contender of filling the gap would be the Netherlands. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by MaggyYolokrau1

[cervotoc123 129]

so mig 29 and f-16 in one TT i am getting flashbacks

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

yeah sounds like Poland and Taiwan.

but you cant really add another Mig-29 thats all that different or a Su-27 to my knowledge 

[warthogboy09 196]

On 03/08/2022 at 09:42, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

no an F4F with AMRAAMs is not going to cut it against an F-15 or -18

Except it really will cut it. In BFM the performance difference between the F-4 and F-15 is negligible. Once the AMRAAMS are headed each other's way it's either try your luck pressing and defeat it kinematically, or turn cold. The missile is doing all the hard work from there. I feel like you are just one of those people that sees phantoms as "grind fillers" and not the excellent platform that they are.

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

36 minutes ago, warthogboy09 said:

Except it really will cut it. In BFM the performance difference between the F-4 and F-15 is negligible. Once the AMRAAMS are headed each other's way it's either try your luck pressing and defeat it kinematically, or turn cold. The missile is doing all the hard work from there. I feel like you are just one of those people that sees phantoms as "grind fillers" and not the excellent platform that they are.

and when the AIM120 are not enough the F-4F could change the AIM 9 L to IRIS-T

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

17 hours ago, warthogboy09 said:

Except it really will cut it. In BFM the performance difference between the F-4 and F-15 is negligible. Once the AMRAAMS are headed each other's way it's either try your luck pressing and defeat it kinematically, or turn cold. The missile is doing all the hard work from there. I feel like you are just one of those people that sees phantoms as "grind fillers" and not the excellent platform that they are.

 

really you think so?

i personally enjoy the F-4s a lot more over the migs or god forbid the Su22.

but in my head it will probably not cut it at all.

sure it has a cool radar and AMRAMMs but as it currently is on our postage stamp sized maps flight performance dose matter A LOT.

Since every one is just going to lob there **** at one another in the begging, then get in to the fur ball and stab each other with IR missals and guns you will be at an significant disadvantage if you fly an F-4 that loose all its energy after one turn.

There is a large difference between an F-15 and an F-4, if we were talking about a Super Phantom then they would be on equal footing but we will still have the old engines form the normal F-4F.

Maybe it will preform even worse since it has to carry all the new electronics and weapons that will lower its flight performance, and on top of that you will have to deal with the other teens and fulcrums witch are in terms of flight performance light years a head. 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by MaggyYolokrau1

[Tantor57 10,319]

Germany not being even remotelylinked to any aircraft built in these last 70 years bar the ones it designed in cooperation with other countries should not receive aircraft from other nations. The gap that in their tech tree is historical and there is no historical way to fix this. Other nations in the game have this issue and i dont see why germany should be an excpetion.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Tantor57

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

12 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

Germany not being even remotely remoted to any aircraft built in these last 70 years bar the ones it designed in cooperation with other countries should not receive aircraft from other nations. The gap that in their tech tree is historical and the is no historical way to fix this. Other nations in the game have this issue and i dont see why germany should be an excpetion.

 

who says that cant change? 

Italy and japan need such a thing desperately.

why make the game shittier just to for fill some arbitrary historical nonsense, just look at all the Argentinian vehicles that are in the German TT the "exception" dose not exist. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by MaggyYolokrau1

[Bringer_Of_War 901]

5 hours ago, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

 

who says that cant change? 

Italy and japan need such a thing desperately.

why make the game shittier just to for fill some arbitrary historical nonsense, just look at all the Argentinian vehicles that are in the German TT the "exception" dose not exist. 

Italy and Japan are not germany 

You get a Mig 29 and an F-4F with Aim-9Ls and AIM-120s , that's enough

No need to add other nations to the tree when there's trees in much more dire situations 

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

On 09/08/2022 at 16:35, _ArchangelAzrael said:

Italy and Japan are not germany 

You get a Mig 29 and an F-4F with Aim-9Ls and AIM-120s , that's enough

No need to add other nations to the tree when there's trees in much more dire situations 

 

Yes captain obvious Germany is not Italy or Japan, but that still doesn't change the fact that the tree is going to be very stale and uncompetitive till the EURO Fighter releases since it literally jumps from Mig-29 to Typhoon 2000, there is no in-between witch puts this tree in "dire situation". Also that the F-4F is going to get AIM-9Ls and AMRAMMs in the future is completely irrelevant since every one is going to get AIM-9Ls and AMRAMMs anyways, which will make performance of jet all the more curtal. 

Next your forgetting that the Mig-29A that Germany gets has worse weaponry, is missing some radar modes and has no upgraded that Germany could receive.

Unlike you i don't like mediocre gameplay experiences and want something that is fun, so pleas make a suggestion on what could be added to Improve the tech tree since moping about how other nations have it worse is not the focus of this thread.

Edited August 27, 2022 by MaggyYolokrau1

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

2 hours ago, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

Next your forgetting that the Mig-29A that Germany gets has worse weaponry, is missing some radar modes and has no upgraded that Germany could receive.

The radar was the full thing apart from the soviet IFF that had been replaced with a NATO one afaik.

On 08/08/2022 at 22:24, _Iluminas_ said:

and when the AIM120 are not enough the F-4F could change the AIM 9 L to IRIS-T

IRIS-T is a Pandoras Box. That missile would wreak like nothing else, it practically has no counters, no amount of flares nor manouvering will help.

On 09/08/2022 at 15:16, Tantor57 said:

Germany not being even remotelylinked to any aircraft built in these last 70 years bar the ones it designed in cooperation with other countries should not receive aircraft from other nations. The gap that in their tech tree is historical and there is no historical way to fix this. Other nations in the game have this issue and i dont see why germany should be an excpetion.

It will get even worse for other nations as well. Modern aircraft procurement cant really substain the model of war thunder except for the very active nations in that field...

The Netherlands are atleast having a very close military relationship with Germany, to the point where units of both armies are integrated into each other. If thats enough reasoning for "connecting" their air forces, I dont know.

On 03/08/2022 at 10:42, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

4th gen is on the horizon and with it comes a swath of legendary fighters like the teen sirs and the fulcrums (and maybe something French idk).

The only viable fighter the German will receive during that period is the Mig-29 and no an F4F with AMRAAMs is not going to cut it against an F-15 or -18 (its like turning up to motorcycle race in a moped).

Well, the Eurofighter DA1 prototype with RB199 jets from the Tornado ADV would be another option.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,229]

On 08/08/2022 at 21:46, warthogboy09 said:

Except it really will cut it. In BFM the performance difference between the F-4 and F-15 is negligible. Once the AMRAAMS are headed each other's way it's either try your luck pressing and defeat it kinematically, or turn cold. The missile is doing all the hard work from there. I feel like you are just one of those people that sees phantoms as "grind fillers" and not the excellent platform that they are.

 

^ This. Especialy since the early mig 29s do not have fox 3 capabilities. Right after the end of the cold war tge russians were ahead in ir missile development (R-73) but were lagging behind in BVR missiles.

 

The final version of the F4F ICE had the F18s radar, which easily surpasses the one of the mig, AMRAAMS and AIM-9L sidewinders. Yes it won't beat the mig in a dogfight, but in BVR it is likeley to win.

[VF21_Freelancers 1,404]

It is just asking but, how F-4F ICE carried AMRAAMs?

 

Were they able to mount them at the fuselage like the Phantom IIs of other nations with BVR missiles?

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ayy_LMFAO

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

4 minutes ago, Ayy_LMFAO said:

It is just asking but, how F-4F ICE carried AMRAAMs?

 

Were they able to mount them at the fuselage like the Phantom IIs of other nations with BVR missiles?

 

 

Yes, the AMRAAMs were mounted just like the AIM-7s on the other F-4s, the mountings however were modified to mount the AMRAAMs and it was no longer possible to mount AIM-7s in them

 

[Lord_Prism 1,827]

1 hour ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

IRIS-T is a Pandoras Box. That missile would wreak like nothing else, it practically has no counters, no amount of flares nor manouvering will help.

Did you say engaging a jet BEHIND you, cause LOAL, 60G overload, and 90 degrees of gimballing a second is how you get that

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

32 minutes ago, Lord_Prism said:

Did you say engaging a jet BEHIND you, cause LOAL, 60G overload, and 90 degrees of gimballing a second is how you get that

Yep, but its somewhere over 100G. And then you also have to add the specialized rocket motor that gives a short window of lower thrust for manouvering after launch before entering the true boost phase. This also means that it looses somewhat less energy compared to normal boost-substain motors in high angle shots as the actual boost is only after the missile already aims towards the target. So if you are in range, you cant defeat it cinematically, you cant outmanouver it and you cannot flare it unless dumping so many flares it completely blocks the view of the seeker on your aircraft.

Oh and ±90° is the total view angle of the seeker. I dont think its gimbal speed are publically known

 

Still, imo the Typhoon DA1 with AIM-9L(I) and AIM-120 would probably the best option, and maybe the Tornado IDS (not F-4F ICE) with IRIS-T

Edited August 27, 2022 by BagelIsMyWaifu

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

59 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Yep, but its somewhere over 100G. And then you also have to add the specialized rocket motor that gives a short window of lower thrust for manouvering after launch before entering the true boost phase. This also means that it looses somewhat less energy compared to normal boost-substain motors in high angle shots as the actual boost is only after the missile already aims towards the target. So if you are in range, you cant defeat it cinematically, you cant outmanouver it and you cannot flare it unless dumping so many flares it completely blocks the view of the seeker on your aircraft.

Oh and ±90° is the total view angle of the seeker. I dont think its gimbal speed are publically known

 

Still, imo the Typhoon DA1 with AIM-9L(I) and AIM-120 would probably the best option, and maybe the Tornado IDS (not F-4F ICE) with IRIS-T

i'm so excited for future european missiles. IRIS-T is crazy and then there is the Meteor.... oH BOY thats a whole different beast.

 

i'll disagree with the prototype typhoons though as they apparently didnt get any defensive aids such as RWR or countermeasures(unless thats just a serial production thing as the early tranche 1 eurofighters didnt get those)

[Lord_Prism 1,827]

1 hour ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Yep, but its somewhere over 100G. And then you also have to add the specialized rocket motor that gives a short window of lower thrust for manouvering after launch before entering the true boost phase. This also means that it looses somewhat less energy compared to normal boost-substain motors in high angle shots as the actual boost is only after the missile already aims towards the target. So if you are in range, you cant defeat it cinematically, you cant outmanouver it and you cannot flare it unless dumping so many flares it completely blocks the view of the seeker on your aircraft.

Oh and ±90° is the total view angle of the seeker. I dont think its gimbal speed are publically known

 

Still, imo the Typhoon DA1 with AIM-9L(I) and AIM-120 would probably the best option, and maybe the Tornado IDS (not F-4F ICE) with IRIS-T

100Gs, thrust vectoring,that motor function sounds metal as xxxx, and 90 degrees of view? Holy ****. Dont forget its compatible with all sidewinder launch vehicles past the 9L IIRC. They shot one from an F4-F in 2002 

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

32 minutes ago, Lord_Prism said:

They shot one from an F4-F in 2002 

i'm pretty sure that the F-4F was used as a testbed

for developing it ya know

according to wikipedia the first 2 test missiles were fired from the F-4(so the F-4F cuz germany only used that one) during or after 1996

Edited August 27, 2022 by Faster_Boiiiii

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

4 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

The radar was the full thing apart from the soviet IFF that had been replaced with a NATO one afaik.

IRIS-T is a Pandoras Box. That missile would wreak like nothing else, it practically has no counters, no amount of flares nor manouvering will help.

It will get even worse for other nations as well. Modern aircraft procurement cant really substain the model of war thunder except for the very active nations in that field...

The Netherlands are atleast having a very close military relationship with Germany, to the point where units of both armies are integrated into each other. If thats enough reasoning for "connecting" their air forces, I dont know.

Well, the Eurofighter DA1 prototype with RB199 jets from the Tornado ADV would be another option.

looks like i opend Pandoras Hype Box

[MaggyYolokrau1 135]

On 27/08/2022 at 17:05, DerGrafVonZahl said:

The final version of the F4F ICE had the F18s radar, which easily surpasses the one of the mig, AMRAAMS and AIM-9L sidewinders. Yes it won't beat the mig in a dogfight, but in BVR it is likeley to win.

 

Yes that would most certainly be the case that's also the reason why I'm exited to see the ICE finally come to the game, but one of my big concern's is that gaijin will mess up the AMRAAM.

Historically the AMRAAM was the silver bullet for the Fulcrums, since there biggest strength was nullified.

For that reason i kind have an itch that Gaijin will not let that happen and implement it in the shittiest way possible to not upset a large chunk of the player base.

 

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

2 hours ago, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

 

Yes that would most certainly be the case that's also the reason why I'm exited to see the ICE finally come to the game, but one of my big concern's is that gaijin will mess up the AMRAAM.

Historically the AMRAAM was the silver bullet for the Fulcrums, since there biggest strength was nullified.

For that reason i kind have an itch that Gaijin will not let that happen and implement it in the shittiest way possible to not upset a large chunk of the player base.

 

like its gonna be hella sensitive to chaff and have a huge notch sector

 

yea... could imagine

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

On 27/08/2022 at 18:58, Faster_Boiiiii said:

i'll disagree with the prototype typhoons though as they apparently didnt get any defensive aids such as RWR or countermeasures(unless thats just a serial production thing as the early tranche 1 eurofighters didnt get those)

The DA1 does have the chaff and flare countermeasure pylons and the wingtip pods for ESM (which include RWR) mounted. MAWS isnt mounted, nor is the gun (but hey, this wouldnt be the first time Gajin doesnt keep fully to the IRL variant to make a vehicle usable). Infact, after searching for a bit, this image is from the first flight of DA1 on the 27th March 1994.

https://www.eurofighter.com/multimedia/details/eads-d-ipa-1-first-flight-from-manching-27th-march-1994-285

The inner flare mounting seems to be non usable, other prototypes show a similar picture, while with the production aircrafts the holes for the flares are visible.

the outer BOL pod ejects rearwards so I cant tell if its usable. But still, this also shows that the first flight was already with weapons and Pirate IRST mounted

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

2 hours ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

The DA1 does have the chaff and flare countermeasure pylons and the wingtip pods for ESM (which include RWR) mounted. MAWS isnt mounted, nor is the gun (but hey, this wouldnt be the first time Gajin doesnt keep fully to the IRL variant to make a vehicle usable). Infact, after searching for a bit, this image is from the first flight of DA1 on the 27th March 1994.

https://www.eurofighter.com/multimedia/details/eads-d-ipa-1-first-flight-from-manching-27th-march-1994-285

The inner flare mounting seems to be non usable, other prototypes show a similar picture, while with the production aircrafts the holes for the flares are visible.

the outer BOL pod ejects rearwards so I cant tell if its usable. But still, this also shows that the first flight was already with weapons and Pirate IRST mounted

well in that case, it would probably be better addition over the F-4F ICE(cuz amraams ya know)...

it might also be the only German Eurofighter with PIRATE as the German industry had "withdrawn from that item of development"

 

the DA1 was later fitted with EJ200s so that could technically be an upgrade worth considering but the performance of those is kinda ridiculous so maybe not the best idea.

 

however..... i cannot find any information regarding a second pair of flare launchers. everything that i can find say that there are only 2 flare dispensers(one in each inboard flaperon actuator fairing) and 2 chaff launchers on the integrated tip stub pylon launchers (ITSPL, the outermost rails only used for short range IR missiles). thus, gaijin would have to ahistorically add flare and chaff launchers(idk if chaff launchers are on the DA1 but i dont think so due to the lack of flare launchers) to make it competitive(viggen situation all over again but a top tier aircraft is NOT competitive without countermeasures).

later development aircraft seem to have countermeasures(DA7 has them) but they'll have the EJ200s too so whats the point of adding those instead of a production aircraft

 

that would mean 2 ahistorical additions(not that it would be a first cough cough f-5c cough cough) but it would still be kinda weird

Edited August 29, 2022 by Faster_Boiiiii

[DirectSupport 938]

On 09/08/2022 at 08:24, MaggyYolokrau1 said:

why make the game shittier just to for fill some arbitrary historical nonsense,

Germany should have some advantages and disadvantages. In the same way that Japan has the same issue where it is stuck with the EJ Kai until F-15/16s come, that is historical. You should be incentivized to play a different country that would have a proper future line-up. Frankly, it's kinda your fault for grinding German air tree if you knew a little about history and also had known that Germany wouldn't be that fun to play going into the future.