Lockheed P-38G-1

[Taranok 3,920]

I discovered the biggest problem with the P-38G was the flaps.  While engine and performance differences can be big, it doesn't affect the essence of the lighning quite so much as what was wrong with the flaps.

 

Namely, the current P-38G in game uses Split Flaps.  While in reality it used Fowler Flaps.  The difference being that not only do fowler flaps rotate downwards, they also slide backwards, effectively increasing the wing area by about 14-15%. 

 

 

So not only should the lift be increased because of the use of flaps, but the base wing area should be increased while the flaps are deployed as well.  The difference in lift between no flaps and combat flaps will be huge.

 

The problem is ultimately if they were modeled in the code correctly.  I knew they were fowler flaps, just like the ki-43 had fowler flaps, but you can have a flap look like a giant brick wall spawns out of the bottom of a plane and it still behaves like a fowler flap if the code has it set up for the right drag/lift coefficient.  The Ki-43 recently had the in-game model redesigned so their flaps actually looked like fowlers, but I don't know if it changed the performance when that was adjusted.

 

Anyways...

 

 

well its possible.

15% of 276.3sq/ft is only 41.4sq/ft extra giving it 317.7sq/ft.

 

other websites however state that the wing area is 328.5sq/ft so i don't think so. probably just a typo.

 

This is important.  At 276.3 square feet, the plane has a wing loading of 215.58 kg/m² at empty and 280.96 kg/m² at max internal weight.  By comparison, at 328.5 ft², we get 181.33 kg/m² empty and 236.32 kg/m² wing loading at max internal weight.

 

While wing loading isn't everything, and the surface area thrust of having 2 props blow over the critical lift surfaces of the plane would definitely help, that is a massive difference in wing loading if the number is wrong.  Hell, as the plane approaches empty, it starts to approach parity with loaded interceptors, if not superseding them outright.

 

Given the plane's forgiving stall characteristics, having a massive amount of thrust for the weight (just compare it to even a P-47D's horsepower and thrust for the wing area the thrust directly moves over) that average-good wing loading for what it is and the giant elevator that you can honestly use as a cot for 2 people, I can easily see how the P-38 can turn inside 109s and 190s in anecdotal stories.

 

The Fowler-type flaps are likely the key to the P-38's stealth maneuver, though.  Getting them right is imperative to the plane's status, nevermind the absolutely massive elevator that can pitch up 20 degrees.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Taranok

[Rumpullpus 3,883]

This is important.  At 276.3 square feet, the plane has a wing loading of 215.58 kg/m² at empty and 280.96 kg/m² at max internal weight.  By comparison, at 328.5 ft², we get 181.33 kg/m² empty and 236.32 kg/m² wing loading at max internal weight.

 

While wing loading isn't everything, and the surface area thrust of having 2 props blow over the critical lift surfaces of the plane would definitely help, that is a massive difference in wing loading if the number is wrong.  Hell, as the plane approaches empty, it starts to approach parity with loaded interceptors, if not superseding them outright.

 

Given the plane's forgiving stall characteristics, having a massive amount of thrust for the weight (just compare it to even a P-47D's horsepower and thrust for the wing area the thrust directly moves over) that average-good wing loading for what it is and the giant elevator that you can honestly use as a cot for 2 people, I can easily see how the P-38 can turn inside 109s and 190s in anecdotal stories.

 

The Fowler-type flaps are likely the key to the P-38's stealth maneuver, though.  Getting them right is imperative to the plane's status, nevermind the absolutely massive elevator that can pitch up 20 degrees.

it was just a typo left over from the F4U1 its been fixed now.

 

wing surface area of the P-38 with ailerons is 328.5sq/ft.

the fowler flaps surface area is 42.6sq/ft

 

this gives the P-38G with extended flaps a wing surface area of 371.1sq/ft

with a weight of 14,120lbs wing loading for the P-38G should be at 38lb/sq ft

[OldSchoolCool 151]

I don't think that the P-38 is underperforming but that it is a G model

u haven't used it much have you?

[Fuzzydragon 8]

Data sheet updated

any chance we could see this hot fixed into the game soon or is this more something we need to wait on a larger update for?

[Danneskjold 3,092]

any chance we could see this hot fixed into the game Soon™ or is this more something we need to wait on a larger update for?

 

These updated data sheets are just the Target Performance for the Flight Model.  The Modeler will still have to work at it to make it right, and with how complicated these flight models are, it ain't easy.

[Rumpullpus 3,883]

These updated data sheets are just the Target Performance for the Flight Model.  The Modeler will still have to work at it to make it right, and with how complicated these flight models are, it ain't easy.

not to mention they will have to redo the physical model as well because it doesn't have fowler flaps lol.

[Taranok 3,920]

The physical model is tangential to the flight model.  It needs to be fixed, along with the radiators being animated, but the plane can work just fine without fixing the the cosmetic model.

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

Went looking for some more information, on those Fowler flaps. While they may have up to a 35 degree range, it seems 8 degrees was standard for "combat maneuvers" [1] (Page 40, second to last paragraph).

[Rumpullpus 3,883]

Went looking for some more information, on those Fowler flaps. While they may have up to a 35 degree range, it seems 8 degrees was standard for "combat maneuvers" [1] (Page 40, second to last paragraph).

do to the nature of the fowler type design there is no need to boost the lift of the wing using an angle of attack. the fowler boosts it much more efficiently by increasing the wings surface area. 8 deg sounds likely the standard angle of attack for combat maneuvers while a full 35 deg was probably only used to slow the aircraft down for landing.

 

looks like gaijin's data says the combat maneuver flaps angle of attack is at 39 deg. which does seem a bit excessive. while landing flaps were at 78 deg.

did they get these numbers out of the manual i wonder?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Rumpullpus

[Danneskjold 3,092]

do to the nature of the fowler type design there is no need to boost the lift of the wing using an angle of attack. the fowler boosts it much more efficiently by increasing the wings surface area. 8 deg sounds likely the standard angle of attack for combat maneuvers while a full 35 deg was probably only used to slow the aircraft down for landing.

 

looks like gaijin's data says the combat maneuver flaps angle of attack is at 39 deg. which does seem a bit excessive. while landing flaps were at 78 deg.

did they get these numbers out of the manual i wonder?

 

Let me ask the guy who did the datasheet to check.

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

Everyplace I've looked seems to put the fowler at 8 degrees for 'combat maneuvers'.

 

 

From the P-38F-15 model onwards, a "combat maneuver" setting was added to the P-38's Fowler flaps. When deployed at the 8° maneuver setting, the flaps allowed the P-38 to out-turn many contemporary single-engined fighters at the cost of some added drag. [1]

 

Other places state the setting here at 8 degrees here.

 

And another quote...

 

On 8 Feb. James Morris of 20FG downed 3 FW-190s in a single combat, involving tight turns
(in which the P-38's maneuvering flap setting [8 degrees extension] was used) and an 
Me-109 as returning home, the first quadruple kill for an 8AF fighter.

 

That's from the following website: http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

Edited November 5, 2013 by Salen_Stormwing

[Taranok 3,920]

do to the nature of the fowler type design there is no need to boost the lift of the wing using an angle of attack. the fowler boosts it much more efficiently by increasing the wings surface area. 8 deg sounds likely the standard angle of attack for combat maneuvers while a full 35 deg was probably only used to slow the aircraft down for landing.

 

looks like gaijin's data says the combat maneuver flaps angle of attack is at 39 deg. which does seem a bit excessive. while landing flaps were at 78 deg.

did they get these numbers out of the manual i wonder?

Well, the 78 degrees landing flaps seem authentic, as shown here:

 

[spoiler][/spoiler]

 

I like how you can see a visible gap between the top of the flaps and the bottom of the wing from this angle, it came down pretty far.  It's hard to say where the flaps for combat actually would be.

 

For instance, there's 8 degrees, which puts it at, well, about this:

 

[spoiler][/spoiler]

 

But that's assuming that's how the P-38 flaps actually worked.  The real problem is the documentation that the flaps could be manually stopped at anywhere between fully retracted and fully extended in addition to the built in stopping points.  How far extended were the flaps in the maneuver setting?  It's a rather important question.

 

I mean, is this the "combat" setting here?

 

[spoiler][/spoiler]

 

It's so hard to tell since it's such a specific question to ask exactly where it was.

 

The only logical question is:  Were there multiple combat settings, and where exactly was it sourced at 39 degrees?  There's no doubt it could hit that degree, but was that the combat setting?

[Danneskjold 3,092]

Sign up here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-38-manual-28630.html for the P-38 Pilot's Manual, and other many fun manuals.

 

 

I just checked, and it is pretty interesting.  Maneuver Flaps are called Combat Flaps, and are referenced as about half down.  However, it did say that the pilot could stop the motion of the Flaps by hitting the "Closed" setting.  Now at which angle, if it's fully back or not, is not fully explained.  Just that they could set any angle they wished from Up to Maneuver, by locking it on closed.  Though since the pilot couldn't actually see the flaps at all, how would he know what angle they were set?

[Rumpullpus 3,883]

Sign up here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-38-manual-28630.html for the P-38 Pilot's Manual, and other many fun manuals.

 

 

I just checked, and it is pretty interesting.  Maneuver Flaps are called Combat Flaps, and are referenced as about half down.  However, it did say that the pilot could stop the motion of the Flaps by hitting the "Closed" setting.  Now at which angle, if it's fully back or not, is not fully explained.  Just that they could set any angle they wished from Up to Maneuver, by locking it on closed.  Though since the pilot couldn't actually see the flaps at all, how would he know what angle they were set?

well i know there should be a visual dial of a silhouette of the aircraft that shows the position of the gear and flaps i think. maybe there?

 

with enough experience the pilot can probably know just by feeling the aircraft.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rumpullpus

[Taranok 3,920]

Sign up here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-38-manual-28630.html for the P-38 Pilot's Manual, and other many fun manuals.

 

 

I just checked, and it is pretty interesting.  Maneuver Flaps are called Combat Flaps, and are referenced as about half down.  However, it did say that the pilot could stop the motion of the Flaps by hitting the "Closed" setting.  Now at which angle, if it's fully back or not, is not fully explained.  Just that they could set any angle they wished from Up to Maneuver, by locking it on closed.  Though since the pilot couldn't actually see the flaps at all, how would he know what angle they were set?

 

I imagine the cockpit gauge showing what angle the flaps were at would help.  You can visibly see it in the cockpit if you look around (same gauge as the landing gear up/down indicator).

 

Looks like Rumpullpus beat me to it, sooo...here's the gauge in image form.

Flaps Up

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Flaps Down

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Edited November 6, 2013 by Taranok

[Danneskjold 3,092]

I imagine the cockpit gauge showing what angle the flaps were at would help.  You can visibly see it in the cockpit if you look around (same gauge as the landing gear up/down indicator).

 

Looks like Rumpullpus beat me to it, sooo...here's the gauge in image form.

Flaps Up

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Flaps Down

[spoiler][/spoiler]

 

And as it stands, it looks like the angles are Up, Combat - 15 degrees, Take Off - 30 Degrees, Landing at 60 Degrees.

[Taranok 3,920]

I wouldn't take the gauge as accurate considering the FM is demonstrably broken at the present, nor is it necessarily 100% accurate to what angle the flaps are actually at, but instead are a relative position.  "At this position, the flaps are 40% of fully deployed, which means they're down 20 degrees."  That kind of thing, even though those numbers are arbitrary.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Taranok

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

Sign up here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/p-38-manual-28630.html for the P-38 Pilot's Manual, and other many fun manuals.

 

 

I just checked, and it is pretty interesting.  Maneuver Flaps are called Combat Flaps, and are referenced as about half down.  However, it did say that the pilot could stop the motion of the Flaps by hitting the "Closed" setting.  Now at which angle, if it's fully back or not, is not fully explained.  Just that they could set any angle they wished from Up to Maneuver, by locking it on closed.  Though since the pilot couldn't actually see the flaps at all, how would he know what angle they were set?

 

Considering it says "Using up to 1/2 flaps increases the wing area and provides greater lift." (Page 50 Pilot Training Manual), it would seem that placing the flaps anywhere between 1 degree to 1/2 of flaps. But... it's odd, how it's worded. Still, every place I've managed to find that isn't in a technical manual says 8 degrees... so... that has to come from somewhere. But yeah, I guess up to 1/2 fowler flaps, everything's easy peasy.

[Danneskjold 3,092]

Considering it says "Using up to 1/2 flaps increases the wing area and provides greater lift." (Page 50 Pilot Training Manual), it would seem that placing the flaps anywhere between 1 degree to 1/2 of flaps. But... it's odd, how it's worded. Still, every place I've managed to find that isn't in a technical manual says 8 degrees... so... that has to come from somewhere. But yeah, I guess up to 1/2 fowler flaps, everything's easy peasy.

 

When I flew the P-38G before they really broke it, I'd use up to Take-Off flaps, about 30 degrees, for superb turning ability.

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

When I flew the P-38G before they really broke it, I'd use up to Take-Off flaps, about 30 degrees, for superb turning ability.

 

That phrase, "before they really broke it", does not instill a lot of confidence in me. But I'm still curious where this 8 degrees everyone seems to be mentioning is coming from. Been combing through any technical information I can find with no luck. I'm going to go Google the hell out of those flaps...

 

On the plus side, it's nice to know the flaps DID work well at one point.

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

It's amazing what you can find from RC Modelers of all things. Here's a diagram that has some pretty nice layout of the fowler in various positions.

 

 

From this forum post on an RC Forum [1].

 

The best I can do is track down the fowlers being added to the P-38F-15, and... that's about it. I suppose until we can find out if it's either 1/2 fowler flap or 8 degrees... I'm done for now. If only I could find information on those flap controls for the P-38.

[Taranok 3,920]

It's amazing what you can find from RC Modelers of all things. Here's a diagram that has some pretty nice layout of the fowler in various positions.

 

 

From this forum post on an RC Forum [1].

 

The best I can do is track down the fowlers being added to the P-38F-15, and... that's about it. I suppose until we can find out if it's either 1/2 fowler flap or 8 degrees... I'm done for now. If only I could find information on those flap controls for the P-38.

 

The fowlers were on every model of the P-38.  The F-15 is when a combat/maneuver setting was added to the flaps.  We've been over this.  Either way, that technical diagram is very interesting, since it shows the maneuver/combat setting as being about half-deployed fowler flaps, which would certainly increase the wing area not inconsiderably by (approximating) half the surface area of the flap itself, which would definitely help with wing loading.  Nevermind the extra lift it'd generate.

 

But, that's from an RC forum, so its validity is somewhat suspect without a more concrete source, I fear.  However, it seems to match what Gaijin posted, so maybe it's likely true!

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

Holy dook, I think I actually found some blueprints of the P-38! I honestly wish this was a bit bigger in size, since the image is pretty small for what would probably be a 24"x36" sheet... but it has more than enough data for folks.

 

Side note, this is a P-38L-5-LO. It shouldn't make a huge difference, since what we're looking for is fowler flaps and what not. Anyways, I have both the TOP and the SIDE views of the aircraft.

 

 

Note, that piece I pointed out earlier in this discussion is ACTUALLY from this full-blown blueprint of the P-38. So yeah... It wasn't an RC Model after all, but from an actual blueprint. Heck, this thing even shows how far the shocks will move on the tires. Huh. Sorry about the image size, but... here they are.

 

But yes, "Maneuver" settings for the fowlers is 20 degrees according to one of the sheets, with "Landing" being 39 degrees.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Salen_Stormwing

[Rapitor 10,702]

Well if those are blueprints, according to engineering norms, thie angles of the fowler flaps should be respected. So we can measure them and identifiy the angle for each setup.

 

<3 engineering norms

[Salen_Stormwing 737]

Well if those are blueprints, according to engineering norms, thie angles of the fowler flaps should be respected. So we can measure them and identifiy the angle for each setup.

 

<3 engineering norms

 

No need to measure them. Just look on the second sheet, top lefthand corner. Flap settings for both maneuvering and landing positions. Pretty sure it's 20 degrees and 39 degrees, respectively. It even has the elevator information in there too, as well as position shiftability for trim tabs.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Salen_Stormwing