Fix the TOR (Issues with TOR listed)

[PLA_31677 14]

Although I do not know the stats in real world for the new TOR spaa, It definitely should not look like what's been in the game for one week. It suppose to be more modernized and more dangerous to enemy's aircraft which indeed it obviously not. What looks like to me is that the missile it has is less efficient than VT1, combining with no thermal and other bugs, it is just unplayable right now. Please fix it and stop being bias, I would believe it be a much stronger vehicle if it is added in Russia tech tree. The problems have been annoying me can be briefly listed as following:

1. Too much tail smoke for the missile and not able to see target after firing.

2. The trajectory of the missile is so weird.

3. The G load should be higher, don't think a 11.0 top tier spaa would has less than 20g ground to air missile. (compare to spaas in other nations and even some helis self defense aa missile has better g load).

4. The efficient missile range is obviously shorter than it should be.

 

Glad to see any comment on real stats and other opinions, and please vote up if it appears same problems with you, thanks.

 

[地表最强地狱猫车长 73]

In many of the files we can see, 9m331 is 30G overload

Edited November 3, 2022 by armos19861

[Arcadia_Nyx 811]

I used to play ItO and frankly I think Tor has a very tough performance.
The radar is great, but the missiles are far too weak for 11.0.
I am currently going to look for literature to improve the performance of the missiles.

On the other hand, as for NVDs, etc., you probably can't count on that. Probably because Tor never needed them in the first place. I did a quick search and couldn't find any documentation of NVDs on the gunner's scope.

[Arcadia_Nyx 811]

After that I scoured Google and found several references stating that the maximum load on some 9M331s is 30G, but at the same time I also found references stating that it is 16G, the same as in the game. Which is correct?
I think I need to look deeper into this.

[PLA_31677 14]

7 hours ago, Alpine_Lynx said:

After that I scoured Google and found several references stating that the maximum load on some 9M331s is 30G, but at the same time I also found references stating that it is 16G, the same as in the game. Which is correct?
I think I need to look deeper into this.

 

Thank you, I also looked into some of the files I think the problem is on the missile variances, which there's the 9M330 and 9M331although several sources stated differently, I believe the 16G is for 9M330 and 30G is for 9M331.

[Arcadia_Nyx 811]

OK, I am ready to write a report showing that 9M331 is 30G.
I have 3 secondary references for now, does anyone have any other leading references? The more references the better.

[David Bowie 1,554]

9M331's 16g maximum G overload is not a bug. According to ЗЕНИТНЫЙ РАКЕТНЫЙ КОМПЛЕКС "TOP-M1", 9M331has 16g maximum G overload.

 

Spoiler

 

[PLA_31677 14]

2 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said:

9M331's 16g maximum G overload is not a bug. According to ЗЕНИТНЫЙ РАКЕТНЫЙ КОМПЛЕКС "TOP-M1", 9M331has 16g maximum G overload.

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

This is really helpful, does this manual say anything about the thermal.

And besides, gaijin should reduce the missile tail smoke for sure, I can not see the targets after firing without a radar lock on.

 

[Smoak741 1,140]

On 07/11/2022 at 20:13, Alpine_Lynx said:

OK, I am ready to write a report showing that 9M331 is 30G.
I have 3 secondary references for now, does anyone have any other leading references? The more references the better.

you have been Dawid_Bowied

tor m1 study guide

https://library.voenmeh.ru/cnau/09ZffWX1yllVMet.pdf

Edited November 10, 2022 by Smoak741

[David Bowie 1,554]

7 hours ago, Smoak741 said:

you have been Dawid_Bowied

And i have been Smoak741ed

[blmghbr 38]

14 hours ago, _David_Bowie_ said:

9M331's 16g maximum G overload is not a bug. According to ЗЕНИТНЫЙ РАКЕТНЫЙ КОМПЛЕКС "TOP-M1", 9M331has 16g maximum G overload.

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

But in reality, the developers did not follow the charge of 9M331 in this manual. 5.3kg in the game vs 14.8kg in the manual.

 

 

 

There also seem to be some problems with VT fuze triggering. In the actual game, the missile made many close approaches to the target without detonating. It's best to have the developer check it out.

 

In addition, Because the 16G overloaded missile is really difficult to hit the maneuvering aircraft. So its air defense efficiency at 11.0 is a big flaw. if it proves that the combat capabilities of Tor M1 cannot currently be compared with other SPAAs of the same level, then its rate should be reduced, or a more suitable retrofit or vehicle (such as HQ17)

Edited November 11, 2022 by blmghbr

[David Bowie 1,554]

3 hours ago, blmghbr said:

But in reality, the developers did not follow the charge of 9M331 in this manual. 5.3kg in the game vs 14.8kg in the manual.

14.8 kg is the total weight of the warhead, the weight in the game is the weight of the explosives in the warhead.

[blmghbr 38]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:27, _David_Bowie_ said:

14.8 kg is the total weight of the warhead, the weight in the game is the weight of the explosives in the warhead.

Oh, this was my oversight.

 

 

Just now, blmghbr said:

Oh, this was my oversight.

 

 

Also, I remember in the DEV livestream, the developer mentioned Tor's radar vertical enhancement. It can scan to higher angle targets. In addition, in the live broadcast, the thermal imaging system was also mentioned. Tor doesn't seem to implement these things at the moment. Coupled with the weaker properties of the missile itself, I think its performance is difficult to compare with other BR 11.0 SPAAs.

Edited November 13, 2022 by blmghbr

[David Bowie 1,554]

2 hours ago, blmghbr said:

Also, I remember in the DEV livestream, the developer mentioned Tor's radar vertical enhancement. It can scan to higher angle targets. In addition, in the live broadcast, the thermal imaging system was also mentioned. Tor doesn't seem to implement these things at the moment. Coupled with the weaker properties of the missile itself, I think its performance is difficult to compare with other BR 11.0 SPAAs.

I've never seen source that the Tor M1's TV camera has Thermal.

 

Better high-altitude performance of radar has already been implemented.  It can be seen that there is already a better beam angle compared to SPAA in other countries.

[blmghbr 38]

31 minutes ago, _David_Bowie_ said:

我从未见过 Tor M1 的电视摄像机具有热敏的消息来源。

 

雷达已经实现了更好的高空性能。可以看出，与其他国家的SPAA相比，已经有更好的光束角。

I noticed this, its search radar is 360x32°. This is second only to the 360x35° of the ITO90M. But I would like to know, what is this 64 degree detection angle in the manual? Could it be implemented as a larger range for search radar?

 

 

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

1 minute ago, blmghbr said:

But I would like to know, what is this 64 degree detection angle in the manual? Could it be implemented as a larger range for search radar?

Its a search mode that searches from +32° to +64°. So still a total angle of 32°, but angled upwards. From my understanding the idea was that two TOR operating together could double their combined detection angle

[blmghbr 38]

20 minutes ago, blmghbr said:

我注意到了这一点，它的搜索雷达是 360x32°。这仅次于ITO90M的360x35°。但是我想知道，手册中的这个64度检测角度是什么？它可以作为搜索雷达的更大范围实现吗？

 

 

In addition, too much smoke from the missile is a problem.

16 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Its a search mode that searches from +32° to +64°. So still a total angle of 32°, but angled upwards. From my understanding the idea was that two TOR operating together could double their combined detection angle

Maybe, I'm not familiar with Russian. Relying on the translation software I can only be sure that it is indeed capable of this angle (64°). Maybe I'm missing something.

[Snakes21_Scar 9]

On 2022/11/10 at PM6点17分, _David_Bowie_ said:

9M331 的 16g 最大 G 过载不是错误。 根据 ЗЕНИТНЫЙ РАКЕТНЫЙ КОМПЛЕКС "TOP-M1" 的说法，9M331 具有 16g 的最大 G 过载。

 

显示隐藏内容

 

But the“поперечная перегрузка”in English is "Radial overload"or“Transverse overload”,It`s NOT "Available overload".The "Available overload"="Maximum overload",The "Radial"or "Taransverse"is a part of "Available overload"(other part such as axial overload).The VT-1 missile`s Overload is "Available overload 35G".in fact,The 9M331`s Transverse overload smaller than 16G in Warthunder.maybe,it`s only 10G in used.

[David Bowie 1,554]

12 minutes ago, Snakes21_Scar said:

But the“поперечная перегрузка”in English is "Radial overload"or“Transverse overload”,It`s NOT "Available overload".The "Available overload"="Maximum overload",The "Radial"or "Taransverse"is a part of "Available overload"(other part such as axial overload).

"Максимальная располагаемая поперечная перегрузка" = Maximum G overload in single plane

There is nothing problem, missiles maximum G overloads in game are based on overload in single plane only.

 

12 minutes ago, Snakes21_Scar said:

The VT-1 missile`s Overload is "Available overload 35G".

According to sources, VT-1 missile's maximum G overload in single plane is 35g. 

Please write a report if you have additional rebuttal sources.

 

12 minutes ago, Snakes21_Scar said:

in fact,The 9M331`s Transverse overload smaller than 16G in Warthunder.

maybe,it`s only 10G in used.

claims without any evidence

[David Bowie 1,554]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:25 PM, blmghbr said:

I noticed this, its search radar is 360x32°. This is second only to the 360x35° of the ITO90M. But I would like to know, what is this 64 degree detection angle in the manual? Could it be implemented as a larger range for search radar?

On 11/13/2022 at 9:30 PM, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

Its a search mode that searches from +32° to +64°. So still a total angle of 32°, but angled upwards. From my understanding the idea was that two TOR operating together could double their combined detection angle

 

search angle of the radar has two modes, 0~32° and 32°~64°, and both modes cannot be used at the same time.

[ТhеКомгаdе 864]

On 03/11/2022 at 18:35, Alpine_Lynx said:

I used to play ItO and frankly I think Tor has a very tough performance.
The radar is great, but the missiles are far too weak for 11.0.
I am currently going to look for literature to improve the performance of the missiles.

On the other hand, as for NVDs, etc., you probably can't count on that. Probably because Tor never needed them in the first place. I did a quick search and couldn't find any documentation of NVDs on the gunner's scope.

 

Same thoughts here, I play ItO regularly and even so Tor M1 has superior radar it's downgrade from Ito. Poor missiles of 16g and no thermals. Anyone can just out manouver the missile at top tier

Edited November 22, 2022 by TheKomrade

[llSolitairell@psn 5,730]

Have they nerfed it's radar? It used to be quite reliable, almost (but not really) IRST level which was this things only saving grace. Now it's like a Gepard/ZSU-23-4 radar throwing your aim into the ground if the target flies at or below 100m and the radar "sway" of a locked target is insane now.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

10 hours ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

Have they nerfed it's radar? It used to be quite reliable, almost (but not really) IRST level which was this things only saving grace. Now it's like a Gepard/ZSU-23-4 radar throwing your aim into the ground if the target flies at or below 100m and the radar "sway" of a locked target is insane now.

According to the datamine the radar hasnt been changed in the last 25 days. Compared to say Gepard it still is more accurate (0.036 to 0.06 angular accuracy)

 

But uh, shouldnt the TOR have a C-Scope in addition to the PPI as the search radar is a 3D radar that can also detect elevation?

This what this diagram also shows, the radar uses 8 stacked beams of 4° each

On 13/11/2022 at 13:25, blmghbr said:

[cortbowan@psn 225]

They nerfed the IRST though. 

This is my observation based on the FlaRakPz 1. 

 

The IRST lock gets lost mid flight or locks onto your own missile, sometimes it also wanders off target, even though the target is moving towards you and not using any flares. 

 

My guess(!) is that this is done to increase the usage of radar and therefore give planes at high tier a better survivability through RWR activation. 

The fact that the good missile SPAA's have been uptiered to 10.3 and that IRST had distance and movement indicator removed points in this direction. 

Apperently that still wasn't enough, so IRST got nerfed further. 

 

Would be great if anyone else has seen this issue.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

IRST misbehaving is somewhat old in my experience. It switching locks already happened many months ago. The only new nerf was the removal of distance from optical tracking without LRF like seen on Roland or Tor.