In the Future - Gripen E, Rafale C, Eurofighter Typhoon

[VanguardX2 166]

Just for fun.  I know it will be awhile (possibly a year or even two), but how do you think these 3 fighters will stack up in game in the future?  Do you see them as almost identical capability-wise in game or do you see one as being appreciably ahead of the others? 

 

Thanks!

[oom1992 649]

Personal I guess that's possibility that developer might consider start could add Gripen A after JA37D in Q3 or Q4 this year, for Eurofighter Typhoon start DA2 (UK), DA5  (Germany) & DA7 (Italy) coming to 2024

 

Gripen E add under Gripen C MS.20 standard but not coming to sweden tech tree in rank 9 until Q3 or Q4 2025, part of Rafale C & M F1 guess  coming to Q4 2025 place under Mirage 2000-5/Mirage 2000-5F and F-8P & Rafale M LF.1

Edited January 18, 2023 by oom1992

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

49 minutes ago, oom1992 said:

Eurofighter Typhoon start DA2 (UK)

no. it had no countermeasures and no rwr

your timeline is a bit weird imo.

Gripen A could be added in Q1 or Q2(with only 9Ls and Skyflash tho idk if it really had those) and Q3 and Q4 2025 sounds a little ridiculous conidering how fast the game is moving at the moment

 

1 hour ago, VanguardX2 said:

Just for fun.  I know it will be awhile (possibly a year or even two), but how do you think these 3 fighters will stack up in game in the future?  Do you see them as almost identical capability-wise in game or do you see one as being appreciably ahead of the others? 

 

Thanks!

to comment on this myself:

The only aircraft that is somewhat "identical" capability wise would be the Gripen A but anything else is better

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Faster_Boiiiii

[VanguardX2 166]

Not really where I meant for this discussion to go (where and how these most modern variants would be added into game), but still a fun discussion to think about.

 

My original intent was to discuss how these most modern variants (Gripen E, Rafale C (or M if you wish for a carrier based option), and Eurofighter Typhoon) will stack up given the mechanics of War Thunder.  From the limited information I have been able to find via online sources of various pedigrees, it seems like the Rafale and Eurofighter are quite close in capability with the Gripen E "catching up", if you will, from its original variant to be a more viable competitor for military sales on the international market.  

 

Without possessing first hand knowledge or in-depth documents that would most likely be classified or at the very least distribution restricted, it seems difficult to me to draw great distinctions between these fighters in game, but I was wondering if folks had differing opinions on that.  If it is so hard to get hard facts at a publicly available level on these jets, how will Gaijin "fill in the gaps" and will it lead to further balancing challenges in game such as the F-16 and MiG 29 seem to be experiencing?  How will these 3 unique and fascinating jets come into the game from that standpoint and will they stand out in any way from one another or become near clones with different looks?  I cannot even fathom the thrash that a F-35 Lightning II could cause...that thing would have to be based on mostly myth and conjecture if it came into the game.

 

If everyone would rather discuss when and where the first variants could enter the game and tech trees, we could probably make another thread for that too or keep discussing it here I guess.  

[DirectSupport 938]

No offense, as much as I like the beautiful Gripen, it's in no way close to the Eurofighter and Rafale. It's already being bested by the F-16V. 

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

I assume you meant the AESA equipped variants, in which case I would argue Gripen and Typhoon are superior in radar. Rafale has a static AESA (which are physically limited to around ±60° before interference makes them no longer usable) while the other two have their AESA on a moving mount, giving them a much wider field of view. The CAPTOR-E on the Typhoon is capable of ±100°, meaning it can keep a lock while beaming/notching or even flying away.

 

Additionally (correct me if I'm wrong) the Rafale doesnt appear to have many hardpoints usable for anti-air stuff. From what I could find, it has 6 pylons (2 centerline, wing tips and outer wings) only capable of carrying MICA and only 4 capable of carrying Meteor as well (fuselage sides and middle wing). Inner wing can only carry fuel tanks or air to ground ordinance.

In comparison, the Gripen can carry 2 IRIS-T, 3 Meteor (or 2 if you need a fuel tank) and then 4 pylons that can each take either another IRIS-T or two Meteor. The maximum loadout here is 11 Meteor and 2 IRIS-T

And Typhoon is even more crazy. It has two dedicated IRIS-T and 4 dedicated Meteor hardpoints, but then it has 6 more pylons, 4 of which can take two Meteors each and the other two either one Meteor or two IRIS-T, giving a grand total of 12 Meteor and 6 IRIS-T while still carrying a fuel tank

 

Of course MICA is longer ranged than IRIS-T, being somewhat of a BVR missile, but its great manouverability only works while the booster is running, so at long ranges I would expect it to perform much worse. Additionally the long range stealth IR factor is great (as one can see with the R-24/27 T already ingame, which dont even have the flare rejection of IIR seekers), but it still requires one to get into range to use them.

On the other hand, IRIS-T on the Typhoon (I dont know if the Gripen E has that capability) has the capability of getting cued onto missiles by the planes MAWS and then shoot those missiles down.

 

So in all, I would actually rank the Rafale the lowest because of its lowest missile count and weakest defence potential, then the Gripen E and very closely on top the Eurofighter

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

1 hour ago, VanguardX2 said:

Not really where I meant for this discussion to go (where and how these most modern variants would be added into game), but still a fun discussion to think about.

 

My original intent was to discuss how these most modern variants (Gripen E, Rafale C (or M if you wish for a carrier based option), and Eurofighter Typhoon) will stack up given the mechanics of War Thunder.  From the limited information I have been able to find via online sources of various pedigrees, it seems like the Rafale and Eurofighter are quite close in capability with the Gripen E "catching up", if you will, from its original variant to be a more viable competitor for military sales on the international market.  

 

Without possessing first hand knowledge or in-depth documents that would most likely be classified or at the very least distribution restricted, it seems difficult to me to draw great distinctions between these fighters in game, but I was wondering if folks had differing opinions on that.  If it is so hard to get hard facts at a publicly available level on these jets, how will Gaijin "fill in the gaps" and will it lead to further balancing challenges in game such as the F-16 and MiG 29 seem to be experiencing?  How will these 3 unique and fascinating jets come into the game from that standpoint and will they stand out in any way from one another or become near clones with different looks?  I cannot even fathom the thrash that a F-35 Lightning II could cause...that thing would have to be based on mostly myth and conjecture if it came into the game.

 

If everyone would rather discuss when and where the first variants could enter the game and tech trees, we could probably make another thread for that too or keep discussing it here I guess.  

the late variants would be quite powerful. All 3 would carry Meteors(no escape zone is said to be about as large as the regular maps that we have right now) and have very strong, but different, flight performance.

All 3 would have AESA radars and carry very potent short range IR missiles. All 3 would also have a very strong avionics suite(Jammers, MWS, datalink, etc).

One could argue that the Gripen would be the weakest due to its lower speed, smaller max payload options, etc but then it would also be carrying 7 meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts alongside a powerful radar and excellent ECM...

 

  @DirectSupport i kinda agree. its the smallest of the bunch with all of the disadvantages that come with that...

 

Personally I'd put my money on the Eurofighter, especially in the BVR department(i mean... it could carry 14 meteors and 2 SRAAMs and a fuel tank, granted that it gets twin/double rails) but any of the 3 will be very competitive against gen 4s and late gen 4s

[VanguardX2 166]

Thank you...I agree that all 3 will be very strong.  Honestly the maps and some other gameplay features may have to evolve quite a bit to allow these aircraft to enter the game.  I love all 3 aircraft, the only thing that should not be argued is that the Rafale is the most beautiful

[CalleSkauning 82]

2 hours ago, Faster_Boiiiii said:

with only 9Ls and Skyflash tho idk if it really had those

It did carry them

Edited January 18, 2023 by CalleSkauning

[Adr_Farling 265]

27 minutes ago, VanguardX2 said:

the only thing that should not be argued is that the Rafale is the most beautiful

This is my honest reaction.

(I‘m absolutely not biased towards any aircraft)

Edited January 18, 2023 by Adr_Farling

[DirectSupport 938]

48 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

I assume you meant the AESA equipped variants, in which case I would argue Gripen and Typhoon are superior in radar. Rafale has a static AESA (which are physically limited to around ±60° before interference makes them no longer usable) while the other two have their AESA on a moving mount, giving them a much wider field of view. The CAPTOR-E on the Typhoon is capable of ±100°, meaning it can keep a lock while beaming/notching or even flying away.

 

Additionally (correct me if I'm wrong) the Rafale doesnt appear to have many hardpoints usable for anti-air stuff. From what I could find, it has 6 pylons (2 centerline, wing tips and outer wings) only capable of carrying MICA and only 4 capable of carrying Meteor as well (fuselage sides and middle wing). Inner wing can only carry fuel tanks or air to ground ordinance.

In comparison, the Gripen can carry 2 IRIS-T, 3 Meteor (or 2 if you need a fuel tank) and then 4 pylons that can each take either another IRIS-T or two Meteor. The maximum loadout here is 11 Meteor and 2 IRIS-T

And Typhoon is even more crazy. It has two dedicated IRIS-T and 4 dedicated Meteor hardpoints, but then it has 6 more pylons, 4 of which can take two Meteors each and the other two either one Meteor or two IRIS-T, giving a grand total of 12 Meteor and 6 IRIS-T while still carrying a fuel tank

 

Of course MICA is longer ranged than IRIS-T, being somewhat of a BVR missile, but its great manouverability only works while the booster is running, so at long ranges I would expect it to perform much worse. Additionally the long range stealth IR factor is great (as one can see with the R-24/27 T already ingame, which dont even have the flare rejection of IIR seekers), but it still requires one to get into range to use them.

On the other hand, IRIS-T on the Typhoon (I dont know if the Gripen E has that capability) has the capability of getting cued onto missiles by the planes MAWS and then shoot those missiles down.

 

So in all, I would actually rank the Rafale the lowest because of its lowest missile count and weakest defence potential, then the Gripen E and very closely on top the Eurofighter

 

46 minutes ago, Faster_Boiiiii said:

the late variants would be quite powerful. All 3 would carry Meteors(no escape zone is said to be about as large as the regular maps that we have right now) and have very strong, but different, flight performance.

All 3 would have AESA radars and carry very potent short range IR missiles. All 3 would also have a very strong avionics suite(Jammers, MWS, datalink, etc).

One could argue that the Gripen would be the weakest due to its lower speed, smaller max payload options, etc but then it would also be carrying 7 meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts alongside a powerful radar and excellent ECM...

 

  @DirectSupport i kinda agree. its the smallest of the bunch with all of the disadvantages that come with that...

 

Personally I'd put my money on the Eurofighter, especially in the BVR department(i mean... it could carry 14 meteors and 2 SRAAMs and a fuel tank, granted that it gets twin/double rails) but any of the 3 will be very competitive against gen 4s and late gen 4s

 

I will provide a source for my claims, but there's a couple things we need to clear up here. 

 

 

1. The Rafale's AESA radar can have a field of view of 140 degrees. 

2. The Rafale's and Typhoon's stealth characteristics are arguably the best with both planes having reduced RCS due to geometry, radar absorbent materials, and etc.The Rafale also has heat signatures that were reduced, and engines had its magnetic and infrared signatures reduced. Gripen lacks any of these features. 

 

3. The Rafale and Typhoon both have powerful optronics which can observe and track aerial targets, with their radars shut off to cut off radar emissions. Rafale's IRST can track and target a hostile aircraft at 100km away.

 

4. While Typhoon and Gripen can carry more Meteors, the Rafale in addition to the Meteor missiles, can carry and use MICA missiles. There are MICA NG missiles which come in the option of IR or EM variant. The MICA NGs are a 110km BVR missiles. The IR variant can be guided in on targets with either IRST or TWS for BVR combat. Iris-T missile is still a WVR short-range missile. Also, Rafale can carry 8 missiles, not 6. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by DirectSupport

[DirectSupport 938]

55 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

but its great manouverability only works while the booster is running,

The MICA NG has a dual pulse motor, where the first booster gets it going to a very long range, like 50km, and at the end of its flight when its close to the target, the second booster turns on and the thrust vectoring works again and utilizes its 50G maneuverability. Keep in mind, the MICA NG is stated to have a 110km range. 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by DirectSupport

[Adr_Farling 265]

7 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

3. The Rafale and Typhoon both have powerful optronics which can observe and track aerial targets, with their radars shut off to cut off radar emissions. Rafale's IRST can track and target a hostile aircraft at 100km away.

Gripen also has IRST

[DirectSupport 938]

Just now, Adr_Farling said:

Gripen also has IRST

Wasn't it only a specific variant? Also, would you know the claimed range of it?

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

4 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

1. The Rafale's AESA radar can have a field of view of 140 degrees. 

wow, that is more than I expected a fixed array to do. Still much less than either the Typhoon or Gripen E who both have 200 degrees

10 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

Iris-T missile is still a WVR short-range missile.

I wouldnt claim otherwise. MICA to me seems more like a very impressive BVR missile with good WVR capabilities. IRIS-T doesnt have any BVR capabilities, but its hardkill function would probably be incredibly useful in any ingame combat.

13 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

Also, Rafale can carry 8 missiles, not 6. 

I found 10, 6 MICA + 4 MICA/Meteor.

 

Also the MICA NG seems pretty impressive

[Adr_Farling 265]

13 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

Wasn't it only a specific variant? Also, would you know the claimed range of it?

All the modernised E models are equipped with the skyward G-IRST.

Its range is most probably classified, but its gonna be pretty high, since its a highly modern system and SAAB likes to show how superior their sensor are.

21 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

MICA NG

Correct me if I‘m wrong, but isn‘t the MICA NG still not in real service?

If yes, I don‘t think Gaijin would add a missile being still in development / testing phase.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Adr_Farling

[DirectSupport 938]

7 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

24 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

 

wow, that is more than I expected a fixed array to do. Still much less than either the Typhoon or Gripen E who both have 200 degrees

If they model the SPECTRA Suite on the Rafale correctly, it should provide plenty enough situational awareness, similar to that on the F-35, and should hopefully mitigate the disadvantages. 

 

7 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

found 10, 6 MICA + 4 MICA/Meteor.

 

Also the MICA NG seems pretty impressive

Consider me corrected. 

 

6 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

Correct me if I‘m wrong, but isn‘t the MICA NG still not in real service?

If yes, I don‘t think Gaijin would add a missile being still in development / testing phase.

IIRC, it has been "tested", and that's been good enough when it comes to missiles on some occasions for Gaijin. But either way, MICA NG isn't even needed. While MICA NG is 110km, the regular MICA is 80km, and both the MICA-IR and MICA-EM are able to loft to gain extra range. 

 

 

[MaMoran20@psn 198]

Not at all. No real info on performance, aeordynamics or weapon systems. If you want made up planes out of thin air a with a skin that just looks and has the same name then perhaps

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

53 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

 

 

I will provide a source for my claims, but there's a couple things we need to clear up here. 

 

 

1. The Rafale's AESA radar can have a field of view of 140 degrees. 

2. The Rafale's and Typhoon's stealth characteristics are arguably the best with both planes having reduced RCS due to geometry, radar absorbent materials, and etc.The Rafale also has heat signatures that were reduced, and engines had its magnetic and infrared signatures reduced. Gripen lacks any of these features. 

 

3. The Rafale and Typhoon both have powerful optronics which can observe and track aerial targets, with their radars shut off to cut off radar emissions. Rafale's IRST can track and target a hostile aircraft at 100km away.

 

4. While Typhoon and Gripen can carry more Meteors, the Rafale in addition to the Meteor missiles, can carry and use MICA missiles. There are MICA NG missiles which come in the option of IR or EM variant. The MICA NGs are a 110km BVR missiles. The IR variant can be guided in on targets with either IRST or TWS for BVR combat. Iris-T missile is still a WVR short-range missile. Also, Rafale can carry 8 missiles, not 6. 

 

 

140° in total... according to Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH the Captor-E does over 180° total or >90° to both sides

the stealth characteristics are going to be really interesting. the Eurofighter is some 3/4 composites in addition to RAM coatings, S-shaped air intakes and things like gun covers. there's obviously not a lot about this but its said to be really small with the requirement being that the RCS should not be greater than 1/4th of the Tornado's RCS.

 

i dont quite see the advantage of having a MICA NG tho... the IR, yes sure but the NG is kinda just a more maneuverable AIM-120...

[DirectSupport 938]

Just now, Faster_Boiiiii said:

140° in total... according to Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH the Captor-E does over 180° total or >90° to both sides

the stealth characteristics are going to be really interesting. the Eurofighter is some 3/4 composites in addition to RAM coatings, S-shaped air intakes and things like gun covers. there's obviously not a lot about this but its said to be really small with the requirement being that the RCS should not be greater than 1/4th of the Tornado's RCS.

 

i dont quite see the advantage of having a MICA NG tho... the IR, yes sure but the NG is kinda just a more maneuverable AIM-120...

There' s MICA IR, and then there's MICA NG IR.

MICA IR  = IR variant (80km)
MICA EM = Radar fox 3 variant (80km)

MICA NG IR = Longer range IR variant (110km)

MICA NG EM = Longer range fox 3 variant. (110km)

 

NG = New Generation. These are longer range newer missiles. MICA NG EM has AESA seeker. MICA NG IR would be a very long range IR missile that you would never see coming. 

 

And the Rafale has all the same stealth characteristics on top of also having reduced infrared signature of the airframe as well as the engine. So would be interesting to compare the stealth characteristics of both planes once it comes to the game. I still would want to know what the IRST range on the Eurofighter is claimed to be. 

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

7 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

There' s MICA IR, and then there's MICA NG IR.

MICA IR  = IR variant (80km)
MICA EM = Radar fox 3 variant (80km)

MICA NG IR = Longer range IR variant (110km)

MICA NG EM = Longer range fox 3 variant. (110km)

 

NG = New Generation. These are longer range newer missiles. MICA NG EM has AESA seeker. MICA NG IR would be a very long range IR missile that you would never see coming. 

 

And the Rafale has all the same stealth characteristics on top of also having reduced infrared signature of the airframe as well as the engine. So would be interesting to compare the stealth characteristics of both planes once it comes to the game. I still would want to know what the IRST range on the Eurofighter is claimed to be. 

yea i meant the NG EM.

 

I can't find any good estimates for the range of the PIRATE but its probably in the same ballpark as the OSF

[DirectSupport 938]

@Faster_Boiiiii @VanguardX2 @BagelIsMyWaifu @MaMoran20@psn @Adr_Farling

The Swiss once had a Rafale, Eurofighter, and Gripen brought to them for evaluations on whether or not to buy them. And they compared these planes against the the F/A-18C/D that was in their current inventory. Here was their assessment: 

 

 

Source: https://disco-legacy-data.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/public/upload/1/2/12332.pdf

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

6 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

@Faster_Boiiiii @VanguardX2 @BagelIsMyWaifu @MaMoran20@psn @Adr_Farling

The Swiss once had a Rafale, Eurofighter, and Gripen brought to them for evaluations on whether or not to buy them. And they compared these planes against the the F/A-18C/D that was in their current inventory. Here was their assessment: 

 

 

Source: https://disco-legacy-data.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/public/upload/1/2/12332.pdf

2009...

yeah a lot has changed since then

especially the avionics and ground strike "deficiencies"

Edited January 18, 2023 by Faster_Boiiiii

[DirectSupport 938]

Just now, Faster_Boiiiii said:

2009...

yeah a lot has changed since then

And that's fair to say, but France usually has the advantage of having control over the whole program and deciding quick on what to upgrade planes with, while assessments and consultations have to be made with the Eurofighter, which can cause the fighter to lag behind. IIRC, Rafale had an AESA radar on it before the Eurofighter did for instance. 

[Faster_Boiiiii 753]

17 minutes ago, DirectSupport said:

And that's fair to say, but France usually has the advantage of having control over the whole program and deciding quick on what to upgrade planes with, while assessments and consultations have to be made with the Eurofighter, which can cause the fighter to lag behind. IIRC, Rafale had an AESA radar on it before the Eurofighter did for instance. 

thats true, the CAPTOR-E has only recently started being rolled out but is now being installed in Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 aircraft in the Luftwaffe while Tranche 1s are being replaced by Tranche 4s which have it installed from the factory. 

20221205-download-16-bericht-des-bmvg-zu-ruestungsangelegenheiten-data.pdf this is germany specific but page 61... apparently only from mid 2025 onward when the Tranche 4s are first delivered... typical germany, we're pretty slow. that being said though, the captor-m seems decent so i can understand why we'd hesitate to change them.

dont ask me why they wrote eurofighter in CAPS LOCK EVERY TIME...

and before anyone asks: this is not a manual, its not classified, restricted or anything else. its a public report by the bundeswehr about their future plans and current situation

idk what they used for testing but its early tranche 2 eurofighters at best, early tranche 1s at worst

Edited January 18, 2023 by Faster_Boiiiii