Switching nation for the swiss Hunter F.58

[Iggy93 36]

This discussion is really ridiculous in my opinion. I'm a german speaking Swiss myself and i completely disagree with the addition into the german tree because it's against gaijin's rules they gave themselves. The Hunter is a British plane modified by the Swiss but it's still a British plane so it should go into the British tree. I hate what they did to the game with all justyfing of vehicles which cannot be justified. And when they give explanations about some of these vehicles which have no place they make another unjustifiable addition with a British plane in the German tree.

I mean you have to follow rules for these tech tree's because if not every tree will become interchangeable and thats the last thing i want. Whats wrong with more tech trees with just less vehicles. I mean a Swiss tech tree would not be as large as the other nations but still a much better solution imo.

[Command_oCommand 94]

5 minutes ago, gateausalaire said:

i honestly don't know much more than you probably do, i'm just some french dude who plays way too much this silly war game, what i'd hope for is one day seeing stuff like the taifun II or PZ68 either in french or italian tech tree and not germany, that would suck tremendous ****, and the hunter, even if a minor plane is probably already a step too far, it either means no more swiss stuff after or all swiss stuff going to germany, that wouldn't make it fun or enjoyable for anyone who's actually interested in them, the only messages i've seen so far are jsut people saying "lol nah is gud in germany" without caring about the political or historical or gameplay implication, and its just quite sad

Yeah that is very true. I highly value the historical and political implications of the addtion of the swiss Hunter. Like I said yesterday in the update post. The addition of the swiss Hunter is the stepping stone for Switzerland in game and the fact that it's not even an indigenous swiss vehicle being put in Germany just sounds terrible for the future of the swiss vehicles.

[TheWarmFridge 36]

its a massive kick to the face to british players as the very best version of one of their own domestic planes goes to germany. not only that but this version gets countermeasrues, an rwr, competent missiles with 20g overload, and a capable ground attack loadout for the br, all of which sits at 9.3 while the british hunters sit way too high in br, the f.6 with no rwr, a weaker engine, no countermeasures and dogwater sraams that have become genuinely useless due to 9L spammers, still sits at 10.0. 
or better yet, the fga.9, also at 9.3, which was gimped out of its countermeasures and ground attack weapons simply because gaijin chose the rhodesian export of it, who didnt get them. 

it makes absolutely no sense, both where it is in the tree and the br its placed at.

[spacesoldier117 876]

The problem with subnations is this, they use a mix of other nations vehicles. 
If we go by the files, Germany is slated to receive Switzerland as a subnation, this doesn't make any sense because they use a variety of vehicles that Germany doesn't need.
I don't approve the Hunter going to Germany nor a Switzerland subTT.

Switzerland is a gigantic problem as it ties to three nations we already have ingame: France, Germany and Italy.
There will also be problems regarding each vehicle that isn't indigenous or that wasn't made by the nation who actually receives the subTT as the others will, rightly, ask tor receive themselves as in the case of the Hawker.

Germany also could receive the Alpha jet instead of this Hunter.

Edited March 7, 2023 by spacesoldier117

[Jεcka 4,618]

Well... Gaijin had an easy way out, but they decided to walk the path of Roses and Thorns:

 

[FulmenInvicta 4]

Denmark has far greater military ties with Germany than Sweden; as the Cold War ramps up, Canada has far greater military ties with Germany than Britain - and, of course, Finland has much more Soviet hardware than Swedish. Gaijin says that such countries should be categorized by culture in some cases, balance in other cases, manufacture in yet other cases.

 

In the success of Finland, they have proven such solutions can work in greatly increasing the viability of a tree at almost all tiers. They have also proven that though it can be controversial and irritating to have such elements without especially unique researchable offerings, players WILL remain motivated to keep grinding on the whole. Many factors are behind this - a combination of "two birds one stone" philosophy for players who want varied options without diving into every individual tree, tank reserve depth in Ground Forces, and some (especially higher-tier) unique vehicles all do wonders for how many people will gravitate towards a tree.

 

It is, in light of what the players are overall willing to accept, particularly shocking that they now indicate they do not have any real plans of leveraging this easy solution for the future of balancing nations and lineups in any coherent manner with any clear policy or logic that players can put their faith into. It dismantles yet another "cultural" subtree for another tree in the name of further rounding the German gift lineup, it prevents another "manufacturer" from getting a top variant of its own vehicle (as has already occurred with the CL.13, missile armed Sea Hawk, FL-12 turret on DF105, MiG-23BN...) - which warrants a call back to when America often suffered the same and did not enjoy a fraction of its current popularity as a result.

 

It does not even fit a German "gameplay style" nor fill a blatant large gap in the tech tree, nor is there anything that makes Switzerland more German than the Austrian vehicles they put in to fill an empty GE premium tier. The real reason for the implementation of this plane is that it was an interesting idea filling a "gap" of limited guided munitions in the German tree and that it was an easy implementation for such a unique, "high-margin" event-style vehicle with significant unique qualities and appeal.
 

At this point, with all the joint/export prototypes and Argentine, postwar Canadian, and Polish vehicles locked to Germany, it truly indicates an extraordinary lack of awareness that they take such opportunities to add more minor nations to Germany when there are already plenty enough solutions to fill this exact BR bracket, ordnance (Alpha Jet comes to mind) and even "low effort for high uniqueness" (A-4AR, anti-shipping Daggers, CRV7-armed NF-5As...). It is simply tinting underlying balance and player grind/GE spending goals with a tortured veneer of arbitrary "cultural relation" policies - but the more they continue going by the "first idea that comes to mind" and retroactively justify their choices, the worse and worse the experience becomes for smaller nations that do not receive this attention and have to deal with their "unique vehicles" being permanently stuck in German hands.

 

And if it is not merely saturating Germany with more options but a rank balancing thing - would the saturation of Mirages in the French tree justify them giving the Mirage IIIS to America on the principle of filling a delta-wing interceptor gap in a major nation, just because it would be so much more work to model the F-106 or Alpha Jet? Should all Commonwealth planes go to the United States on "cultural ties," given how much closer Canada and Australia are to the US than Britain? Would Gaijin fill the empty holes in the British and French trees with anywhere near the same urgency as they do Germany?

 

Despite all this, I would be thoroughly happy with this principle of "cross-pollination" if export vehicles like the C2 and 2AV (and TH800, and in all likelihood a future TH495) were given to the relevant trees. As it stands, there is blatant and pervasive overcompensation for Germany's limited Cold War arsenal, and the further they dig this hole of contradictory precedent, the less room there is for engaging lineups and unique variants to go to minor nations, and the worse off the game's future health is for it.

[Silent_Witch 1,452]

27 minutes ago, spacesoldier117 said:

The problem with subnations is this, they use a mix of other nations vehicles. 
If we go by the files, Germany is slated to receive Switzerland as a subnation, this doesn't make any sense because they use a variety of vehicles that Germany doesn't need.
I don't approve the Hunter going to Germany nor a Switzerland subTT.

Switzerland is a gigantic problem as it ties to three nations we already have ingame: France, Germany and Italy.
There will also be problems regarding each vehicle that isn't indigenous or that wasn't made by the nation who actually receives the subTT as the others will, rightly, ask tor receive themselves as in the case of the Hawker.

Germany also could receive the Alpha jet instead of this Hunter.

It is poor move for Gaijin

It will be the best hunter in game so far, so it kind of **** of British main, then even with subtree arguments there are other Nations that have higher priority of needing subtree to fill gap.

[Ub3rshadow 874]

Sticking a competitive Hunter, that's essentially just an FGA.9 with flares, Aim 9Js and RWR, at 9.3 in the German tree as a squadron vehicle when we can't even save up squadron points anymore is a spit in the face IMO. Hunter F.4 got shoved into Sweden without also being added to the British tree eg foldered under the F.1 was also ridiculous, considering the F.4 served in large numbers with the RAF, and it could also historically use fireflashes which would've been a fun addition.

 

If these vehicles also got added to the British tree alongside the other trees then sure, but for some reason Gaijin can't even be bothered to reskin them for the RAF. I wouldn't even care about having to go through the stupid RP costs for researching and spading them, all I want is a damn hunter that works in the current meta, and the F.58 would fit that, unlike the F.1 and F.6.

[nathanclawfish 647]

Just now, Ub3rshadow said:

Sticking a competitive Hunter, that's essentially just an FGA.9 with flares, Aim 9Js and RWR, at 9.3 in the German tree as a squadron vehicle when we can't even save up squadron points anymore is a spit in the face IMO. Hunter F.4 got shoved into Sweden without also being added to the British tree eg foldered under the F.1 was also ridiculous, considering the F.4 served in large numbers with the RAF, and it could also historically use fireflashes which would've been a fun addition.

 

If these vehicles also got added to the British tree alongside the other trees then sure, but for some reason Gaijin can't even be bothered to reskin them for the RAF. I wouldn't even care about having to go through the stupid RP costs for researching and spading them, all I want is a damn hunter that works in the current meta, and the F.58 would fit that, unlike the F.1 and F.6.

this is a long list, i am still waiting for my Meteor night fighter, its an easy foldable vehicle, and was expecting it to get the same treatment as the F84g, but nope still waiting for it. 

[Ub3rshadow 874]

2 minutes ago, nathanclawfish said:

this is a long list, i am still waiting for my Meteor night fighter, its an easy foldable vehicle, and was expecting it to get the same treatment as the F84g, but nope still waiting for it. 

And the Vampires, the British vampire being the worst variant of the ones in-game and shoved at 8.0 of all BRs is comical.

[spacesoldier117 876]

7 minutes ago, Silent_Witch said:

It is poor move for Gaijin

It will be the best hunter in game so far, so it kind of **** of British main, then even with subtree arguments there are other Nations that have higher priority of needing subtree to fill gap.

Italy for example has some collaborations with Switzerland although more weak compared to France and Germany but its honestly the one that would need it as it would cover the need of MBTs, good missile SPAAs and in the future, the need of a 140mm MBT.
But everyone has their own motives to have Switzerland, this makes it one of the most difficult topic the community has ever faced.

[Adr_Farling 265]

I would like to disagree. The Hunter shouldn‘t be in the french tree, nor in the british tree. 
 

Why it shouldn‘t be in the bri‘ish tree: its a heavily modified version, upgraded by swiss companies which has little to do with the original hunter (especially in therms of armament and avionics). While the brits should get modified versions of the Hunter, they shouldn‘t get the swiss version, since Great Britan has little to nothing to do with the swiss cultur or the swiss army.

 

As many of you already know, the swiss is devided in (mainly) 3 parts: the german, the french and the italian parts. If you give the Hunter to the french, the germans and the italians will cry. If you give it to the germans (like it happend), the french and italians will cry.
So how to decide who should get the Hunter? Or lets rather ask, who should get the swiss Subtree! 
 

Vehicles: throughout time the swiss has bought many different tanks and planes for different countries including Germany, France, Great Britain, USA, Sweden and many others. So saying „but they bought the Mirage, so they are french“ or „but they used the Bf 109s, so they are german“ is not gonna get us far. So lets talk about another aspect:

 

Culture: is it more German, French or Italian? Well the answere is simple: German.

According to the swiss government, 62.6% of the county of switzerland is speaking one of many aleman (so german) dialects, making the swiss a rather german culture. Only 22.9% speak french, only 8.2% speak italian and the remaining 0.5% speak Romansh.

For those here who don‘t believe me:

https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/gesellschaft/sprachen/die-sprachen---fakten-und-zahlen.html 

 

But what do the swiss people want? 
Knowing the patriotism of swiss citizens myself, I can say that most swiss people would like to have a Tech Tree on their own. However the community would scream „Copy and Paste!!!“, German, French and Italian mains would cry over the precious additions their tech tree will never get and Gaijin would probably refuse due to the low number of players interested in the swiss military. 
 

In my humble opinion, while a swiss TT would have been the best and least controversial, having the swiss vehicles in the german tech tree is the right choice, simply due to the numbers (62.6% german-speaking)

Also yes it sucks for the british mains, but c‘mon, its a squadron vehicle. You don‘t even have to grind the tree for it.

 

[Conte_Baracca 4,547]

agree 1000%

 

[SithDoesTankTat1 250]

8 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

I would like to disagree. The Hunter shouldn‘t be in the french tree, nor in the british tree. 
 

Why it shouldn‘t be in the bri‘ish tree: its a heavily modified version, upgraded by swiss companies which has little to do with the original hunter (especially in therms of armament and avionics). While the brits should get modified versions of the Hunter, they shouldn‘t get the swiss version, since Great Britan has little to nothing to do with the swiss cultur or the swiss army.

 

As many of you already know, the swiss is devided in (mainly) 3 parts: the german, the french and the italian parts. If you give the Hunter to the french, the germans and the italians will cry. If you give it to the germans (like it happend), the french and italians will cry.
So how to decide who should get the Hunter? Or lets rather ask, who should get the swiss Subtree! 
 

Vehicles: throughout time the swiss has bought many different tanks and planes for different countries including Germany, France, Great Britain, USA, Sweden and many others. So saying „but they bought the Mirage, so they are french“ or „but they used the Bf 109s, so they are german“ is not gonna get us far. So lets talk about another aspect:

 

Culture: is it more German, French or Italian? Well the answere is simple: German.

According to the swiss government, 62.6% of the county of switzerland is speaking one of many aleman (so german) dialects, making the swiss a rather german culture. Only 22.9% speak french, only 8.2% speak italian and the remaining 0.5% speak Romansh.

For those here who don‘t believe me:

https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/gesellschaft/sprachen/die-sprachen---fakten-und-zahlen.html 

 

But what do the swiss people want? 
Knowing the patriotism of swiss citizens myself, I can say that most swiss people would like to have a Tech Tree on their own. However the community would scream „Copy and Paste!!!“, German, French and Italian mains would cry over the precious additions their tech tree will never get and Gaijin would probably refuse due to the low number of players interested in the swiss military. 
 

In my humble opinion, while a swiss TT would have been the best and least controversial, having the swiss vehicles in the german tech tree is the right choice, simply due to the numbers (62.6% german-speaking)

Also yes it sucks for the british mains, but c‘mon, its a squadron vehicle. You don‘t even have to grind the tree for it.

 

Pity at the end of the day it wouldn't exist without the brits. It's our airframe, and an f6 airframe at that. 

[nathanclawfish 647]

9 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

I would like to disagree. The Hunter shouldn‘t be in the french tree, nor in the british tree. 
 

Why it shouldn‘t be in the bri‘ish tree: its a heavily modified version, upgraded by swiss companies which has little to do with the original hunter (especially in therms of armament and avionics). While the brits should get modified versions of the Hunter, they shouldn‘t get the swiss version, since Great Britan has little to nothing to do with the swiss cultur or the swiss army.

 

As many of you already know, the swiss is devided in (mainly) 3 parts: the german, the french and the italian parts. If you give the Hunter to the french, the germans and the italians will cry. If you give it to the germans (like it happend), the french and italians will cry.
So how to decide who should get the Hunter? Or lets rather ask, who should get the swiss Subtree! 
 

Vehicles: throughout time the swiss has bought many different tanks and planes for different countries including Germany, France, Great Britain, USA, Sweden and many others. So saying „but they bought the Mirage, so they are french“ or „but they used the Bf 109s, so they are german“ is not gonna get us far. So lets talk about another aspect:

 

Culture: is it more German, French or Italian? Well the answere is simple: German.

According to the swiss government, 62.6% of the county of switzerland is speaking one of many aleman (so german) dialects, making the swiss a rather german culture. Only 22.9% speak french, only 8.2% speak italian and the remaining 0.5% speak Romansh.

For those here who don‘t believe me:

https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/gesellschaft/sprachen/die-sprachen---fakten-und-zahlen.html 

 

But what do the swiss people want? 
Knowing the patriotism of swiss citizens myself, I can say that most swiss people would like to have a Tech Tree on their own. However the community would scream „Copy and Paste!!!“, German, French and Italian mains would cry over the precious additions their tech tree will never get and Gaijin would probably refuse due to the low number of players interested in the swiss military. 
 

In my humble opinion, while a swiss TT would have been the best and least controversial, having the swiss vehicles in the german tech tree is the right choice, simply due to the numbers (62.6% german-speaking)

Also yes it sucks for the british mains, but c‘mon, its a squadron vehicle. You don‘t even have to grind the tree for it.

 

your logic is fundementally flawed, if we went by languages 1/3 of the world would be in the british tree, 1/3 of the world would be in the french tree, and the rest would be divided between spanish and native languages. 

[Tunagraph 223]

For starters if this thing is 9.3 with countermeasures and AIM9P then the F6 has absolutely no business being at 10.0.

You could slot this into the british tree as an alternative or upgrade to the FGA.9, would fit a lot better imo.

[nathanclawfish 647]

8 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

agree 1000%

 

With what bud, it belonging in germany, or being moved?

[Adr_Farling 265]

8 minutes ago, nathanclawfish said:

your logic is fundementally flawed, if we went by languages 1/3 of the world would be in the british tree, 1/3 of the world would be in the french tree, and the rest would be divided between spanish and native languages. 

The logic only applies to smaller countries having not enough vehicles to be a stand-alone TT.
Also in case you didn’t notice: Germany, Russia, Japan, China, Italy, Sweden and Israel all done speak English, French or Spanish.

The only country speaking another countries language in game is the USA, which is big enough to be a stand-alone TT, so the logic does not apply here.

 

Also I was talking about culture.

9 minutes ago, SithDoesTankTat1 said:

Pity at the end of the day it wouldn't exist without the brits. It's our airframe, and an f6 airframe at that. 

That is true, however Gaijin does not care about the airframe itself. If a vehicles is modified enough, it can be in another TT. Thats for example the reason why the J-7E is in the Chinese TT, not in the Russian.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Adr_Farling

[nathanclawfish 647]

4 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

 

 

Also I was talking about culture.

That is true, however Gaijin does not care about the airframe itself. If a vehicles is modified enough, it can be in another TT. Thats for example the reason why the J-7E is in the Chinese TT, not in the Russian.

 

no its in the tech tree because china has a tech tree, previously chinese planes and tanks were placed by their closest country of origin, see lvt in usa tree or the type 65 and 62 in the russian tree, your comment has no basis on previous precident. 

[Jεcka 4,618]

13 minutes ago, _Sister said:

For starters if this thing is 9.3 with countermeasures and AIM9P then the F6 has absolutely no business being at 10.0.

Welcome to overcompression lmao. Our top tier jets should be at 14.0, not 12.0

Edited March 7, 2023 by Holouu

[Fox_In_The_Box 6]

I greet you gamers with very funny stuff,

So as a British main I am now forced to cope watching germans get my plane with similar/better missiles, flares, better payload at 9.3 whilst I'm stuck with same/worse things at 10.0.

Germany suffers, huh?

Either make British hunters lower br or skyrocket this to 10.3/10.7. Otherwise you might as well delete British Hunters from the game tbh.

[Adr_Farling 265]

4 minutes ago, nathanclawfish said:

no its in the tech tree because china has a tech tree,

Thats right and switzerland will probably have a full subtree in Germany soon. 

 

5 minutes ago, nathanclawfish said:

your comment has no basis on previous precident. 

And? It happend. The swiss Hunter is in the German TT, not the british. Gaijin changes their own guidelines pretty often (for example high rank premiums). However if they introduce switzerland as a german Subtree, they still follow their own rules.

[nathanclawfish 647]

3 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

Thats right and switzerland will probably have a full subtree in Germany soon. 

 

And? It happend. The swiss Hunter is in the German TT, not the british. Gaijin changes their own guidelines pretty often (for example high rank premiums). However if they introduce switzerland as a german Subtree, they still follow their own rules.

Except it doesnt, this has literally rewritten a precident that has been going for over 10 years, which is why there is so much backlash.

[_Iluminas_ 3,769]

1 hour ago, nathanclawfish said:

your logic is fundementally flawed, if we went by languages 1/3 of the world would be in the british tree, 1/3 of the world would be in the french tree, and the rest would be divided between spanish and native languages. 

and english is a language made up by German Celtic Roman and Nordic so go figure

Edited March 7, 2023 by _Iluminas_

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

they really stuffed this update didn't they?