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Switching nation for the swiss Hunter F.58


Command_oCommand
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2 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

just saying, the VT-1 was changed by gaijin to stop the complaining about the pantsir
the changes are completly unhistorical and were made imo too as a ''cover-up''
this should be bug-reported.
 

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about the VT-1
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/d7/asset/document/VT1_brochure.pdf

I'm more or less of the same opinion, they made the change to answer the community's issues with the Pantsir.
I don't really know much about the VT-1 but I heard this one rather than an accurate "physical model" seems to be the third iteration of the VT-1.

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9 minutes ago, spacesoldier117 said:

I'm more or less of the same opinion, they made the change to answer the community's issues with the Pantsir.
I don't really know much about the VT-1 but I heard this one rather than an accurate "physical model" seems to be the third iteration of the VT-1.

i mean, the brochure is the most up to date one on the manufaturers website...
 but i see where you are coming from... its just annoying since its such an obvious handout.

but going back to the Swiss
im pretty sure that rank 8 tanks will roll around this year
and im pretty sure gaijin will add the never adopted 140mm and up tank guns
aka
Pz87-140
Thumper
Leclerc 140
Object 292
etc.

germany never finished the NPzK-140 so i think that the Swiss Pz87-140 will take that place in the techtree.
but thats just me tin-foiling, im just trying to make sense of it. ;)
 

Edited by dotEXCEL
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My main problem with it is the BR, its 9.3, whilst the FGA.9 is also 9.3, which doesnt seem entirely fair, since its essentially the same airframe but with much better missiles, has RWR and CMs, either it should go up in BR or the FGA.9 down, as currently it makes the British Hunters entirely obselete as it beats out them all, including the F.6 which is 10.0.

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1 minute ago, Emil215p said:

My main problem with it is the BR, its 9.3, whilst the FGA.9 is also 9.3, which doesnt seem entirely fair, since its essentially the same airframe but with much better missiles, has RWR and CMs, either it should go up in BR or the FGA.9 down, as currently it makes the British Hunters entirely obselete as it beats out them all, including the F.6 which is 10.0.

oh 100%. 9.3 is so hilariously low... its just dumb
i wonder if the hunter F6 becomes good when they do the thrust vectoring missile changes.
btw the MK58 is using currently the FGA.9's flight model, not the F.6's

Edited by dotEXCEL
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7 hours ago, Nachtgeist2423@live said:

Except the MEXAS was developed and made by a German company and Canada is an independent nation. The M1A1 AIM was produced in the US but Australia was the first nation to order the upgrades then the US did. That is why it was put as a US squadron vehicle because both nations received it.

Except president is that nations of the British empire go in the British tree, see the Sentinel tanks, Australian aircraft, Canadian Adats and Skink, and South Africa.

 

as for your point on the MEXAS and M1A1 AIM, thats why the Hunter should go into the British tree.

2 hours ago, The_True_Top_Cat said:

no

Then give us the Hunter

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4 minutes ago, Hopper909 said:

Except president is that nations of the British empire go in the British tree, see the Sentinel tanks, Australian aircraft, Canadian Adats and Skink, and South Africa.

 

as for your point on the MEXAS and M1A1 AIM, thats why the Hunter should go into the British tree.

Then give us the Hunter

Except that isn’t precedent is it? Literally you all can’t even agree if the precedent is that these vehicles go to the country that made the vehicle or if they go to an overarching nation. So which is it?

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8 minutes ago, Nachtgeist2423@live said:

Except that isn’t precedent is it? Literally you all can’t even agree if the precedent is that these vehicles go to the country that made the vehicle or if they go to an overarching nation. So which is it?

it has to be either or, the hunter is a clear example of the president being broken. the president used to be that they would go to the country of origin.

 

so to fix president either the Hunter should go to the British tree OR, the MEXAS and the M1A1 AIM should go to the British tree.

Edited by Hopper909
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6 minutes ago, Hopper909 said:

it has to be either or, the hunter is a clear example of the president being broken. the president used to me that they would go to the country of origin.

 

so to fix president either the Hunter should go to the British tree OR, the MEXAS and the M1A1 AIM should go to the British tree.

neighter will happen.
since users already own all 3 in their techtrees, gaijin wont move or convert the coupons / vehiecles.
same goes with the american Merkavas.
i already talked about this with MGB once in voice.
the converting thing will not happen. these can only happen during the devserver phase (see SK-105) when the vehiecles are new and no one owns them yet.
so pls folks, be realistic
 

Edited by dotEXCEL
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1 hour ago, dotEXCEL said:

neighter will happen.
since users already own all 3 in their techtrees, gaijin wont move or convert the coupons / vehiecles.
same goes with the american Merkavas.
i already talked about this with MGB once in voice.
the converting thing will not happen. these can only happen during the devserver phase (see SK-105) when the vehiecles are new and no one owns them yet.
so pls folks, be realistic
 

Will we ever see a dev blog and what excuse they use for this Hunter, or they don’t even try to hide it anymore:lol2:

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21 hours ago, Command_oCommand said:

This topic is made with the intent to appeal to change the new swiss Hunter F.58.

 

As most people now knows, the Hunter F.58 is currently in the german tech tree. I am suggesting that the Hunter F.58 be removed from the german tech tree and be instead but either in the british tree or the french one.

 

 

My arguments supporting my idea are that the Hunter F.58 is plane that is british in design and operated by a nation that is not (or should I say "was not until now") represented into the game.

For the sake of the argument I will formulate my points as if the Hunter was not yet in game.

 

Switzerland not being represented in game should have its vehicles put in a nation that represents it the most or that at the very least the designing country gets to have it. In this case, Britain and France.

 

Why Britain? Because as simply as it is, the Hunter is a british plane in design. It was britain that developped the skeleton of it so to speak.

 

Why France? Because yes, one might argue that Switzerland has connections to Germany and it is true. This can be seen with swiss cold war era tanks, a good example of it being the Leopard 2A4. However it is not Switzerland's strongest connection. The strongest connection Switzerland has being France.

I could be very wrong with the following point but I do have a strong feeling that the main reason the swiss Hunter got added in Germany was due to the fact that both countries share a language and that Switzerland's relation with France in the past is not too well known.

 

Switzerland has been closer to Germany militarily speaking since the middle of the cold war. While with France it has been for over a century now (more notably during World War 2).

 

Switzerland made a secret military agreement (La Charité-sur-Loire secret archive) with France during the middle of the 30s in case of german invasion of the french territory. Agreement mentioned on the official swiss government web site  At the time, to Switzerland, Germany was seen as a threat. The agreement consisted of forming 9 french divisions that will cooperate with Switzerland aswell as other french infantery divisions to make contact with the swiss army around the village of Gempen, outside of the city of Basel.

 

Switzerland purchased some two hundreds of AMX-13s in the middle of the 50s.

 

More in the past, France also had major influence on Switzerland's development, the most notable one being the formation of the Helvetic Republic, where France imposed a centralisation of the cantons. Making cantons no longer sovereign. As before this, each cantons at the time were fully sovereign, ruling over their own territories and there was no central power. 

 

 

So, for all of these reasons, I do believe and highly suggest that the swiss Hunter be put in the french tech tree. Similarly as to what was done to the SK-105.

Not gonna happen, another copium thread:popcorn:

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3 hours ago, dotEXCEL said:

 

yeah... but lets be real here.
the chances are higher that we get a WW2 / CW groundforces sepertaion in reseach and matchmaker than a standalone tree...

I dunno. There seems to be a possibility of Switzerland having a tree. Btw I didn't know WW2/CW separation was still a thing.

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22 hours ago, Command_oCommand said:

As most people now knows, the Hunter F.58 is currently in the german tech tree. I am suggesting that the Hunter F.58 be removed from the german tech tree and be instead but either in the british tree or the french one.

I agree with changing it, but not the french or british. It should go to Italy because of the swiss guard in the vatican. Papal states subtree for Italy!

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21 hours ago, Nachtgeist2423@live said:

Switzerland’s neutrality has been set in stone since the treaty of Westphalia in 1648. In that time only France(1798), Britian(1940-1945), and the US(1943-1945) have violated Swiss neutrality killing large numbers of Swiss citizens. Also the original 13 Cantons being German speaking.

H man was really angry at switzerland and wanted to invade it, and was pretty close to doing so. 

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21 hours ago, Lord_Prism said:

Does the name Napoleon ring a bell? 

Historically and Geographically, Germany has closer ties than France does, and while yes the Hunter was at base a British vehicle, the Hunter 80 program was done entirely by Swiss companies in an attempt to export the older Hunters 

You know who has the closest ties to Switzerland, especially militarily? The Vatican does. No other nation can boast having part Swiss military directly defend them.  

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38 minutes ago, halflings1335@live said:

You know who has the closest ties to Switzerland, especially militarily? The Vatican does. No other nation can boast having part Swiss military directly defend them.  

Vatican tech tree with Swiss as sub tech tree confirmed. Swiss Guard and then the Pope as a top tier vehicle that can summon the wraith of god and insta-kill (or insta-ascend) all players on the map.

Best regards,

Phil

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Culture: is it more German, French or Italian? Well the answere is simple: German.

According to the swiss government, 62.6% of the county of switzerland is speaking one of many aleman (so german) dialects, making the swiss a rather german culture. Only 22.9% speak french, only 8.2% speak italian and the remaining 0.5% speak Romansh.

For those here who don‘t believe me:

https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/gesellschaft/sprachen/die-sprachen---fakten-und-zahlen.html 

You are using the argument that since there is more german speakers in Switzerland therefore Switzerland associates more to Germany and claim because of this they have a more german culture which is not true. Sharing a language does not equal to having the culture of the country where the language comes from. This is a flawed reasoning because, for example, by following your own logic the UK and the US have rather the same culture due to the fact they share the same language. Thus this idea would be promoting putting all american vehicles in the british tech tree or vice-versa or any english speaking country in the same bracket, completely ignoring history and the politics involved in between the countries.

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4 hours ago, Hopper909 said:

Except president is that nations of the British empire go in the British tree, see the Sentinel tanks, Australian aircraft, Canadian Adats and Skink, and South Africa.

 

as for your point on the MEXAS and M1A1 AIM, thats why the Hunter should go into the British tree.

Then give us the Hunter

no

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9 hours ago, Schindibee said:

First of all, let me commit that I may be biased on one hand (Swiss myself, German speaking part), but unbiased at the same time, as it really is much more important and exiting that his aircraft has been implemented at all in WT: I have known the Swiss Hunters from my childhood (a Hunter being actually the very first military aircraft I catually sat in), growing up practically on a Swiss military airfield , family and many friends working for the air force, and I not only got to get to know a few Hunter pilots and ground crew myself, but even had the chance to fly in a Hunter T.68 once.

 

Another important note: even as I am a (voluntary) staff member, all my views expressed here regarding this topic are my own personal opinions, and in no way any public statement by Gaijin, or influenced by them.

 

What rankles to me is the clear, seemingly unwavering assumption that the Hunter Mk.58 would belong into the French tree by the OP. Here I sense a strong bias, and was (correctly) assuming immediately that the OP was actually from the French part of Switzerland.  ;-)

 

But then this is something we observed time and again also whenever we evaluated new aircraft in the last decades: Mirage pilots would lobby strongly for Mirage 2000 and later Rafale, Tiger pilots for the Hornets,...

 

As to close ties with France, I think we really need to look at the era covered by WT, so even mentioning Napoleon or anything even further back seems completely unreasonable.

 

Simple fact is that wherever you put any Swiss vehicle (except in its own tree - which is even more far fetched than an independent  Swedish or Israeli tree), you will get people complaining. And it's also clear that the opinions would be biased a lot depending on the background of the people: Brits would claim any Hunter must be in the UK tree, French that any Mirage (and derivatives) in the French tree, and yes, understandeably also francophone Swiss may be biased towards any Swiss vehicles ending up in the French tree.

 

And we are - small as we are - a culturally and politically diverse bunch which causes bad feelings time and again in our national politics. Theres even a term for this: "Röstigraben", which depicts the virtual boundary between the French speaking cantons and the others, because very often in national votes, the French speaking cantons would vote for the other thing than the German, Italian and Rumantsch speaking parts, understandeably often very frustratinfg for the French speaking Swiss, as they thus often feel to be taken less seriously with their concerns and opinions.

 

The "placmenet in which tree issue" can not really be resolved as - another simple fact - we Swiss as neutral and unaffiliated nation have collected our military equipment form many parts of the world: We've flown German, French and Italian aircraft in WW2, US after the war, quite a few British aircraft and again US and French later, and also on the ground we had a strange mix. Let's just list a few examples:

  • Dewoitine D.26/27
  • various Moranes
  • various Bf-109 variants
  • P-51
  • T-6 (AT-16)
  • Vampire & Venom
  • Hunter
  • Mirage III (with US avionics and Falcon AAM's, and later Israeli-inspired canards)
  • Tiger II
  • Hawk
  • Bloodhound
  • Rapier
  • AMX-13
  • Centurions
  • Leopard II
  • ...

Plus add quite a few local designs and projects, like Pz58/68, P-16, N-20 and so on,

 

So where to put us?!?

Anywhere and nowhere...

 

Now some far fetched assumptions:

 

1) assuming the Hunter Mk.58 is a one-off thing, it should most likely belong into the tech tree of its origin, the Brits (just as for example the Austrian Saab-105OE is in the Swedish tree)

 

2) assuming in the future there is a potential for a Swiss sub-tree. the German or Swedish tree would in my view be the best option

 

Why German?

 

Obvious conclusion by many might be that I'm from the german speaking part, but I really stand above this and try to look at it pragmatically.

 

What I see as important is that miltech-wise, politically, geographically and even culturally (sorry VS, VD, NE, FR, JU, TI and GR), were a tad more aligned with Germany than any other nation.

 

Close industrial ties to Germany (even in WW2) existed and exist with Swiss weapons and ammo used by the Germans, German Bf-109's flying for us, later many collaborations (see Gepard, Leopard II). Yes, also with France, but to a lesser extent. We may actually have been closer to the British mil-tech wise with Vampire, Venom, Hawk, Bloodhound, Rapier and Hunter than with the French military industry in the second half of last century.

 

Why Sweden?

 

Where I'd have actually seen Swiss vehicles most would have been in Sweden, forming a group of neutral/unaffiliated nations, and nations also sharing similar or the same imported technology (P-51, Vampire, Hunter, Leopard II, even Centurion), but also native technology which was exchanged between SE and CH. And wit would offer the posisbility for adding also Austria for the cold war era.

 

Also, the German tree is already very full and diverse, whereas the Swedish tree could profit from more "meat" even after the addition of the Finnish sub-tree. But fleshing it out even more and turning it onto a kind of "neutral European countires" with Sweden, Finland, Switzerland and Austria would make sense, no?

 

Placing any imported vehicle of a minor nation into a major nations tree has always been tricky: Turkish M60 derivative in the US tree, sure, but placing a Turkish Starfighter into the Italian tree is already a bit more farfetched but stil understandeable. Or a Finnish Vampire in the Swedish tree. Or the Austrian JaPz.K A2 in the German tree? This would also like now the Swiss Hunter be for reasons of geographcal, cultural and political "closeness".

 

FInally there's the argument of "countries don't even matter so much at all in WT:

Everyone is basically fighting everyone else at some point or another. I play mostly hight tier Air  Sim EC atm, and often fly Swedish aircraft side by side with US and Israeli aircraft agains German, Russian and Japanese planes. So why does the exactl placement of a special vehicle even matter and be the basis fir such heated debate?!?

 

Thanks for your in depth explanation of your opinion.

 

I may be a bit biased towards France, and I do not deny that. I do at least try to justify my position rather than simply giving an answer in the kinds of "No it should be in France". A type of comment that has been seen a few times in this thread already by big proponents of keeping the Hunter in Germany on the first page. And yeah maybe bringing up parts of swiss history back to the Naopleonic era is a bit stretched. I can totally understand it. But I do still want to point out that all native swiss vehicles used french and sometimes on a more occasional frequency british componenents. From pre war, world war 2 and post war aswell as a stronger military relatonship with France during the collaborative stuff since the 20's to 1941.

 

Still tho, thanks for giving your input ^^

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27 minutes ago, Command_oCommand said:

 

Thanks for your in depth explanation of your opinion.

 

I may be a bit biased towards France, and I do not deny that. I do at least try to justify my position rather than simply giving an answer in the kinds of "No it should be in France". A type of comment that has been seen a few times in this thread already by big proponents of keeping the Hunter in Germany on the first page. And yeah maybe bringing up parts of swiss history back to the Naopleonic era is a bit stretched. I can totally understand it. But I do still want to point out that all native swiss vehicles used french and sometimes on a more occasional frequency british componenents. From pre war, world war 2 and post war aswell as a stronger military relatonship with France during the collaborative stuff since the 20's to 1941.

 

Still tho, thanks for giving your input ^^

The only thing that i don't agree with swiss hunter is the BR hilariously low in 9.3 and being 10.3 material easily,and besides the F6 also being VERY overtiered chronically and more than lighter than a lighthouse

 

But adding the Swiss hunter in the german tree is quite obvious to do and fill a great gap on that,because if it were 10.3 (its logical BR) would complete and help into a advanced aircraft for CAS in german 10.3 lineup,as the BN is kinda trashy there with no precision guided munitions and AAMs,and the UM3K is a 11.0 plane

 

And France/UK doesnt need this hunter,because france already has the best ground attack aircraft in 10.3 and can be pulled higher if needed and hold well (Jaguar) with better guided munitions,a GOOD targeting pod,absurd amount of countermeasures,Magics and also the airframe itself is much better

 

And UK already has the Jaguar Gr 1 and Gr1A exactly,that also has THERMALS in that similar targeting pod,and both planes has laser guided bombs and are INFINITELY much better and reliable than a maverick B with crappy low resolution optics/no zoom or thermals and also a very bugged damage

 

 

But the geopolitical situation of Switzerland and Germany being extremely strong cuz cold war and nowadays justifies and also gives a reason for the swiss hunter be added there

 

 

 

Edited by FluffyBoiOwO@psn
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The Plane should have went to UK if anyone. There is less of a reason to add it to France than even Germany. More importantly, I couldn't care less if it should have gone to britan at this point. It fills a massive capability gap in the tree for Germany.

Edited by Ruskie_Turtles
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1 minute ago, Ruskie_Turtles said:

The Plane should have went to UK if anyone. There is less of a reason to add it to France than even Germany. More importantly, I couldn' care less if it should have gone to britan at this point. It fills a massive capability gap in the tree for Germany.

MiG-23BN no longer exists then now I assume

Edited by Command_oCommand
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1 minute ago, Ruskie_Turtles said:

The mig23 bn is hot garbage because it doesn't get countermeasures and extremely mid ground attack options. Hence why I said capability gap.

It's a MiG-23 at 9,7 and has access to a very generous payload aswell as access to Kh-23M AGMs. It seems fairly good to me.

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20 minutes ago, FluffyBoiOwO@psn said:

the BN is kinda trashy there with no precision guided munitions and AAMs,and the UM3K is a 11.0 plane

 

3 minutes ago, Command_oCommand said:

MiG-23BN no longer exists then now I assume

 

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