indigenous The best WW2 tank ever made by a minor nation: Hungary's 44M Tas

[BlueBeta 7,558]

@Victory_799@psn Interesting suggestion. I always wanted such kind of "Hungarian Panther" in game. Right now in the Italian TT there is a bunch of Hungarian vehicles and none of these are "researchable for free" and i honestly doubt that this vehicle would be added as regular. So I voted "premium" but , and I suggest you to add it as option, I would vote for "Squadron Vehicle for Italy" if possible and add to the Researchable option "for independent TT". It would be at least free but not inserted in the normal line since there is no place right now. I think it would be a good compromise.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

4 hours ago, atta26hu said:

Really nice topic, well done! I would like to see both 80 and 75 mm versions in game.

 

Its really interesting to see that a minor nation, Hungary could catch up with tank designing to mid-late war desings.

 

Interesting story is that the hungarian engineers and high ranking millitary personal went to Germany and looked, checked the Panther at a demo, took notes and then came back to Hungary. When they designed the new tank the TAS, they took ideas from that interaction with the german tank and (if I am right) thats why its really similar to the panther.

 

Its really good that it has 5 reverse gears, same as forward, same with the Zrínyis and the Turáns, its an interesting thing about them.

 

The question is that should the TAS come with a 120mm plate or with the 100mm?

 

I think the turret was all around 100mm, what source mentions the rear of the turret being less than 100mm, because a lot of the time I see that is is mentioned with all around having 100mm.

 

Another interesting thing is that in Hungary the classification of a heavy tank was different, like the Turán II which had a 75mm guns was called a heavy tank, Nehéz Turán-Heavy Turán.

I agree that because it has more armour than the Panther it should be a heavy tank, and in Hungary it was classified as a hevy tank too.

 

I think 4.7 would be a low BR, the Churchill VII(I love this tank) is at 4.7 which has 100mm pen and has 152mm of armor, the TAS would be faster and better at everything than the Churchill, I think it should go to 5.0 or 5.3. (I am referring to the 75mm TAS) but thats Gaijins decision where the tank will go.

I agree it's really impressive how Hungary, a minor nation, could design such a powerful tank that was on the level of German/Soviet tank design, despite having a far smaller industry. This was one of my reasons for making this suggestion. Yes it's true that this tank took inspiration from the Panther, but also from the T-34. I like how the Hungarians took the best aspects of the Panther (e.g. good gun, good armour design, decent mobility) and got rid of the complicated and unnecessary parts (e.g. complicated suspension).

 

As for the armour, it is up to Gaijin to decide which values to use. I have updated the turret armour section as my sources also said that the turret was 100 mm thick all around, but when I watched ConeOfArc's video on the Tas, he said he found one source listing the turret rear as 50 mm, but he said "I have no idea where that figure came from". I changed the wording to reflect how 100 mm all around seems to be the correct value, but for the turret rear a source saying it was 50 mm thick was found.

 

You say that 4.7 would be too low for the Tas because the Churchill VII is also at 4.7 but is slower and has a weaker gun, but the Churchill VII has a bit better armour, especially on the sides where it is almost 2x as thick as the Tas' side armour. Overall the Churchill VII is better protected, so I think that the Tas (with 75 mm) could be justified at 4.7, or at 5.0, but not 5.3 because at 5.0 and 5.3 the Tas can face Tiger Is, Tiger IIs, Jagdpanthers and IS-2s – with its 75 mm gun it would be almost hopeless frontally against these.  

[lLiberté 345]

2 hours ago, Victory_799@psn said:

 

I also wanted to address this: "Though having one post for two separate variants of same vehicle is an issue.". The 75 mm gun and 80 mm gun are just two different guns that would have been mounted to the exact same model of tank, and even the exact same physical prototype (from my understanding). Other than the gun itself there is no difference between the Tas with a 75 mm gun and the Tas with an 80 mm gun, it's not like a Tas V1 and Tas V2, it's more like putting a 47 mm gun into a T-34 until the intended 76 mm gun is finished.

 

 

  I see your point do not get me wrong thats my resolution of implementation, in the end there would be two vehicles right ? One with 75mm and other with 80mm. For the suggestion part, that was the rule while I was doing suggestions, one vehicle for per suggestion topic. In this case there is actually two however they might be exactly the same except for the main gun, a different topic would be required but @Thatz knows better, you could ask about that through direct message. 

 

2 hours ago, Victory_799@psn said:

Other than the gun itself there is no difference between the Tas with a 75 mm gun and the Tas with an 80 mm gun, it's not like a Tas V1 and Tas V2, it's more like putting a 47 mm gun into a T-34 until the intended 76 mm gun is finished.

 

  Again, I completely understand your point, and wholly agree the suggestion, however you could make two separate suggestions something like 44M Tas (75mm 43.M) and 44M Tas (80mm 29/44.M), using weapons name to highlight specifics "variant", just like KV-1s or T-34s does in game. Again @Thatz knows better, its just my opinion

2 hours ago, Victory_799@psn said:

Now as proof take the Toldi, Turan or Zrinyi Hungarian tanks, these have many variants (Toldi I, II, IIA, III, Turan I, II, III, Zrinyi I, II). Each variant is renamed for the year of that variant, for example the Zrinyi II is called "43M Zrinyi II" and the Zrinyi I is called "44M Zrinyi I". The Turan I, II and III are called 40M, 41M and 43M Turan respectively (so when you call the 44M Tas the "44M", it doesn't mean much because it just means "model 1944", the name of the tank itself is "Tas").

 

 

  Its me being lazy, should've referred the vehicle with its proper name, sorry about the confusion I'll fix it right away

[Victory_799@psn 101]

4 hours ago, JamesPond1200@psn said:

You're welcome! I hope we see this tank added and recognized by more people!

Do not back down on this issue. Bring it all the way to the top if you have to. There is no reason to not keep the 80mm gun in the suggestion.

I hope so too. I won't back down with the 80 mm gun issue unless I am proven wrong. Especially with all of the examples you guys have mentioned, it would make no sense to be so pedantic about the Tas' 80 mm gun when most of us can agree it's absolutely fine.

3 hours ago, jon_man1199 said:

A definite +1 from me, to be honest It would be a neat tank to have with either the 75mm or the 80mm. Also, nice job on the research and writing, it was most definitely an interesting read. 

Thank you, I'm glad that you enjoyed it!

3 hours ago, ofekk213 said:

+1

 

The Yak-141 gets an IRST sensor that was never made and the Japaneae get the F-16AJ which was never made, so the 80mm is very justified here.

 

I'd love seeing both the 75mm version and 80mm version ingame.

Exactly, well said. Another example that came to mind was the R2Y2 and how it gets jet engines in War Thunder (it was a propeller plane in reality). I don't think that the Tas' 80 mm gun is breaking any rules here. 

3 hours ago, JamesPond1200@psn said:

This! This is all the argument you need. The 80mm gun is more real than either of those, so what's the issue?

+1

2 hours ago, RycotSS said:

Exactly. The Yak-141 was given IRST and HMD on the basis of that it may have been given these if the plane actually entered production. There should be no problem with giving this thing the 80 mm if it was intended for it to have that 80 mm when entering production.

Also: Extremely well done suggestion! One of the most detailed ones I've read! Huge +1.

Exactly! In fact, the Tas wasn't just intended to have the 80 mm gun when entering production, it was the intended armament all along; from the blueprints and scale mockup (the scale mockup photos show the Tas with the 80 mm gun) to the prototype and production vehicles. The 75 mm gun was just a temporary replacement to be mounted on the prototype as the 80 mm gun had some issues that needed fixing at the time.

And thank you for the feedback, I really appreciate all of these nice comments.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

1 hour ago, BlueBeta said:

@Victory_799@psn Interesting suggestion. I always wanted such kind of "Hungarian Panther" in game. Right now in the Italian TT there is a bunch of Hungarian vehicles and none of these are "researchable for free" and i honestly doubt that this vehicle would be added as regular. So I voted "premium" but , and I suggest you to add it as option, I would vote for "Squadron Vehicle for Italy" if possible and add to the Researchable option "for independent TT". It would be at least free but not inserted in the normal line since there is no place right now. I think it would be a good compromise.

I've heard that Gaijin is planning on adding a Hungarian sub tree into the Italian tech tree, like how they added a Finnish sub tree to the Swedish tech tree. That is why I think the Tas can be added as a researchable vehicle, it could come with the Hungarian sub tree for Italy. I think "squadron vehicle" is too specific and unlikely of an option, there are only 7 squadron tanks across all tech trees as of now. Also, the Tas would be somewhere from BR 4.3 to 5.3, whereas all squadron vehicles except the Firecrest are rank V+ BR 7.3+ so the Tas and Firecrest would be outliers. I really don't think that Gaijin will make the Tas into a squadron vehicle when they can just add the Tas along with all of the other Hungarian vehicles in a Hungarian sub tree. The 4th poll question allows you to choose which tech tree you want the Tas to be added to and "independent Hungarian tree" is an option there.

 

I also have a solution for how the Hungarian tanks already in War Thunder can be included in the researchable tree: Rename the premium Toldi IIA and Turan II to something like Turan II 2nd Armoured division or Toldi IIA 4th Armoured regiment and give them unique camouflages/decals, then you can add a regular Toldi IIA and a regular Turan II into the researchable sub tree line but without the premium bonuses, unique name and camouflages. As for the premium Zrinyi I in War Thunder, all you need to do is rename it to Zrinyi I sorozatvető (roughly translates to Zrinyi I rocket launcher), and make the rockets a bit better (such as make it deal more reliable damage, allow it to be aimed down more to fire at 0 degrees, give it an aiming reticle, etc.). Then they could add a researchable Zrinyi I to the sub tree line (obviously without the rockets and premium bonuses).

[Victory_799@psn 101]

@Thatzare the 48 hours still going down or have you paused this while we discuss the 80 mm gun?  

[Thatz 637]

28 minutes ago, Victory_799@psn said:

@Thatzare the 48 hours still going down or have you paused this while we discuss the 80 mm gun?  

The 48 hours is still going on, there is little to no evidence to state that the 80mm gun was made specifically for this tank. I have been able to find too many conflicting sources that conflict on the origin reason for the gun to be made and I have spoken to other suggestion moderators and they have done their own independent research and came to the same conclusion.

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

With all things said the 44M Tas did fully intend to use the 80mm gun furthermore the 43.M 75mm was just a stop gap solution for the prototype until the design team could complete the gun cradle for the new gun.  I honestly don't see the issue to having the production version in the tech tree even if the gun was technically never mounted. We have multiple prototype aircraft in the game that were never fitted with their intended armament but that hasn't stopped Gaijin before. 

EDIT: I have update this post to reflect new information I was unaware of. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by WayOfTheWolk

[jon_man1199 563]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWolk said:

Just to clarify something this "80mm" gun is in fact just a license built Bofors 75mm Model 1929 AA gun. The Hungarians have this tradition of rounding up the caliber of their guns for some reason. That said the 44M Tas did fully intend to use the gun furthermore the 43.M 75mm was just a stop gap solution for the prototype until the design team could complete the gun cradle for the 75mm M1929.  I honestly don't see the issue to having the production version in the tech tree even if the gun was technically never mounted. We have multiple prototype aircraft in the game that were never fitted with their intended armament but that hasn't stopped Gaijin before. 

Agreed, as for the 80mm that was apparently a heavily modified version of the Bofors 75mm Model 1929 that had been License produced in Hungary. According to the TE article at least one of them was built and tested, there is even a photograph in the article of the 29/44M 80 mm L/58 in firing position.

 

Spoiler

 

[TR_GEN_TARIK_E 140]

On 21/03/2023 at 01:11, Victory_799@psn said:

Tanks from minor nations are not very common, and usually they are just slight upgrades of other nations' tanks. Truly indigenous and unique tank designs from minor nations are rare, and those that are capable too are even more rare, but one which is entirely indigenous and better than all tanks from minor nations and even many tanks from major nations? Well there's only one:

  I would like to present the best WW2 tank from any minor nation – Hungary's 44M Tas!  

 

Specifications: (from Wikipedia)

 

Mass: 38 tonnes (37 long tons; 42 short tons)*

Length: 9.2 m (30 ft 2 in) with gun facing forwards*

Width: 3.5 m (11 ft 6 in)*

Height: 3 m (9 ft 10 in)*

Crew: 5 (Commander, Gunner, Driver, Loader, Radio Operator)

Armour: 20–120 mm (0.8–4.7 in)

Main armament:

-For production vehicles: 1 × 80 mm 29/44.M Bofors L/58 cannon (80 mm Bofors AA gun heavily modified for anti-tank use)
-For prototype vehicles: 1 × 7.5 cm 43.M tank gun

Secondary armament: 2 × 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M machine gun

Engines: 2 × gasoline Weiss Manfréd Z-V8H-4; 2 × 260 hp (2 × 195 kW) for a total of 520 hp (390 kW)

Power to weight ratio: 13.68 hp/ton

Suspension: two-wheel leaf spring bogies with shock absorbers

Operational range: 200 km (120 mi)

Maximum speed: 45 km/h (28 mph)

 

Type: Medium / Heavy tank

Place of origin: Kingdom of Hungary

Used by: Kingdom of Hungary

Wars: World War II

Designer: Weiss Manfréd Works

Designed: 1943

Manufacturer: Weiss Manfréd Works

Produced: 1943–1944

Number built: 2 prototypes

44M Tas specifications (from Tank Encyclopedia)
Approximate dimensions	6.3 × 3.15 × 2.7 m (20’8” × 10’4” × 8’10”)
Total weight	36.6 t
Crew	5 (commander, driver, gunner, loader, radioman)
Propulsion	2 × Weiss Manfréd V-8H, water cooled V8 petrol, 520 hp (2 × 260 hp, 388 kW), power to weight ratio of 14 hp/t
Suspension	Leaf springs
Estimated maximum speed	45 km/h (28 mph)
Armament, planned for series production	29/44M 80 mm (3.15 in) Bofors/DIMÁVAG L/58 2 × 34/40AM 8 mm (0.31 in) Gebauer machine guns
Armament, prototypes	43M 75 mm (2.95 in) L/43 coaxial 34/40AM 8 mm (0.31 in) Gebauer machine gun
Armour	20 to 120 mm (0.79-4.7 in)
Total production	Two partially completed prototypes

 

*Note: different sources state the dimensions of the Tas differently, however according to Károly “Karika” Németh in this source, the smaller dimensions are the correct ones, with the larger dimensions having been made due to a mistake. Therefore the dimensions from Wikipedia are likely wrong. From the bottom picture in the spoiler below, you can see how the two sizes compare and how much larger the Tas was originally thought to be.

Hide contents

 

What is the 44M Tas?

 

The 44M Tas is an entirely Hungarian designed heavy/medium tank of World War II. It resembled the German Panther tank, both in terms of looks and capabilities. Comparing the two tanks, the Tas had better armour than the Panther, similar mobility, the turret was further forward, the suspension design was different and the Tas would have had a powerful 80 mm gun, possibly as powerful as the Panther's legendary 75 mm KwK 42. Since the 80 mm gun that was chosen for the Tas needed further development before being ready, the engineers decided to use a temporary replacement gun – the 75 mm 43.M (which is similar in performance to the Panzer IV H's 75 mm KwK 40). I was asked by a forum moderator to not suggest the 44M Tas' 80 mm gun here, as this gun was planned for production vehicles whilst the 75 mm gun was planned for prototype vehicles, and production vehicles never made it into production, whilst prototype vehicles did. Therefore, I am suggesting the Tas' 75 mm gun being added to War Thunder but not its 80 mm gun. 

 

Brief history of the 44M Tas:

 

By 1943 Hungary’s tank production was becoming obsolete and it struggled against the modern, well armoured Soviet tanks. In response, Hungary started to develop the Turán III medium tanks (similar to a Panzer IV H) and Zrínyi I assault guns (similar to a StuG III G). However, Hungary still tried to buy the licence of powerful German vehicles such as the Panzer IV H and the Panther, but Germany refused to sell the licences. Hungary therefore had no other option than to design its own modern heavy tank to counter modern Soviet tanks with. In April 1943 the Ministry of Defense (HM) ordered the Weiss Manfréd factory to design the vehicle. The preliminary blueprints for the Tas prototypes were ready in record time, by the end of August 1943. In the same year, a group of military experts from the Institute of Military Technology of the Hungarian Army (HTI) travelled to Kummersdorf, Germany where they inspected the infamous Tiger and Panther tanks. However, these tanks were not shown to them from the inside. Since they were the only Hungarians to see the legendary German vehicles from up close in the given year, 3 HTI specialist officers took part in the design of the Tas from the very beginning. The blueprints with all of the necessary data and budget plans were finished by 3 December 1943, with photos of the 1:10 scale metal mockup of the new vehicle being given to the HTI on 6 December 1943. The vehicle ended up looking very similar to the Panther. The new heavy tank was named ‘Tas’ in honour of one of the Seven Chieftains of the Magyars (Hungarians). The HM accepted the plans and production of the iron sample vehicle started in May 1944. Construction of the prototype vehicle progressed slowly because it was not based on any existing tank, being a completely unique design. Furthermore, the tank had thick 75 and 120 mm  armour plates that had to be welded together – whilst the Toldi light tanks had welded armour too, it had very thin armour plates, therefore welding these much thicker armour plates together was a relatively new, challenging method for the engineers. The engineers constantly discovered newer and newer problems which needed addressing. Constant material shortages and Allied bombing raids didn’t help either. The chassis of the Tas' iron sample vehicle was ready in June 1944 with a fully operational suspension system and the engines installed, with the turret's construction underway. Unfortunately, on 27 July 1944 an Allied bombing raid hit and seriously damaged the Weiss Manfréd factory. The production hall where the Tas was being made collapsed and the iron prototype vehicle completely burned out and was destroyed. The Hungarians tried to restart the project at Ganz factory but they didn't have enough time to actually start the rebuilding of the prototype. Not much progress was made on restarting the Tas project before the Soviets invaded Hungary, capturing vital factories, crushing all hope to finish the project.

 

The Design of the Tas:

 

The suspension of the Tas was a native design, using 3 × two wheel bogies with leaf springs and shock absorbers. It had 6 medium sized road wheels, a drive wheel at the front and an idler wheel at the rear, with 5 return rollers above the road wheels. The same layout would be found on the other side. This suspension system would likely result in a smooth ride for the vehicle and its crew, whilst providing a more stable platform for firing on the move.

When it came to the engine, the Hungarians didn’t have many engines to choose from. At first, building a new V12 engine for the tank, with at least 700 hp, was considered, but unlike with the more industrialised major powers, this option was not very likely for Hungary as it would have taken too much time, resources and capacity, to design and build a powerful new engine. Instead, the engineers decided that the Tas would be powered by 2 × 8 cylinder Weiss Manfréd Z-V8H-4 gasoline engines from the Turán I/II (as both Turáns used the same engine). Each engine provided 260 hp (195 kW) for a total of 520 hp (390 kW). This choice had the benefits of using already tested engines in production and there were available spare parts for this engine, unlike with a new engine, which would also take a long time to develop, switch to producing and would not be compatible with other Hungarian tanks.

The drawback of this choice is that 520 hp for a tank that would weigh around 38 tonnes, would result in only around 13.68 hp/tonne, which is somewhat low. It was estimated this would give the Tas a top speed of 45 km/h and an operational range of 200 km. However, the actual mobility of the Tas may have been a little worse though, as when using two engines together to power one gearbox, some power is usually lost. Although it is still possible that the Tas could achieve these speeds as some tanks could still reach similar speeds with similar power-to-weight ratios.

 

The hull of the Tas resembled the Panther’s hull, but with notable differences such as a frontal mid plate and angled corners joining the upper front plate to the upper sides of the hull. According to a surviving drawing of the hull armour thicknesses, the front of the hull of the Tas would have a heavily sloped 75 mm thick upper front plate, a 100/120 mm thick mid plate at a slight slope and a heavily sloped 75 mm thick lower plate. The Tas had sloped, angled corners of the upper front plate, but their thicknesses are unknown, although some estimate them to be 50 mm. The sides of the hull were protected by 50 mm of sloped armour above the tracks and 50 mm vertical armour behind the tracks. The upper section of the rear of the hull would be 100 mm thick with a slight slope and the lower section of the rear would be 50/75 mm at a decent slope. The belly and deck (underside and top of the hull) were both 20 mm thick.

Many sources list the maximum armour thickness as 120 mm so this seems to be the correct value for the mid front plate. Also it may have been increased from the original 100 mm or there might be some contradicting information. The hull was welded together which, when combined with its thick armour, meant the vehicle would have very good protection, even better than that of the German Panther (the Panther had welded but thinner armour).

Not as much is known about the turret armour thicknesses as mostly only written documents survived. However, the rough armour thickness seems to be 100 mm all around, although the rear of the turret is listed as 50 mm thick rather than 100 mm thick in one source. It seems that the front of the turret would actually be 200 mm thick in total as the mantlet thickness is said to be 100 mm thick as well. The turret had a somewhat octagonal shape with a large, wide and curved gun mantlet, like that of the Panther A/D, but larger, covering the whole turret front. On top of the turret was a cupola with a hatch for the commander and another hatch for the gunner.

 

According to the original plans and the 1:10 scale metal mockup, the Tas would be armed with an 80 mm main gun – the 80 mm (3.15 in) 29/44M L/58 gun. Developed by DIMÁVAG, this was a heavily modified, licence produced derivative of the 80 mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun (which the Hungarians used as the 80 mm 29/38M L/48 anti-air gun). The 1:10 scale mockup of the Tas was modelled with this 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun. The first prototype of the 29/44M gun was ready in October 1943, however during its first firing trials some serious flaws were revealed, requiring further development to fix. Thanks to this, it was estimated that the mass production of this 80 mm gun could not start earlier than the summer of 1944, therefore a temporary/stopgap main armament for the Tas prototypes had to be chosen. The engineers selected a 75 mm gun for this – the 7.5 cm 43.M tank gun. This is the same 75 mm gun which was used on the Turán III and the Zrínyi I. Since the 7.5 cm 43.M gun already had 2 finished examples, the production of the gun would go more smoothly than waiting for the 80 mm tank gun to be developed and then produced. With the 75 mm gun, the finished sample vehicle made of iron could be tested in the field and could easily be modified later to mount the 80 mm gun which was predicted to be ready by the time a serial vehicle made of armour plates would be finished. Ultimately, due to material shortages, the third 7.5 cm 43.M gun was never finished by the time the Tas prototypes were destroyed by Allied bombing and the DIMÁVAG factory which produced the gun was later captured by the Soviets. Both the 80 mm and 75 mm guns had gun depression and elevation angles of -9° and +20° respectively.

The planned 80 mm tank gun would have likely performed quite a bit better than the 75 mm gun, as the Hungarians wouldn't have bothered trying to develop it and make it the main armament of the Tas, if it wouldn't be a noticeable improvement over the 75 mm gun.

 

Not too much is known about the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun, although according to one source, the penetration is estimated to be 171.4 mm and it can fire AP (probably APCBC or APHE rather than solid AP) and HE. From another source,  some details can be found about the ammunition that the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun can fire; it says it can fire 29/35.M páncélgránát (APHEBC-T) shells, with a mass of  8 kg and an explosive filler of  Pentolite 50/50 (mix of 50% TNT and 50% PETN). It also says this gun can fire HE, but doesn't provide details on the HE shell. Both sources say the 80 mm 29/44M L/58 had a muzzle velocity of 872 m/s for its AP (APHEBC-T according to the second source) shell. They both also state the ammunition capacity as 50-80 rounds for the 80 mm gun.

 

The Tas was also armed with a coaxial machine gun – an 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M. A second machine gun placed in the front of the hull and controlled by the radio operator was also considered although it is not present on the mockup photos – it may have been removed from the design or it may have been added after the mockup photos were made.

The 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M machine gun (also called 1934/40.M or 34/40M) is a gas-operated Hungarian tank machine gun. It is chambered for 8x56mmR and is belt fed. Its muzzle velocity is 730 m/s and its rate of fire is 1000 rounds per minute, although these are given as 750 m/s and 950 rpm respectively in the same document but referenced to a different source. According to this source, the Tas seems to be able to take 3000 rounds of machine gun ammunition in 100 round belts. Reportedly, the unique sound of these Gebauers brought fear to the Soviet soldiers on the Eastern Front. All captured useable Gebauer machine guns were taken by the Red Army back to the USSR.

 

Why add the 44M Tas to War Thunder?

 

There are many good reasons the 44M Tas should be added to War Thunder, firstly from a gameplay perspective, it would be the first heavy tank in the Italian tree, thus being vital for completing heavy tank challenges. The Tas would also have a unique playstyle for Italian tanks as it would finally give Italy a well-armoured WW2 vehicle that can rely on its strong armour, unlike their endless unarmoured trucks, cars and light tanks, or their numerous average armour tanks and SPGs. It would also be a vital part of Italy’s mid tier WW2 tanks, completing their 4.7 lineup (if it becomes a 4.7 tank). Since the Tas is from a minor nation, is a completely unique/indigenous design, most people haven’t heard of it, and it is a capable mid tier vehicle (rather than some low tier one), it would make for an interesting new addition for people to learn about, and an enjoyable vehicle to play. From a symbolic perspective, it is the only true Hungarian heavy tank, and the only true heavy tank from any minor nation. Considering it is also the best tank ever made by a minor nation during WW2, it should certainly have a place in this game. From a historical perspective, the Tas was an impressive accomplishment for Hungarian tank design and had a unique story cut short by the fate of history and the tide of the Second World War. It has been largely forgotten with few people knowing it ever existed. Why should we let such an impressive feat and design for a minor nation be forgotten when we have the perfect place for this vehicle to live on in and demonstrate its capabilities in?

 

How would the Tas be added to War Thunder?

 

Since all future Hungarian vehicles have been confirmed to be coming to the Italian tree, it is safe to assume the Tas will be added to the Italian tree under a Hungarian flag. It could be added as a researchable vehicle in a Hungarian sub tree for Italy, like how Finnish vehicles got added as a sub tree for Sweden. It could also be added as a premium tank for Golden Eagles, likely costing somewhere around 1750-2980 GE. This option would perfectly fill in Italy's massive premium tank gap from the 3.7 Panzer IV G to the 6.3 M26 "D.C.Ariete" (fitting nicely between these at around 4.7). Another option would be to add the Tas as an event premium vehicle or a battle pass vehicle, however I don’t think these options are the right choice for the Tas as they would seriously limit how many people can get this already forgotten tank – it shouldn’t be forgotten in War Thunder too. Furthermore, battle pass and event premiums are usually strange, unconventional and experimental vehicles – the Tas doesn’t fit this trend as it is a conventional tank, it is like the Hungarian equivalent of the Tiger I or Panther so I would recommend adding the Tas as a researchable vehicle or as a GE premium vehicle.

I wanted both the 75 mm (75 mm 43.M) and 80 mm (80 mm 29/44M L/58) guns to be options for the Tas, but a moderator told me only to suggest the 75 mm gun and not the 80 mm gun because prototype vehicles (planned to have the 75 mm gun) were built, but production vehicles (planned to have the 80 mm gun) weren't.  Which guns the Tas gets is Gaijin's choice in the end. If they do decide to consider the 80 mm gun, t he Tas could be added as one tank with access to both guns or as two separate tanks with one having the 75 mm gun and the other having the 80 mm gun (at a higher BR like 5.3).

 

Another choice to consider is what battle rating (BR) the Tas should be. I think the Tas (with the 75 mm gun) should be a BR 4.7 vehicle, or possibly even a 4.3. My justification for this is that the Tas uses the same gun (75 mm 43.M) as the Zrínyi I (BR 4.0), but it has better armour and a turret. Because of the better armour and being turreted, the Tas should be at a higher BR than the Zrínyi I, but not at too high of a BR, or else its gun would be useless at such a tier. We can think of the Tas as having the gun of a 4.0 tank and the armour of a 5.0 tank, so the tank should overall be a 4.3 or 4.7 vehicle – at a lower BR than this the Tas' armour would be too strong, but at a higher BR than this the Tas' gun would be too weak.

 

The last thing to consider would be whether the Tas should be classed as a heavy tank or a medium tank. I think it should be a heavy tank – whilst the Tas is similar to the Panther which is classed as a medium, the Tas has better armour than the Panther, is a little bit slower, and has a 75 mm gun that is not as strong as the Panther's very powerful main gun. Since the Panther is already considered a medium/heavy hybrid, the fact that the Tas is more armoured and a little bit slower is enough to class it as a heavy tank. Furthermore, Hungary classed the Tas as a heavy tank and when you look at the Tas from a minor nation's point of view, it was the most armoured WW2 tank ever made by any minor nation. Also, heavy tank classification is not based on a specific weight or armour thickness, but more so on what the vehicle prioritises. Since the Tas clearly prioritised armour and firepower over mobility, just like any other heavy tank, it should be classed as one. After all, the Italian P26/40 was classed as a heavy tank whilst weighing a puny 26 tonnes and having poor protection, with its thickest armour being only 60 mm. Contrast that to the 36.6 or 38 tonne Tas with 120 mm thick angled armour plates and around a 200 mm thick turret front. Another example is how the Sherman Jumbo (M4A3E2) is classed as a heavy tank in War Thunder, whilst only weighing 37.8 tonnes – the Tas weighs around this much as well, with similarly good armour and a better gun. From a gameplay point of view the Tas should also be classed as a heavy tank because Italy doesn't have any heavy tanks in their entire tree. At least if the Italian tree had the Tas, Italy players could complete heavy tank challenges.

 

What would it be like in War Thunder?

 

The Tas would likely be played somewhat like a Panther, using strong frontal armour to take hits whilst returning fire with a capable gun and then repositioning/flanking using decent mobility. Tas players would have to hide their weak side armour and make sure not to be flanked. Also the Tas’ 20 mm thick deck armour would be vulnerable to CAS aircraft with AP belts and cannons. The Tas would have pretty similar mobility to the Panther, however it would likely have a much better reverse speed, possibly being able to go backwards as fast as it can drive forwards. This is because Hungarian tanks in general usually have good reverse speeds (e.g. Turán and Zrínyi tanks), and considering the Tas is powered by two of the Turán’s engines, it will likely also inherit the Turán’s ability to reverse as fast as it can go forwards. This is also supported by a source claiming the Tas had 5 forward gears and 5 reverse gears. The Tas would be like a more armoured Panther, with roughly the same mobility and a weaker gun (the 75 mm 43.M gun) – therefore we can say it would be like a Panther-Tiger hybrid. Since the Tas prioritises armour over mobility, it should be classed as a heavy tank (it was classed as one in real life). The 44M Tas (prototype) with the 75 mm 43.M gun, likely at 4.7, would fit nicely into the Italy 4.7 ground lineup alongside the M4 Tipo IC, 75/46 M43 Semovente, Breda 501, SM.92 and C.205 serie 3.

 

Details of the Tas' guns and how these would perform in War Thunder:

 

The 75 mm 43.M tank gun is already in War Thunder as the Zrínyi I's main gun, so its characteristics when mounted on the Tas should be identical, apart from reload time which can be lowered for the Tas to compensate for it having the same gun as a 4.0 TD at a higher BR such as 4.7. From this source, the gun depression and elevation angles on the 44M Tas seem to be -9° and +20° respectively. I was asked by a forum moderator to not suggest the 44M Tas' planned 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun for production vehicles here, as production vehicles armed with the 80 mm gun never made it into production. I have left information about this 80 mm gun in the 'Design of the Tas' section above just in case, however the 80 mm gun is not being suggested for addition to War Thunder, only the 75 mm gun (for prototype vehicles) is being suggested for addition into the game. With that being said, the 44M Tas (prototype) with the 75 mm gun (likely at 4.7) might struggle to penetrate well-armoured tanks in an uptier, although it probably could still destroy such tanks from the sides or by shooting their weak points.

 

The Tas' secondary armament – the Hungarian 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M tank machine gun – seems to already be in War Thunder as the 34/40M, however from the in-game image this instead looks like a 1934/37A M or a 1934A M machine gun. Also its in-game rate of fire is 900 rpm, whereas my main source says the rate of fire was 1000 or 950 rpm. I’m not sure what the muzzle velocity is in-game but according to my source it should be 730 or 750 m/s. The belt capacity of 100 rounds seems to be correct.

 

Below you can see what War Thunder's 34/40M looks like compared to the real 34/40M, as well as the gun that Gaijin likely modelled instead of the 34/40M:

Reveal hidden contents

The 34/40M (Gebauer 1934/40A M) in War Thunder:

 

The Gebauer 1934/40A M (also called 34/40M or 34/40A) in real life. This is what War Thunder's 34/40M should look like:

 

Two Gebauer 1934/37A M machine guns (in a twin gun mount). War Thunder's 34/40M looks like this gun instead:

 

In War Thunder the Tas would have a coaxial 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M (also called 1934/40.M or 34/40M) machine gun which would be vital for destroying trucks and open-top vehicles. A second machine gun in the front of the hull (controlled by the radio operator) was also considered during development so the Tas might also get this second machine gun, although this likely won’t be as useful as the coaxial one as it would only be able to fire in the direction that the hull is facing. According to this source, the Tas seems to be able to take 3000 rounds of machine gun ammunition in 100 round belts – this is plenty of machine gun ammunition in War Thunder. Reportedly, the unique sound of these machine guns brought fear to the Soviet soldiers on the Eastern Front, however I have no idea what these guns sounded like so what they would sound like in War Thunder is up to Gaijin to decide.

^{Above from left to right: the Gebauer 1934/40A M, a cross-section diagram of the Gebauer 1934/40A M, the feeding system of the Gebauer 1934/40A M. These images can be found in large at the end of this post under the gallery section.}

 

 

If you want to see more about this tank, watch ConeOfArc's video on the 44M Tas:

 

Sources used:

I use brackets like these {note} at the end of sources for any notes about the sources.

 

• Németh, Károly (18 May 2017). "44M Tas" . Tank Encyclopedia . {An encyclopedia website about tanks, this article being specifically on the 44M Tas. At the bottom of the article can be found a full list of the sources used in the article.}
• Jacky 95 (12 April 2018). "The 44.M Tas Prototype Heavy Tank" . Hungarianmilitaryww2 . {A website about the 44M Tas, includes lots of detailed information, mostly reliable although not fully.}
• Pap, Péter (28 September 2012).  "ADATTÁR GEBAUER FERENC FEGYVERKONSTRUKTŐR PÁLYAFUTÁSÁHOZ ÉS AZ ÁLTALA TERVEZETT LŐFEGYVEREK KATEGORIZÁLÁSA"  [Data Repository on the career of firearms designer Ferenc Gebauer and the categorisation of the firearms designed by him] (PDF). Hadtörténelmi Közlemények a Hadtörténeti Intézet és Múzeum folyóirata (in Hungarian). 125 (3) – via epa.oszk.hu. {A journal source, contains information on the Gebauer machine gun that the 44M Tas would have had as its secondary armament and its ammunition, contains references to where the information is from.}

 

Sources I only used for a few sentences:

 

• Németh, Károly (27 October 2014). "Hungarian Branch in WoT – Part 4: Tas medium tank" . For the Record . {An article specifically on the 44M Tas}
• Németh, Károly (4 February 2014). "88mm Hungarian Tas? Nope…" . For the Record . {An article specifically on the 44M Tas and misconceptions about it. At the bottom of the article can be found a list of the sources used in the article.}
• ( 9 June 2013 ). "44M Tas - Wikipedia" . Wikipedia .

 

 

 

Now, over to you. What are your thoughts on the 44M Tas? Do you think it should be added to War Thunder?

 

 

Gallery:

 

Below is an image of the 44M Tas' scale model next to that of the Tur án II. Below that is an image showing the Tas' 1:10 scale mockup from more angles, and below that is a drawing of the hull armour thicknesses and dimensions of the Tas (the thicknesses may have been changed after this drawing was made, so it may be outdated), then a drawing of the hull and suspension of the Tas with dimensions, followed by another drawing of the Tas' hull. Below those are two images of a model of the Tas, showing what it could have looked like when battle-ready (credits to Mig Eater for this model). Below those are three images of the Tas' machine gun, the 8 mm Gebauer 1934/40A M. The first of these images shows the gun itself, the second image shows a cross-section diagram of the machine gun and the third image shows the feeding system and ammunition of the Gebauer 1934/40A M.

Note that images of the 44M Tas show it with the 80 mm gun whereas in my suggestion I am only able to suggest the 75 mm gun.

I want to see it in the game as a part of italian tt or pre tank 

[atta26hu 108]

17 hours ago, Victory_799@psn said:

I agree it's really impressive how Hungary, a minor nation, could design such a powerful tank that was on the level of German/Soviet tank design, despite having a far smaller industry. This was one of my reasons for making this suggestion. Yes it's true that this tank took inspiration from the Panther, but also from the T-34. I like how the Hungarians took the best aspects of the Panther (e.g. good gun, good armour design, decent mobility) and got rid of the complicated and unnecessary parts (e.g. complicated suspension).

 

As for the armour, it is up to Gaijin to decide which values to use. I have updated the turret armour section as my sources also said that the turret was 100 mm thick all around, but when I watched ConeOfArc's video on the Tas, he said he found one source listing the turret rear as 50 mm, but he said "I have no idea where that figure came from". I changed the wording to reflect how 100 mm all around seems to be the correct value, but for the turret rear a source saying it was 50 mm thick was found.

 

You say that 4.7 would be too low for the Tas because the Churchill VII is also at 4.7 but is slower and has a weaker gun, but the Churchill VII has a bit better armour, especially on the sides where it is almost 2x as thick as the Tas' side armour. Overall the Churchill VII is better protected, so I think that the Tas (with 75 mm) could be justified at 4.7, or at 5.0, but not 5.3 because at 5.0 and 5.3 the Tas can face Tiger Is, Tiger IIs, Jagdpanthers and IS-2s – with its 75 mm gun it would be almost hopeless frontally against these.  

True, the churchill is better armoured all around except for the rear hull. I dont know, I think it would be really good at 4.7 but we will see i guess.

 

And to the people who dont know, the 29/44.M 8,0 cm Bofors gun was a further developed 29/38.M Bofors gun.  The gun was 4585 mm long, with a barrel that was 815mm longer than the 29/38.M gun, it had a caliber of L/58 but more precisely its 57,3. It could shoot higher than the 29/38.M so that it could reach the bombers and the rounds velocity was 862 m/s, which was more faster than the 29/38.M round.

 

And in late 1943 the gun and its munition was manufactured and was ready for the tests. In spring in 1944 they made the first shots. So it was built.

 

My source is here http://real-j.mtak.hu/11727/1/Haditechnika_2006.pdf  at page 544. And at page 453 there are more pictures about the size of the tank and about the suspension if someones interested.

Edited March 23, 2023 by atta26hu

[jon_man1199 563]

11 minutes ago, atta26hu said:

True, the churchill is better armoured all around except for the rear hull. I dont know, I think it would be really good at 4.7 but we will see i guess.

 

And to the people who dont know, the 29/44.M 8,0 cm Bofors gun was a further developed 29/38.M Bofors gun.  The gun was 4585 mm long, with a barrel that was 815mm longer than the 29/38.M gun, it had a caliber of L/58 but more precisely its 57,3. It could shoot higher than the 29/38.M so that it could reach the bombers and the rounds velocity was 862 m/s, which was more faster than the 29/38.M round.

 

And in late 1943 the gun and its munition was manufactured and was ready for the tests. In spring in 1944 they made the first shots. So it was built.

 

My source is here http://real-j.mtak.hu/11727/1/Haditechnika_2006.pdf  at page 544. And at page 453 there are more pictures about the size of the tank and about the suspension if someones interested.

So, at this point we've pretty much confirmed that the 29/44M was indeed built and tested, and that it was intended for the 44m tas (which is actually common knowledge). I'd say that fits the requirements but then again that is up to the mods.

[RavenousElf 13]

On 22/03/2023 at 03:17, Thatz said:

Not banned just removed anything from that list can be re suggested unless paper or otherwise stated.

 

There are more sources stating the factory that the tank was being made in was leveled by allied bombing before they ever fitted it to the tank at the time of the bombing they only ever fitted the 75mm on the prototype, the tank never got to the production stage. https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/06/03/44m-tas-panthers-hungarian-cousin/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/44M_Tas

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/06/17/hungarian-armor-part-1-44m-tas-and-tas-rohamloveg/

 

It was bombed before the 80mm was ever fitted on the tank and at the time of the bombing on some of the sources it would of been fitted with the 75mm as they made the choice to fit the 75mm. The finished product being the 75mm prototype

 

I'm 95% you were also told the same thing last time you wanted to make the suggestion.

 

 

First of all, allow me to apologize for any overly-aggressive behavior, I have been grinding British low-tier and it hasn't been going well. Now, onto the show

 

By this logic, the E-100 should be removed since not only was it's intended turret never built, but it was never equipped with the Maus's turret either. The E-100 is even less realistic than the already removed Tiger II 105mm and Panther II. And let's not forget that the Ho-Ri was never constructed, ever, the only part of it that was actually built was the gun. Again should be removed. And let's not get into how the in-game, during actual matches, the 6-pounder struggles to penetrate even the Panzer IV and Panzer II while historically it was able to penetrate them with ease. And let's not forget the reload speed of the Sturmtiger and KV-2, the former having it's heavily buffed and the latter having it's heavily nerfed. Yes, I am aware that the 2-3 rounds per minute of the KV-2 is in the best absolute condition, but so are the reload rates of most tanks in the game. Speaking of the KV-2, the AC shell was removed despite being used by it in small numbers and the Howitzer version of the gun quite commonly. Instead, it received SAPBC shells, shells which neither the KV-2 nor the Howitzer ever used.

 

Don't You dare use the "But the tank never reached the production stage" as an argument - especially when so many prototype vehicles and one-off vehicles are in the game, vehicles that never reached production. If I was aggressive before, this single line made me at least 10 time more so.

 

And this is but a tiny, tiny fraction of the things that do not comply with Your logic and arguments and are historically inaccurate.

[Mahiwew 529]

7 minutes ago, RavenousElf said:

First of all, allow me to apologize for any overly-aggressive behavior, I have been grinding British low-tier and it hasn't been going well. Now, onto the show

 

By this logic, the E-100 should be removed since not only was it's intended turret never built, but it was never equipped with the Maus's turret either. The E-100 is even less realistic than the already removed Tiger II 105mm and Panther II. And let's not forget that the Ho-Ri was never constructed, ever, the only part of it that was actually built was the gun. Again should be removed. And let's not get into how the in-game, during actual matches, the 6-pounder struggles to penetrate even the Panzer IV and Panzer II while historically it was able to penetrate them with ease. And let's not forget the reload speed of the Sturmtiger and KV-2, the former having it's heavily buffed and the latter having it's heavily nerfed. Yes, I am aware that the 2-3 rounds per minute of the KV-2 is in the best absolute condition, but so are the reload rates of most tanks in the game. Speaking of the KV-2, the AC shell was removed despite being used by it in small numbers and the Howitzer version of the gun quite commonly. Instead, it received SAPBC shells, shells which neither the KV-2 nor the Howitzer ever used.

 

Don't You dare use the "But the tank never reached the production stage" as an argument - especially when so many prototype vehicles and one-off vehicles are in the game, vehicles that never reached production. If I was aggressive before, this single line made me at least 10 time more so.

 

And this is but a tiny, tiny fraction of the things that do not comply with Your logic and arguments and are historically inaccurate.

E-100 was never a common vehicle in War Thunder, it is practically removed because there currently isn’t any way to obtain it.

[RavenousElf 13]

15 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

E-100 was never a common vehicle in War Thunder, it is practically removed because there currently isn’t any way to obtain it.

Yes, but it still in the game. And we are talking about if a vehicle should be added or not.

[Mahiwew 529]

6 minutes ago, RavenousElf said:

Yes, but it still in the game. And we are talking about if a vehicle should be added or not.

No removed vehicle is ever truly removed. People who owned the vehicle before removal always get to keep it. 
The only exceptions are the CV90105 TML, which got replaced by another CV90 variant, and that German minelaying boat, which was never owned by anyone, rather being leased to players for testing.

 

To remove any vehicle from the game fully would be to waste the time and/or money invested in obtaining said vehicle. Especially for the E-100 this would be insulting, as it was a price for winning certain tournaments.

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

If you wind up having to remove the 80mm poll question (a silly thing), be sure to screenshot it right before removing it at the last possible moment so you have a record of just how much support you had for that aspect of the suggestion. It can be used to bolster a future argument for it.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

16 hours ago, Thatz said:

The 48 hours is still going on, there is little to no evidence to state that the 80mm gun was made specifically for this tank. I have been able to find too many conflicting sources that conflict on the origin reason for the gun to be made and I have spoken to other suggestion moderators and they have done their own independent research and came to the same conclusion.

@Thatz can we pause the 48 hours or extend it or something? Most people voted for the 80 mm gun to be added and there is a long ongoing discussion here about it, many people support it being added and bring up good points so it is still being discussed, surely we should wait before doing something. After all, shouldn't the players get to decide what goes into the game they play?

 

I don't know if the 80 mm gun was made specifically for the Tas or not, but the first prototype of the gun was made in late 1943, so the date does suggest it was made for the Tas. Considering the original plans, blueprints and scale mockup photos of the Tas showed it with this 80 mm 29/44M L/58 gun, this clearly shows that they intended the 80 mm gun to be the Tas' main gun, and this also suggests that this 80 mm gun was made for the Tas. But surely it doesn't matter whether the 80 mm gun was made specifically for the Tas or not, the MG 151s were not made specifically for the Re. 2005, yet it still gets them because those were its cannons, the same should apply for the Tas, it should get the gun that it should (and would at some point) have gotten. And what about the Yak 141's IRST that was added into the game which seems to never have been made and it was given IRST on the basis of it may have been given it if it goes into production, whereas the Tas was always planned to have the 80 mm and the 80 mm gun was actually made.

 

I still don't see why I can't suggest the 80 mm gun, the gun was real, the tank was real, the gun was the main armament of the tank. Please don't remove my suggestion.

[Victory_799@psn 101]

16 hours ago, WayOfTheWolk said:

Just to clarify something this "80mm" gun is in fact just a license built Bofors 75mm Model 1929 AA gun. The Hungarians have this tradition of rounding up the caliber of their guns for some reason. That said the 44M Tas did fully intend to use the gun furthermore the 43.M 75mm was just a stop gap solution for the prototype until the design team could complete the gun cradle for the 75mm M1929.  I honestly don't see the issue to having the production version in the tech tree even if the gun was technically never mounted. We have multiple prototype aircraft in the game that were never fitted with their intended armament but that hasn't stopped Gaijin before. 

No, that's just wrong. This 80 mm gun is an 80.0 mm gun, not a 75 mm gun. And no it is not a licence built Bofors 75mm Model 1929 AA gun. Let me explain the confusion: The Swedish developed the Bofors 75mm Model 1929 AA gun, but also developed an almost identical 80 mm AA gun version. The Hungarians purchased some 80 mm AA gun versions, and I think the licence too. The Hungarians either used/licence made this gun under the Hungarian designation of 29/38M AA gun, or they modified the Swedish 80 mm and named the new modified gun the 29/38M AA gun. Then to develop this 80 mm 29/38M AA gun further, they heavily modified the 29/38M gun and they named the new gun the 29/44M gun. So the 29/44M gun is not a 75 mm gun and is not a licence built Bofors gun either. I also don't know what you mean about a "Hungarian tradition of rounding up gun calibres", I have never come across such a thing or any examples of it.

 

However, I do agree with the second part of your comment. There really is no good reason for not allowing the 80 mm gun in War Thunder.

[Thatz 637]

42 minutes ago, Victory_799@psn said:

Thatz can we pause the 48 hours or extend it or something? Most people voted for the 80 mm gun to be added and there is a long ongoing discussion here about it, many people support it being added and bring up good points so it is still being discussed, surely we should wait before doing something. After all, shouldn't the players get to decide what goes into the game they play?

There's nothing to really discuss sadly people bringing up vehicles or features that are in-game that are a-historical is irrelevant and would be off-topic as suggestions have their own rules/guidelines that are somewhat different from what gets added into the game. I can't really extend it as if I extend it for you I would have to extend it for everybody I give 48 hours to. Normally we don't even give 48 hours but it was a small fix that I though could easily be changed within 48 hours. I'm not asking to remove all your information on the 80mm just the poll for it.

 

[Victory_799@psn 101]

14 minutes ago, Thatz said:

There's nothing to really discuss sadly people bringing up vehicles or features that are in-game that are a-historical is irrelevant and would be off-topic as suggestions have their own rules/guidelines that are somewhat different from what gets added into the game. I can't really extend it as if I extend it for you I would have to extend it for everybody I give 48 hours to. Normally we don't even give 48 hours but it was a small fix that I though could easily be changed within 48 hours. I'm not asking to remove all your information on the 80mm just the poll for it.

 

Ok, I shall change it now then. 

Edit: done.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Victory_799@psn

[JamesPond1200@psn 299]

I am very disappointed in the outcome of this discussion. I hope clearer heads will prevail and the 80mm gun will be allowed to return, as there is absolutely no reason for it to not be here. 

[jon_man1199 563]

Just now, JamesPond1200@psn said:

I am very disappointed in the outcome of this discussion. I hope clearer heads will prevail and the 80mm gun will be allowed to return, as there is absolutely no reason for it to not be here. 

Agreed, at least the suggestion will stay open though and we can continue to discuss and find sources on the potential addition of the 80mm as was originally intended for this tank. 

[RavenousElf 13]

5 hours ago, Mahiwew said:

No removed vehicle is ever truly removed. People who owned the vehicle before removal always get to keep it. 
The only exceptions are the CV90105 TML, which got replaced by another CV90 variant, and that German minelaying boat, which was never owned by anyone, rather being leased to players for testing.

 

To remove any vehicle from the game fully would be to waste the time and/or money invested in obtaining said vehicle. Especially for the E-100 this would be insulting, as it was a price for winning certain tournaments.

Yes, What I am aware that removed means just being unable to be obtained by players that joined after it was removed. I am not suggesting that the E-100 should be removed, You have missed my intention completely. I was trying to point out how ridicilous and flexible the standards seem to be.

 

Edit: Yes, I am aware removed just means being unable to be obtained by players that joined after it was removed. I am not suggesting that the E-100 should be removed, You have missed my intention completely. I was trying to point out how ridicilous and flexible the standards seem to be.

Edited March 23, 2023 by RavenousElf
I made spelling errors and... sentence making errors. My brain is almost dead from Grinding British low-tier.

[RavenousElf 13]

31 minutes ago, Thatz said:

There's nothing to really discuss sadly people bringing up vehicles or features that are in-game that are a-historical is irrelevant and would be off-topic as suggestions have their own rules/guidelines that are somewhat different from what gets added into the game. I can't really extend it as if I extend it for you I would have to extend it for everybody I give 48 hours to. Normally we don't even give 48 hours but it was a small fix that I though could easily be changed within 48 hours. I'm not asking to remove all your information on the 80mm just the poll for it.

 

I disagree that it is irrelevant to point out how inconsistent the standards seem to be and the desperate need of solid ones.