IDS Marineflieger BR Belongs at 10.7

[seedship 26]

I didn't notice the BR changes (it wasn't mentioned on social media and felt like it was snuck in) so I didn't get a chance to voice my disagreement in it's nerf.

 

Let's compare the IDS Marineflieger to the F4-F Phantom, which is 10.7.

 

In bombload, the F4-F phantom has the IDS beat, the IDS Marineflieger can carry 12x 1000lbs while the phantom can carry 12x 500lb + 11x 750lb max. Plus, the phantom has access to guided munitions vs tanks: AGM65s, while the Marineflieger's anti ship missile does not work on tanks and is finicky on ships.

 

In maneuverability, the F4-F can turn circles on the Marineflieger, not to mention the Marineflieger rips it's wings much easier. The Marineflieger loses in a guns only dogfight to pretty much every other plane at it's BR. Both carry flares and it can be argued their air to air missile loadouts are comparable -- the aim 9Js are inferior to the aim9Ls by a modest margin but the F4-F gets twice as many.

 

The only thing the Marineflieger really had going for it was 2x Aim 9Ls, but let's compare it to the A-10A Early, A-10A Late, and A6 Tram. The A-10A early admittedly has much lower top speed, but is also a full BR lower, while having the same missile loadout. The A-10A late has twice as many Aim 9Ls at 0.7 BR lower, and the A6E tram can carry up to 4 Aim9Ls, but probably 3 + 1 flare pod and a full BR lower.

 

The IDS Marineflieger was balanced at 10.7 and has no business going up to 11.0.

Edited April 14, 2023 by seedship
Adding tags

[AmokAchim 121]

To me it was fine at 10.7 and it would theoretically also be fine at 11.0 if the matchmaker was fair. But now at 11.0 it will face uptiers to 12.0 most of the time and gonna get clapped.

[CodyBlues 323]

It really doesn’t make sense to me simply because it’s gonna have the same match making as the 11.3 tornados. No reason to fly it out anymore.

[Thodin 6,784]

I tried to fly it , but now it suffers exactly the same issue as the 11.3 Tornados. You get butchered by top tier jets, which are so much superior, that Tornado gameplay is impossible. Air to air is a lost cause with that poor FM and just two IR missiles. Unfortnately you also can't get close to bomb NPCs or bases, without beeing shot by long range radar missiles. You lack the maneuverability to nodge or evade otherwise. Also your wings are too fragile to reliably bank. I tested 2 matches, both were 12.0 uptiers. In all I was shot down without even seeing an enemy or beeing close to drop some bombs. The stupid map design with all NPC targets clustered up at one spot at the map center prevents any alternative approaches. Whenever you try to reach the bombing area, its PD  long range Sparrow time, means rip.

 

I lost my interest. Phantom carries more TNT equivalent for bases, is out of reach from 12.0 BR nonsense and has more missiles, even guided F&F ground ordnance and all the good stuff like a superior gun with alot more ammo.

 

You also can't use it in Ground Forces, since at 11.0 you face the same problem, its always facing max BR anti-air assets. While just having dumb 1000lb bombs like a WW2 attacker around 6.0 BR. Good luck getting over a target to bomb it without beeing shot by Pantsir etc. Irl Marine could mount HARM missiles to their Tornados, maybe this addition would make it viable if GFRB? Right now its just some 1000 lb's at almost max BR, thats nuts and I really ask myself why is it so? 1000lb's are really no 11.0 worthy weapon system whatsoever. Comparable strikers have standoff F&F ordnance and laser guided ammunitions. Tornado has to fly right above target to drop some unguided bombs??? Something isn't right here.

 

Its only pro was the old BR, which was out of 12.0 top BR reach. Welp. Thx Gajin.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Thodin

[Wayne The Inquisition 5]

I Love to be food for F-16, F-14, F-4S, and to anything at this point, literally....

 

Whats the point for tornado to be played anymore, If it gets to base quickly it dies, if gets there mid match it dies. not much to do,

cant apply tactics to survive, cos If I start to play it safely, the game is at the end by that time, thanks to Furball gameplay at any-tier.

 

At this point only air spawn can save this jet. (Joke, it really cannot)

 

All I do at start of the match is Notch,Notch,Notch, aim for the ground base,... Notch, Die

I am literally, worthless as IDS to game as I cant get to do anything cos all games are 12.0 ALL

And that hyper focus from players is really neat, cos they know that I am just easiest kill they can get. LOVE IT

 

Thanks to our most generous, and wishful dev Gaijin who every time people find something enjoyable, they are there to ruin it.

Therefore I am not spending penny no more. I am considering quitting this awful, frustrating game that just hits your knee whenever u find fun.

 

Sincerely

Just another frustrated Tornado "enjoyer"

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

According to Smin the main reason for the uptier was very good performance in ground RB.

Pretty odd since it only has dumb bombs.

But yea, it's just as useless as the other Tornados in ARB now and since Germany has no 11.0 ground vehicle anyways, you are much better off with the ASSTA.

 

 

I really hope the 12.0 uptiers in ARB pull it back down to 10.7.

Just lower the income modifiers a bit.

 

Alternatively top tier could also go up to 12.3 imo.

A lot of 11.0s suffer from getting MiG-29d

Edited April 15, 2023 by NoodleCup31

[Al_Capwned 463]

I think it should have stayed at 10.7 and the other Tornados, apart from the F.3, should have moved down to 11.0.

[Thodin 6,784]

Gajin shouldn't have done that. I feel somethow that German stuff gets BR bumped too quickly in General. Even pathetic stuff like the Tornado, which simply can't be played vs. 12.0.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Thodin

[TheErichHartMann 16]

I agree to this topic. The tornado is now unplayable. and they also don't have IRIS-T IR Missiles who everabody knows, germany has assembled this new system on 1997. 25km range ect. And who is it??? last but not least, i know that cruise Missiles aren't not in the game for the moment, but the Taurus is also not on board. We need better Armament!!!!! And we know that germany has better Armament in the case.

[LinkXx 12]

it is unplayable now. With the introduction of the F4S, it was borderline at it's old 10.7 BR. But 9/10 matches being at 12.0 now, is an absolute joke.

[NoodleCup31 8,824]

15 hours ago, TheErichHartMann said:

I agree to this topic. The tornado is now unplayable. and they also don't have IRIS-T IR Missiles who everabody knows, germany has assembled this new system on 1997. 25km range ect. And who is it??? last but not least, i know that cruise Missiles aren't not in the game for the moment, but the Taurus is also not on board. We need better Armament!!!!! And we know that germany has better Armament in the case.

The Tornado should at the very least receive the German AIM-9L/I with IRCCM, especially since it has no radar missiles and only two 9Ls.

[seedship 26]

It seems there is a lot of agreement on this thread, can a community manager indicate if they read this and if they will take action? Or justify why not?

[Thodin 6,784]

Anyone found a way to use Komoran's in Ground RB? Is it possible to hit helis with these? Or lock anything on the ground?

[Godvana 533]

24 minutes ago, Thodin said:

Anyone found a way to use Komoran's in Ground RB? Is it possible to hit helis with these? Or lock anything on the ground?

 

I have hit helis with them before, but it's hardly an efficient or reliable way of killing them.

[Thodin 6,784]

18 hours ago, Godvana said:

 

I have hit helis with them before, but it's hardly an efficient or reliable way of killing them.

 

I played an evening with primary goal to spawn and to use the Marine Tornados. Cause in Air RB I noticed its possible to radar lock large ground structures like pillboxes. However, in GFRB I never had a ground lock an anything. So I tried to fire Komorans to attack Ka-50/52 etc.....but never achieved a hit. So ditched this, Komorans are utterly useless (why even include them...for what purpose please?).

 

For the remainder of the evening I tried to get over the battlefield to drop 1000lb bombs on targets, like a obsolete ww2 prop does it. But only managed to kill one single vehicle. Most maps were flat and open ones, so you have no terrain features to mask you approach. You get shot down instantly by top tier SPAAs or russian Vikhr helis. On Sands of Sinai I finally had rocky hills to approach the enemy map-half under cover and managed to kill a single Tor SPAA. Just to be shot down from a Vikhr from the enemy heliport. Aim-9L somehow can't lock and hit helis ....

 

I mean really? How can this thing be 11.0? It has nothing which does even remotely work on that br. Its br should be lowered to 10.3 to get it away from top tier SPAAs and Vikhr helis. I guess there are similar reasons if you consider Air RB. Its just a very basic plane without any advanced features or standoff weapons. Its somewhat fast and might drop dumb 1000 lb bombs...thats it.

 

The only way I see to maintain its BR of 11.0, is to grant it its HARM loadout, Marine Tornados typically used.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Thodin

[PacketlossRedux 595]

Gaijin killed the Kormorans, and than the Marineflieger. both pointless to use.

[Night_Trapper 1,649]

Almost every plane in the highest tiers is a target of criticism..
It may be that there are few players who can do it with those machines...

 

It is new information for me, but it also occurred to me in the past that the Air battle rating is evaluated based on the mode of ground forces..
How I'd love to see a window with planes and tanks for ground mods that don't interfere with air mods... !

 

Well, what can be done, I was looking forward to the Tornado going ARB, but it turns out like a lot of other jet machines ..

to research and maybe buy and maybe one day in the future to play ..

but playing with a machine that liquidates the account with lions is no competition able thanks br ..

it just doesn't make sense anymore..!

Edited April 22, 2023 by Night_Trapper

[resto-subaigu@psn 22]

I didn't read all but i'm SO SURPRISED !!! A topic where everybody has same advice !!!! No "skill issue" ... "you just don't know how to play it" ... etc ...

INCREDIBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Same thing for me, i played it 240 times, F5-C and F4-S were already a challenge (fun one, acceptable one) ... mig-29 is not really ...

Thank you gaijin Tornado IDS is DEAD !

Edited April 22, 2023 by resto-subaigu@psn

[Jonny_Mecheto 0]

Agree with all of that. Tornado RIP!

[CAW_CAW_CAW_CAW 4]

I hope it goes back to 10.7 or top tier get bumped up to 12.3

It's extremely unfun when your running a light loadout with full afterburners roaring and you still get run down by an F16.  Maybe I'm just bad, but it feels like there is absolutely nothing I can do when uptiered, which seems to happen more often than not.  Can't outgun, outrun, or outmaneuver much of anyone these days :/ 

[Gerhard_bar_ 85]

8 hours ago, CAW_CAW_CAW_CAW said:

I hope it goes back to 10.7 or top tier get bumped up to 12.3

It's extremely unfun when your running a light loadout with full afterburners roaring and you still get run down by an F16.  Maybe I'm just bad, but it feels like there is absolutely nothing I can do when uptiered, which seems to happen more often than not.  Can't outgun, outrun, or outmaneuver much of anyone these days :/ 

Let's just make the plunge and decompress  to 13.3 to save those lower tier early jets along with the 11.3 bracket premiums 

To the main point, I tried to fly the Tornado MFG at 11.0 and it's near impossible to do anything but pray. I heard/looked at some bug reports that it's missing a fair amount of AOA, ability to use the slates/flaps at 45/25% wing sweep, proper amount and separation for countermeasures. At this point I'm just wondering if they'll give the MFG/TT one Aim9L-i(has IRCCM) missiles so it's actually a threat for a moment. Shouldn't have gone to 11.0 in the first place. 

[Wayne The Inquisition 5]

Shall we compare MFG to something similar , like... Mig 27M, which is 11.0 , has INSANE loadout compared to MFG, has 4x R-60M, Guided ordinance , and its 11.0 and is actually a threat to ground forces..., capable of some dogfight at least. But nah, lets make MFG 11.0 LITERALLY SAME as MIG 27M isn't it right?