PGZ04A should be 8.7

[Vamilad 238]

It is functionally useless against the targets it faces at 9.3

 

 

[Vamilad 238]

This vehicle remains functionally useless at its BR Range.  It is incapable of engaging drones or helicopters with its weapons.  Its only use is against low flying planes, which is a shareable aspect with all other 8.3 SPAAs.  Since the missile will only hit AFK players at lower BR ranges there is no balancing justification to not lower it to 8.7 .

[Kallu609 8]

Honestly, since the HN6 missiles are absolutely useless the PGZ04A could easily be at 8.3 with PGZ09. In most cases the PGZ09 is actually much better since the 35mm guns are noticeably stronger, don't have as much trouble penetrating tanks and the explosive rounds have enough filler to actually work, it also gets the small but still useful APDS belt. Oh yeah it also moves faster than PGZ04.

I guess gaijin just automatically puts anything with SAMs to 9.0+ even when the missiles can't hit a plane flying straight

[CTCrusader 214]

On 26/05/2023 at 20:56, Vamilad said:

It is incapable of engaging drones or helicopters with its weapons.

So like every other IR missile ground based system in the game? IR based ground systems need a rework in general but if moved to 8.7 it would sh*t all over korean era jets with its manpads and won't be any better against helis due to the low heat they give off (for some reason). 

Edited May 29, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

8 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

So like every other IR missile ground based system in the game? 

 

Yes the majority of SPAA in the game is not capable of engaging air targets at their BR range.

 

I do not understand why pointing this out would do anything but further justify its BR being lowered so it has a chance at engaging similar BR targets.

[CTCrusader 214]

 

2 minutes ago, Vamilad said:

 

Yes the majority of SPAA in the game is not capable of engaging air targets at their BR range.

 

I do not understand why pointing this out would do anything but further justify its BR being lowered so it has a chance at engaging similar BR targets.

 

13 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

IR based ground systems need a rework in general but if moved to 8.7 it would sh*t all over korean era jets with its manpads and won't be any better against helis due to the low heat they give off (for some reason). 

Manpads would crush all the jets it would face with ease if moved to 8.7 or 8.3 and wouldn't solve the problem it has against helis. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

24 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

 

 

Manpads would crush all the jets it would face with ease if moved to 8.7 or 8.3 and wouldn't solve the problem it has against helis. 

 

Yeah if they were modeled as they are in real life.

 

In game a slight turn will dodge the missile, planes at 8.7 are already fighting 10G missiles.  There is no change in their gameplay.

 

"wouldn't solve the problem it has against helis."

It would cut the engagement range of helicopters to within the IRST tracking of the PGZ04A's guns, the same distance all other radar SPAAs use at a similar tier.  Again no change in their  gameplay.

 

The vehicle is a 8.7 SPAA uptiered to 9.3 BR.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Vamilad

[CTCrusader 214]

17 hours ago, Vamilad said:

planes at 8.7 are already fighting 10G missiles.

You can count on two hands the amount of jets under 9.0 that have IR missiles and those missiles are worse than the ones the PGZ04A has. The missiles on the PGZ04A are all aspect, 12G, has ECCM, and are faster than Aim-9B and R3S. Having it fight br 8.7 jets would ruin cas in that br range.

 

 

17 hours ago, Vamilad said:

It would cut the engagement range of helicopters to within the IRST tracking of the PGZ04A's guns, the same distance all other radar SPAAs use at a similar tier.

You're not gonna shoot down a heli at 3.5km with the 25mm guns on the PGZ04A. It is incredibly unlikely. Plus china already has the PGZ09 which has guns with more range than the PGZ04A making it more suited to shooting down helis. 

 

17 hours ago, Vamilad said:

The vehicle is a 8.7 SPAA uptiered to 9.3 BR.

Compared to contemporary SPAA its perfectly fine were it is. Everyone complains about helis and drones outranging IR SPAA and gaijin is working on the drone part. In fact gaijin has stated that drones in the future will be moved up in br. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

6 hours ago, CTCrusader said:

You can count on two hands the amount of jets under 9.0 that have IR missiles and those missiles are worse than the ones the PGZ04A has. The missiles on the PGZ04A are all aspect, 12G, has ECCM, and are faster than Aim-9B and R3S. Having it fight br 8.7 jets would ruin cas in that br range.

 

 

You're not gonna shoot down a heli at 3.5km with the 25mm guns on the PGZ04A. It is incredibly unlikely. Plus china already has the PGZ09 which has guns with more range than the PGZ04A making it more suited to shooting down helis. 

 

Compared to contemporary SPAA its perfectly fine were it is. Everyone complains about helis and drones outranging IR SPAA and gaijin is working on the drone part. In fact gaijin has stated that drones in the future will be moved up in br. 

 

There's a difference in performance from air to air versus ground to air.

 

All aspect is the first no brainer difference.

 

The second is the extra speed, Gaijin models drag, you're shooting up not down or equal.

 

"ruin cas in that br range"

 

The Strela is 9.0 and doesn't seem to be ruining anything.  Its missiles offer double G load and a 4 meter trigger radius.

 

8.7 is a BR black hole for 9.0 and 8.3, you will not see a 7.7 jet get uptiered to it.

 

You'll be fighting the same things you're fighting now just no premium SU25 or A10s with 300 flares.

[CTCrusader 214]

10 hours ago, Vamilad said:

"ruin cas in that br range"

The Strela is 9.0.  It s missiles offer double G load and a 4 meter trigger radius.

Yeah because its 9.0 not 8.7. You conveniently forget it has on average less than double the lock range of the PGZ04A, no search radar, and no thermals (or ANY NVD for that matter) meaning finding and engaging targets is extremally difficult when compared to the PGZ04A. The PGZ04A could probably go to 9.0 (but I would argue all IR SAMs should be 9.0 not just the Strela) but not 8.7. 

(Also the missiles have 20gs not 24gs. Still good but its not double the Gs and its downsides severely limit it).

 

10 hours ago, Vamilad said:

You'll be fighting the same things you're fighting now just no premium SU25 or A10s with 300 flares.

You'll still be fighting hunters with flares, A4-E with flares (and stand off munitions), and in an uptier harriers with flares if put at 8.7 so the annoyance of fighting aircraft with flares will not go away. It would still be stupid potent at 8.7 but there are still going to be annoying aircraft. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

the missiles are dead-effective against helis, even sniping cobras, ngl.

if you want to use them against planes theyre most effective when their back is facing you

[CTCrusader 214]

10 hours ago, Vamilad said:

There's a difference in performance from air to air versus ground to air.

And like I stated before you can count on two hands the amount of aircraft under 9.0 with IR AAMs and all of them have some of the worst flight performance at their br. So at the very most it should go down the PGZ04A could be 9.0, max. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

Just now, CTCrusader said:

And like I stated before you can count on two hands the amount of aircraft under 9.0 with IR AAMs and all of them have some of the worst flight performance at their br. 

 

You're very hardstuck on "all aspect" as if you're going to be fighting this thing mid air rather than engaging a mainly stationary ground target.

2 minutes ago, NAYEONnaise said:

the missiles are dead-effective against helis, even sniping cobras, ngl.

if you want to use them against planes theyre most effective when their back is facing you

 

The missiles can be quite good against helicopters yes, except you will never be able to lock them unless they do not understand their ATGM range.

[CTCrusader 214]

3 minutes ago, Vamilad said:

 

You're very hardstuck on "all aspect" as if you're going to be fighting this thing mid air rather than engaging a mainly stationary ground target.

You don't seem to get it do you? IR AAMs aren't a common thing below 9.0. They are reserved for some of the worst aircraft performance wise so saying because you CAN find IR AAMs below 9.0 doesn't automatically mean a vehicle with thermals, guns, search radar, 4 MANPADS (which you can count on ONE hand how many jets below 8.7 have more than 2 IR AAMs), and aircraft tracking with automatic lead should be 8.7.

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

8 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

Yeah because its 9.0 not 8.7. You conveniently forget it has on average less than double the lock range of the PGZ04A, no search radar, and no thermals (or ANY NVD for that matter) meaning finding and engaging targets is extremally difficult when compared to the PGZ04A. The PGZ04A could probably go to 9.0 (but I would argue all IR SAMs should be 9.0 not just the Strela) but not 8.7. 

(Also the missiles have 20gs not 24gs. Still good but its not double the Gs and its downsides severely limit it).

 

You'll still be fighting hunters with flares, A4-E with flares (and stand off munitions), and in an uptier harriers with flares if put at 8.7 so the annoyance of fighting aircraft with flares will not go away. It would still be stupid potent at 8.7 but there are still going to be annoying aircraft. 

 

The PGZ04a's radar is equally atrocious.  The thermals are the only legitimate advantage and they do not make the missiles functional.

 

9.0 is higher than 8.7, that's because the Strela's missiles are better than the PGZ04A's

 

"there will still be flares at 8.7" yeah, that's my point

 

Arguing that 8.7 is "too low" a BR range for a SAM is idiotic when planes at that tier already face IR missiles and begin gaining access to flares.

Just now, CTCrusader said:

You don't seem to get it do you? IR AAMs aren't a common thing below 9.0. They are reserved for some of the worst aircraft so saying because you CAN find IR AAMs below 9.0 doesn't automatically mean a vehicle with thermals, guns, search radar, 4 MANPADS (which you can count on ONE hand how many jets below 8.7 have more than 2 IR AAMs), and aircraft tracking with automatic lead should be 8.7.

 

The key word you are missing is "aircraft"

[CTCrusader 214]

 

17 minutes ago, Vamilad said:

The PGZ04a's radar is equally atrocious.  The thermals are the only legitimate advantage and they do not make the missiles functional.

Having a radar is leagues better than not having one. It aids massively in target acquisition and its not that bad for a radar at all.  

 

17 minutes ago, Vamilad said:

9.0 is higher than 8.7, that's because the Strela's missiles are better than the PGZ04A's

Mate did you not read what I stated before on the Strela? Here read again:

27 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

You conveniently forget it has on average less than double the lock range of the PGZ04A, no search radar, and no thermals (or ANY NVD for that matter) meaning finding and engaging targets is extremally difficult when compared to the PGZ04A.

The Strela's missiles/vehicle have massive deficiencies in almost all other areas of performance when compared to the PGZ04A. The missiles are still good but they aren't a straight upgrade they have massive flaws.  

 

17 minutes ago, Vamilad said:

Arguing that 8.7 is "too low" a BR range for a SAM is idiotic when planes at that tier already face IR missiles and begin gaining access to flares.

You idiot. You do not get it. Is the PGZ04A a plane with bad flight performance? No. Then it should not go to 8.7. Using one thing to argue for another is stupid because 

A) They are different vehicles, in different situations, in different tress even goddamnit so they shouldn't be compared in the first place. Those IR AAM equipped planes have nothing else going of them at their br and almost all only have two of them. The PGZ04A has tons going for it which I listed but you conveniently didn't read or don't want to bring up. 

B) The planes with access to flares under 9.0 you can count on one hand. The majority don't have any. The PGZ04A will be a menace to those players without flares. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Vamilad 238]

38 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

 

Having a radar is leagues better than not having one. It aids massively in target acquisition and its not that bad for a radar at all.  

 

Mate did you not read what I stated before on the Strela? Here read again:

The Strela's missiles/vehicle have massive deficiencies in almost all other areas of performance when compared to the PGZ04A. The missiles are still good but they aren't a straight upgrade they have massive flaws.  

 

You idiot. You do not get it. Is the PGZ04A a plane with bad flight performance? No. Then it should not go to 8.7. Using one thing to argue for another is stupid because 

A) They are different vehicles, in different situations, in different tress even goddamnit so they shouldn't be compared in the first place. Those IR AAM equipped planes have nothing else going of them at their br and almost all only have two of them. The PGZ04A has tons going for it which I listed but you conveniently didn't read or don't want to bring up. 

B) The planes with access to flares under 9.0 you can count on one hand. The majority don't have any. The PGZ04A will be a menace to those players without flares. 

 

The PGZ04A does have many features.  This is why it should be 8.7, not 8.3 like most other radar tracking SPAAs.

 

The Strela's lock range is the effective lock range of all IR SPAAs, being able to fire the missile at 6 KM is irrelevant as the aircraft are able to easily dodge the missile by simply moving left or right, not even in a maneuver. 

 

The PGZ04a's missile is extremely easy to dodge, most SAMs ignore flares anyway.  Saying they need flares to dodge the missile is ignorance.

 

The Strela's missile which is 20G overload functions at 9.0 just fine, I think pilots can handle a missile with half the Gs.

 

I don't make comparisons to one thing, I told you the missile's flight performance but you are arguing that the existence of IR missiles at all at 8.7 would be the end of the world when this is factually untrue.

 

"it has Radar" so do a lot of 8.3 SPAAs, again not something that sets it apart from the BR range. 

[CTCrusader 214]

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

The PGZ04A does have many features.  This is why it should be 8.7, not 8.3 like most other radar tracking SPAAs.

It has thermals, manpads, guns, and a laser rangefinder. When compared to other 9.3 sams it has a lot going over its contemporaries. Its fine were it is. Compared to other gun/manpad combo sams its actually lower than them as well (which is deserved it only has 25mm guns which are quite short range). 

 

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

The Strela's lock range is the effective lock range of all IR SPAAs, being able to fire the missile at 6 KM is irrelevant as the aircraft are able to easily dodge the missile by simply moving left or right, not even in a maneuver. 

The strela has a hypothetical lock range of 3km in frontal aspects. In practice these means that you will not lock on to targets coming towards you until around the 2km mark. Its a lot less than what other manpads do. 

 

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

The PGZ04a's missile is extremely easy to dodge, most SAMs ignore flares anyway.  Saying they need flares to dodge the missile is ignorance.

Saying they are going to be easy to dodge is ignorance. If you think you should be able to lock on to a plane going horizontal to you and hit it with a manpad you are mistaken. If you lock on to a plane coming in towards the battlefield you have an extremally high likelihood of hitting them with a manpad. You wouldn't hit a plane at 4km going 600km horizontal to you with any manpad in game. 

 

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

The Strela's missile which is 20G overload functions at 9.0 just fine, I think pilots can handle a missile with half the Gs.

The 20g overload is fine because of the lack of range. If that bad boy gets a lock it will hit and will kill but pilots can easily stay out of range balancing its great maneuverability. 

 

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

but you are arguing that the existence of IR missiles at all at 8.7 would be the end of the world when this is factually untrue.

I am saying that it shouldn't go to 8.7 because its fine were it is and would hurt 8.7 cas aircraft as most cas at that br is very close range. Compared to contemporary 9.3 spaa its pretty darn good and when compared to 8.3/8.7 spaa its just superior in almost every aspect to them. 

 

4 hours ago, Vamilad said:

"it has Radar" so do a lot of 8.3 SPAAs, again not something that sets it apart from the BR range. 

That was more in comparison to aircraft at 8.7 and 8.3, specifically the ones with IR missiles. Finding targets for airplanes with those IR missiles in ground rb would be difficult having to rely on their eyes (unless you were flying the Sea Vixen or Javelin FAW). The PGZ04A however does not need to do such thing and even if it did it has thermals to boot. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Kallu609 8]

1 hour ago, CTCrusader said:

I am saying that it shouldn't go to 8.7 because its fine were it is and would hurt 8.7 cas aircraft as most cas at that br is very close range. Compared to contemporary 9.3 spaa its pretty darn good and when compared to 8.3/8.7 spaa its just superior in almost every aspect to them.

All early SAM launchers should be at 8.7, that's when planes and many helicopters too get their missiles. It is simply fair, especially when you choose to play a vehicle specifically designed to engage aircraft while the plane has effective weapons against all enemies that it may face. And no the PGZ04 is not fine where it is, it's practically a sidegrade to PGZ09 while being 1BR higher. If it was russian it would likely be at 8.7 since it's functionally just an upgraded ZSU23 with funky missiles that only exist to spook the enemy

[CTCrusader 214]

36 minutes ago, Kallu609 said:

And no the PGZ04 is not fine where it is, it's practically a sidegrade to PGZ09 while being 1BR higher. If it was russian it would likely be at 8.7 since it's functionally just an upgraded ZSU23 with funky missiles that only exist to spook the enemy

So exactly like the Geopard 1A2 then? Or sidam 25 mistral?

Edited May 30, 2023 by CTCrusader