An Honest Question to the DEVs- How long should it take to reach Top Tier?

[SickSix 305]

What do the developers think a reasonable time investment is to reach Top tier in one tech tree for Free-to-Play and for a Premium account? 

(Give us a number!!!)

 

I really think if the DEVs gave us a numerical value of hours it should take to reach say, 11.7 tanks in the US tech tree for a F2P and Premium account we could then have a better starting point to discuss economy changes. Using vague terms that mean wildly different things to different people may be the cause of a lot of frustration right now. 

 

For example, a good single player game that was story driven was considered a good investment if the player got around 40 hours of play time for their first playthrough. Gaijin seems to value one tech tree as worth as much as one AAA game (because a top tier premium sells for the cost of one AAA game of another genre) so should someone who buys a top premium be able to reach the end of the tech tree within 40-ish hours of battle time? What is the actual expectation? 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by SickSix
To add screen shot of vague language from the creative director himself.

[Kilvanya 3]

Given the lack luster replies and utter disconnect my guess would be north of 400 hours per in-tree tech line, so for the majors 5 lines you are looking at 1500-2000 hours in their hope to make you spend on GE to skip parts of it.

[Zucc_Boi 657]

10 hours ago, SickSix said:

What do the developers think a reasonable time investment is to reach Top tier in one tech tree for Free-to-Play and for a Premium account? 

 

I really think if the DEVs gave us a numerical value of hours it should take to reach say, 11.7 tanks in the US tech tree for a F2P and Premium account we could then have a better starting point to discuss economy changes. Using vague terms that mean wildly different things to different people may be the cause of a lot of frustration right now. 

 

For example, a good single player game that was story driven was considered a good investment if the player got around 40 hours of play time for their first playthrough. Gaijin seems to value one tech tree as worth as much as one AAA game (because a top tier premium sells for the cost of one AAA game of another genre) so should someone who buys a top premium be able to reach the end of the tech tree within 40-ish hours of battle time? What is the actual expectation? 

 

The devs aren't playing the game. Who told you that they do? I've seen vehicles with bugs so serious, there's no way they ever passed through a developer in a live game environment.

Gaijin would profit so much, so much, if they just hire 1 tester who isn't a yes-man, tell him to play every vehicle in WT a few times, and implement his feedback. But with all the money they get from us, they can't even hire 1 guy? 

[richthofen122 1,455]

4 minutes ago, Zucc_Boi said:

But with all the money they get from us, they can't even hire 1 guy? 

 

Of course they can't, all those mansions, sports cars and russian models are expensive.

[Catarina de Laguna 34]

This will depend on how you play the game, I don't believe will be less than 150 hours.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Catarina de Laguna

[Target1331 3,055]

On 19/05/2023 at 23:28, Kilvanya said:

Given the lack luster replies and utter disconnect my guess would be north of 400 hours per in-tree tech line, so for the majors 5 lines you are looking at 1500-2000 hours in their hope to make you spend on GE to skip parts of it.

My Excel list (not in link below, but personal list is up to date including 2.25 vehicles) is ok-ish (might be outdated on several older vehicles regarding their SL and RP, but ballpark is close enough) on the RP and SL requirements to unlock vehicles and has an estimation calculation integrated.
Total amount of RP & SL required to unlock all standard vehicles (numbers rounded):

Aircraft: 77.8 million RP + 232.9 million SL

Tanks: 83.3 mil RP + 228.0 mil SL

Ships: 28.5 mil RP + 78.4 mil SL

Helis: 16.0 mil RP + 46.3 mil SL

Total: 205.5 mil RP + 585.5 mil SL

If a player plays 5 battles a day and averages 7k RP + 50k SL per battle, that equals about 16 years to unlock every vehicle by RP and 6 years in SL.

 

Note, though, SL does not account for the additional SL needed to spend on modules and crewing. Modules I do not have the data, but crewing is another 169.4 mil SL and if experting is considered double the purchase price (the 585.5 mil SL), as expert crew is just the purchase price of a vehicle again. With that added, we would end up another 6 year for experting and about 2 years for crewing, getting us close to 16 years for the SL as well.

 

Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
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My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Target1331
Corrected a weird wording, clarified that my data DOES include 2.25 vehicles.

[SickSix 305]

4 hours ago, Target1331 said:

My Excel list is ok-ish (might be outdated on several vehicles regarding their SL and RP, but ballpark is close enough) on the RP and SL requirements to unlock vehicles and has an estimation calculation integrated.
Total amount of RP & SL required to unlock all standard vehicles (numbers rounded):

Aircraft: 77.8 million RP + 232.9 million SL

Tanks: 83.3 mil RP + 228.0 mil SL

Ships: 28.5 mil RP + 78.4 mil SL

Helis: 16.0 mil RP + 46.3 mil SL

Total: 205.5 mil RP + 585.5 mil SL

If a player plays 5 battles a day and averages 7k RP + 50k SL per battle, that equals about 16 years to unlock every vehicle by RP and 6 years in SL.

 

Note, though, SL does not account for the additional SL needed to spend on modules and crewing. Modules I do not have the data, but crewing is another 169.4 mil SL and if experting is considered that doubles the purchase price (the 585.5 mil SL), as expert crew is just the purchase price of a vehicle again. With that added, we would end up another 6 year for experting and about 2 years for crewing, getting us close to 16 years for the SL as well.

 

Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
Bring back forum profile pictures and signatures!
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/578365-return-custom-avatar/

My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

Fantastic work, Phil.

 

But we need the Devs to tell us what they calculate a reasonable time to be to accomplish this. Until they give us an actual number how are we supposed to come together and negotiate?

[Tarmok 38]

Imagine ANY other type of game telling their players reaching the "end game" (in this case in even one vehicle) will take them even more than 100 hours xD

The numbers needed are just absurd

[IAMTRIGGERED 1,087]

On 20/05/2023 at 21:26, Target1331 said:

My Excel list is ok-ish (might be outdated on several vehicles regarding their SL and RP, but ballpark is close enough) on the RP and SL requirements to unlock vehicles and has an estimation calculation integrated.
Total amount of RP & SL required to unlock all standard vehicles (numbers rounded):

Aircraft: 77.8 million RP + 232.9 million SL

Tanks: 83.3 mil RP + 228.0 mil SL

Ships: 28.5 mil RP + 78.4 mil SL

Helis: 16.0 mil RP + 46.3 mil SL

Total: 205.5 mil RP + 585.5 mil SL

If a player plays 5 battles a day and averages 7k RP + 50k SL per battle, that equals about 16 years to unlock every vehicle by RP and 6 years in SL.

 

Note, though, SL does not account for the additional SL needed to spend on modules and crewing. Modules I do not have the data, but crewing is another 169.4 mil SL and if experting is considered that doubles the purchase price (the 585.5 mil SL), as expert crew is just the purchase price of a vehicle again. With that added, we would end up another 6 year for experting and about 2 years for crewing, getting us close to 16 years for the SL as well.

 

Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
Bring back forum profile pictures and signatures!
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/578365-return-custom-avatar/

My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

So basically just drop a nuke every game, 5 times a day, every day, for 16 years straight and you'll have completed War Thunder.

 

OR have your child complete their entire school education and have them get a M.Sc., also about 16 years.

 

Yes, very reasonable game indeed.

[TheMightySardine 1,427]

9 minutes ago, IAMTRIGGERED said:

So basically just drop a nuke every game, 5 times a day, every day, for 16 years straight and you'll have completed War Thunder.

 

OR have your child complete their entire school education and have them get a M.Sc., also about 16 years.

 

Yes, very reasonable game indeed.

That also doesnt count new 10-30 vehicles added every patch into tech trees.

[Target1331 3,055]

2 minutes ago, TheMightySardine said:

That also doesnt count new 10-30 vehicles added every patch into tech trees.

Correct, while those numbers are recent, as in 2.25 vehicle count, list of course does not include the upcoming 2.27 vehicles.
Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
Bring back forum profile pictures and signatures!
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/578365-return-custom-avatar/

My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Target1331

[TheMightySardine 1,427]

1 minute ago, Target1331 said:

Correct, while those numbers are recent, as in 2.25 vehicle count, list of course does not include the upcoming 2.27 vehicles.
Best regards,

Phil

---------------- Manual signature until those and profile pics are returned ----------------
Bring back forum profile pictures and signatures!
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/578365-return-custom-avatar/

My complete tech trees (incl. all special vehicles) spreadsheet is updated to match 2.23 (only accurate atm for list & status of vehicles): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bjEgsDhTjJhXt9N4fzIzvWa7cvy-KSDQc1HNNOZuaI/edit Contains probably all vehicles WT has published.

So the goal will be going even further unless you manage to unlock vehicles faster than they are added.

[dоt 3,457]

On 20/05/2023 at 05:19, SickSix said:

For example, a good single player game that was story driven was considered a good investment if the player got around 40 hours of play time for their first playthrough. Gaijin seems to value one tech tree as worth as much as one AAA game (because a top tier premium sells for the cost of one AAA game of another genre) so should someone who buys a top premium be able to reach the end of the tech tree within 40-ish hours of battle time? What is the actual expectation? 

 

AAA title these days is anywhere from 50-70 USD, that would be roughly about a year of premium time outside of sales. So by your logic they would expect you to reach top tier in a single tree in a year, not 40 hours. 40 hours would be way too short to reach top tier with premium, and not entice long term investment from players and subsequently not provide enough revenue to Gaijin to keep the game going in a "F2P" model. Having a short grind to top tier isn't a viable business model, yes the grind is too long currently, but players shouldn't be delusional that you can push for a 1 week grind to top tier in any of the tech trees, that's just not going to happen.

 

The only way for a short grind to top tier would work in a F2P model is paywalling the higher tiers. You can't just demand Gaijin to destroy their revenue and subsequently have to lay off staff, because people want to unlock top tier in a few weeks or less.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Reddоt

[Melthornal 74]

I have absolutely no issue with silver lions, it actually boggles my mind that anyone does but whatever. With RP, it takes me about 2-4 weeks to unlock each high tier vehicle. So if there are, say, 10 tier 6 vehicles, that's about 5-10 months worth of playing. For example. If there are 5 tier 7 vehicles, that's another 5 months or so. So, that is kinda where I am right now. Playing tier 6 vehicles, trying to get to tier 7. It will take me probably 2 more years to get through tier 7, and by then there will probably be tier 8 or something.

[FreedomAB 2]

I've been playing War Thunder for over 1,000 hours now and so far I'm not going to finish a full technical line, which is very unreasonable when I already have a premium account and premium coin vehicles, and in most cases I can only get 3-5K XP per game? It's so cool

[SickSix 305]

3 hours ago, Reddоt said:

 

AAA title these days is anywhere from 50-70 USD, that would be roughly about a year of premium time outside of sales. So by your logic they would expect you to reach top tier in a single tree in a year, not 40 hours. 40 hours would be way too short to reach top tier with premium, and not entice long term investment from players and subsequently not provide enough revenue to Gaijin to keep the game going in a "F2P" model. Having a short grind to top tier isn't a viable business model, yes the grind is too long currently, but players shouldn't be delusional that you can push for a 1 week grind to top tier in any of the tech trees, that's just not going to happen.

 

The only way for a short grind to top tier would work in a F2P model is paywalling the higher tiers. You can't just demand Gaijin to destroy their revenue and subsequently have to lay off staff, because people want to unlock top tier in a few weeks or less.

 

 

The point of the post is for them to GIVE US A NUMBER OF HOURS. THEY HAVE NEVER DONE THIS! So how are we supposed to know what a "balanced amount of time" even means? 

 

We can't even really negotiate with them if we don't even know what they think is a 'reasonable' amount of time to reach top tier.

[dоt 3,457]

1 hour ago, SickSix said:

 

The point of the post is for them to GIVE US A NUMBER OF HOURS. THEY HAVE NEVER DONE THIS! So how are we supposed to know what a "balanced amount of time" even means? 

 

We can't even really negotiate with them if we don't even know what they think is a 'reasonable' amount of time to reach top tier.

And this amount of time is based on what? Let’s say they say “6 months”, then comes based on what? Different player skill, different time investment, different playstyle, what exactly are you going to interpret from some random time value, how does that help at all if you have no data in your hand to validate or do anything with it.

 

They will not make detailed player data public as that’ll allow competitors to evaluate their business model.

 

How about you come up with some suggestions which help YOU as a player and bring those forward.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Reddоt

[_YellowJacket_ 230]

17 hours ago, Tarmok said:

Imagine ANY other type of game telling their players reaching the "end game" (in this case in even one vehicle) will take them even more than 100 hours xD

The numbers needed are just absurd

100+ or even 500+ hours to reach the "endgame" is pretty standard in games like MMOs.

The issue with WT just is that a lot of people dont play the game for the "gameplay" itself (as you would in an MMO), but for the specific goal of reaching the modern vehicles (that are the main point of the game's advertisement).

[dоt 3,457]

17 minutes ago, _YellowJacket_ said:

The issue with WT just is that a lot of people dont play the game for the "gameplay" itself (as you would in an MMO), but for the specific goal of reaching the modern vehicles (that are the main point of the game's advertisement).

 

That's the same in any "grinding game", there's always a certain end game setup to chase for. The problem is the road to get there should be only a time investment and not an utter frustration. You can make a game grindy, yet still fun. The economy for me personally isn't an issue, but I can imagine it must be for a lot of people who can't consistently do well and/or who just started WT. In other games, even if you do poorly, it will just take much longer but you can still play. In WT if you do poorly, you'll have no SL to repair your vehicles and you simply can't play at all or you have to drop to a lower tier that you can afford.

 

Premium should only make the progression faster, it should not be a requirement to actually play the game if you just want to casually mess around with a plane, tank, or ship. Making premium a requirement to actually play for some people defeats the whole "Free 2 Play" principle.

 

Yes people can say "git gud brah" and that sort of things, but if Gaijin alienates the part of the community who is currently not able to play consistently and some of them leave, then the people who are currently just keeping afloat will be the next "lowest performers" and they will start losing SL. They need a certain amount of poor players in the game for the economy to work as well, and those people still need to have a sense of enjoyment otherwise they leave.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Reddоt

[Jarms 1,558]

I want to know the amount of hours Gaijin expect to unlock a top tier on average. For example according to steam I’ve played 1200 hours and my highest vehicle is 8.0 and highest playable BR is 7.7

[Vyprex 729]

On 20/05/2023 at 06:19, SickSix said:

What do the developers think a reasonable time investment is to reach Top tier in one tech tree for Free-to-Play and for a Premium account? 

(Give us a number!!!)

 

I really think if the DEVs gave us a numerical value of hours it should take to reach say, 11.7 tanks in the US tech tree for a F2P and Premium account we could then have a better starting point to discuss economy changes. Using vague terms that mean wildly different things to different people may be the cause of a lot of frustration right now. 

 

For example, a good single player game that was story driven was considered a good investment if the player got around 40 hours of play time for their first playthrough. Gaijin seems to value one tech tree as worth as much as one AAA game (because a top tier premium sells for the cost of one AAA game of another genre) so should someone who buys a top premium be able to reach the end of the tech tree within 40-ish hours of battle time? What is the actual expectation? 

 

Probably without premium takes one century to reaching top tier.

[Tarmok 38]

2 hours ago, _YellowJacket_ said:

100+ or even 500+ hours to reach the "endgame" is pretty standard in games like MMOs.

The issue with WT just is that a lot of people dont play the game for the "gameplay" itself (as you would in an MMO), but for the specific goal of reaching the modern vehicles (that are the main point of the game's advertisement).

 

True, but to be fair how far down any given focus tree would even 500hours get a new player, with no experiance and no money invested? Depending on the tree maybe BR5-6?
That is not even where the real grind starts let alone the massive SL sinks.

 

+ Let's be honest here no matter what tree you grind it is not like going down it gives you any real change in game play. You are for the most part on the same maps, with the same goals, in the same game modes. The only thing changing is the toy you are playing with in the same arena.