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Honest Economy Feedback, Suggestions


quoted from below "For example, leave feedback in our forum, and suggestions specifically about the economy we are inviting in the feedback form. " - so i am posting this on here as well as reddit as per gaijins request. 

A response to gaijin.
Player progression is essential. You can't give a player everything at once, because it will overwhelm and make the game very difficult for them and they will just leave it either immediately or almost immediately.
So Why did you try to unfolder vehicles? that's pretty much the same as "giving the player everything at once, overwhelming them".
This has been tested by us many times in different ways. When applied to our game, later vehicles are almost always more difficult to learn and play tactically, in the controls and with its capabilities. Progression provides opportunities for gradual learning and engaging the players. Without it, the game will lose players right from the start.
And giving people the chance to skip straight to top tier with Rank 7 premiums is okay though? who needs to learn through the lower ranks, when you can buy your way to the top. Don't get me wrong, i have top tier prems too but your argument holds no water here.
In addition, progression serves as one of the basics of how a game makes money (basically players pay for acceleration of progression).The fundamental difference between paid games and fair play free-2-play games is that you don't have to pay to play free games, and most players don't actually pay.Most War Thunder players - about 80% - have never paid a dime into a game, whilst playing for months or years. Many of those players who have paid for something in the game don't pay every month (and sometimes not every year) either. Nevertheless, all of the maintenance to the game, all of its development, servers, and support, is provided by those players who pay.
I am one of the players who did put in large amounts of money into the game, hundreds, if not thousands, which makes the way the player base has been treated even more painful.
In any game players play only when they have fun. But in a f2p game, players only pay if the game really entertains them. The player is already playing, already having fun, and pays if they want to support the game, or try something new, which is, at the same time, not necessary to enjoy the game (otherwise they would just quit playing and not pay at all).Hence the unobvious conclusion: the less you have to pay to play the game, the more differently priced paid options it should have, so that those who can afford it can spend more, and those who can't or don't want to can play for free and have fun.
So the people who have actually paid into the game are being punished and we have to pay EVEN more? After covid, furloughs, economic downturns, food, housing and energy crisis, when people have less money to spend, you want to make it harder to play something which might give people a little more joy in their lives, and make people, who might be financially struggling, but have been loyal to the game and paid in and helped the success of gaijin, Pay even more when they may not be able to? Nice way to reward loyalty.
There are many progression and economy options in F2P games. Not all of them are suitable for our game, because War Thunder is about real combat vehicles, which are not equal, differing in power and capabilities.To quickly and roughly summarize, the general principles of economy and progression in our game:vehicles should be unlocked gradually, from simpler and older to more complex and later
the total time to get the first "top" vehicle should be a balanced (not too long not too short) number of game hours
Agreed, but gradually shouldn't mean that it takes YEARS - even with a premium account, the grind is too long. even content creators have pointed this out, and yet, you make it worse with economy nerfs and by adding newer, even more expensive vehicles in. True to your deity, you want us to move at a snails pace.
the player should at the beginning of the game route (while mastering the game) get new in-game equipment often enoughThe game has to earn money, otherwise it will be closed. And it must make money without a pay wall, so you can play indefinitely without paying anything (so there is no deception that the game is "free" when in fact it is not). Income should provide everyone the opportunity to play a multiplayer game with multiple modes and features
agreed, but make no deception that you can treat the player base the way you want and we will still hand you are wallets.
Progression and economy should, as far as possible, provide a variety of vehicles encountered in battle, otherwise it's just boring. I.e. there should not be too many "farming" vehicles, and especially if they are statistically stronger in battles (otherwise only the same popular vehicles will appear in battle).
Ironic how you say that, yet high tier RB was dominated by things like the SU25 which was about the same capability as the tech tree version - THEN YOU RELEASED ANOTHER SU25 AT AN EVEN HIGHER BR. Premium Phantoms offer better play than some tech tree phantoms, the T72 TURMS and PZbtl are extremely powerful, whilst the S238 and the KA50 ARE OP AND BROKEN. They are better than their BR piers, and why would anyone NOT use them for farming? again, more statements from you, that do not correspond with your business decisions.
In a game with so many vehicles and modes it's impossible to manually adjust the in-game economy (it's important that it obeys specific rules, and manual changes to them would skew a vehicle’s effectiveness, making some vehicles "bad" and others much better than average, and thus affecting their occurrence in battles).On the basis of these theses the economy is “adjusted” (algorithmically based on statistics).
What statistics? WR? because we have seen that is utterly ineffective. a few good players in niche vehicles gets an artificially high WR and earns that vehicle a nerf (as proven by the Canadian F86 Sabre incident) and Rank 6 russian prems get played by a lot of newbies, giving it an artificially low WR earning them little or no nerfs, and in some cases, buffs. When actually the same vehicles in good hands utterly stomp the enemy team. if its not based on WR, the players would love to see the methodology.
We are no doubt open to other suggestions (and we have many of our own), but we doubt that a complete transformation of the progression into something completely new will be accepted by many players, no matter how much we would like to do it ourselves. We'll still try to come up with something new in the progression, and we'll definitely consider all of your suggestions.
Then act like you are open to our suggestions. The community is getting fed up with responses from devs which are sarcastic, and news updates on your page that sound totally condescending and talk down to the players, like its our fault. Point in case, your news post about the economy reversal - " We regret that our actions to balance the economy are often poorly explained and not transparent to you. In the future, we will try our best to talk about the changes we plan to do earlier, in more detail and more clearly, as well as listen to the feedback that you offer more carefully. " No, you explained it perfectly fine, it was just such a poor decision from your end. Don't turn it around and imply that we the player base didn't understand. If you are going to issue an apology, make it an apology. We would have so much more respect and less hostility towards you if you owned up to your mistakes and just held your hands up and said "yeah, we messed up, it wasn't a great decision".
Separately, a few words about review bombing as a method of communication
Separately, a few words about review bombing as a method of communication. As many of our players know - we've repeatedly reverted both planned and already released large and small changes (including in the economy and progression). Due to threads on reddit (where much of the western English-speaking community communicates) and with threads on the forums and comments to articles on the site. We value our players and our game, not our updates and changes. If we know that the majority of the community doesn't want an update, we cancel or revert it immediately. Even if some part supports and some part opposes - we prefer conservatively the "do no harm" principle - keeping the current status quo.
So when we had the community vote as to raise rewards for wins, or reduce the rewards for wins and increase rewards for losses, when you failed to mention that we would be getting a global economy nerf anyway, and players did not agree with that, did you keep the status quo then? did you do the "do no harm" policy then? you do realise nobody wanted that part of the update, and you just hid the nerf behind a heated debate about higher win or loss rewards?
Of course, a review on Steam is also a platform for expression. However, the majority of new players just look at the score evaluation, and do not read the text of reviews and do not go into what they were left for. So review bombing does damage to the game in that new players simply won't try it, while it doesn't raise their awareness of the problems you've noticed. If your goal is not to hurt the game, please use other, less destructive ways. For example, leave feedback in our forum, and suggestions specifically about the economy we are inviting in the feedback form. Also, review bombing will not cause modifying or nullifying in-game prices - if the game is shut down, no one wins.
You know what also hurts the player base and turns away new players? toxic treatment from a company against it's players and economy nerfs that make it impossible for new players to get in the game. And when we do leave feedback on reddit and the forums, you rarely listen. The very fact that that you responded to the review bombs and have done something about it, is proof that actually it does work, you for once are taking us seriously and that numbers and stats and reviews are the only things that matter.
Radical, revolutionary changes in games that have been around for years are always very difficult to make, because they will almost certainly break gameplay for a significant part of the players. We try to proceed according to the principle "do no harm" and change the game carefully. However, if a topic receives a lot of support from the community - we do everything possible to support the players. We commit to follow the feedback even more carefully in the future and take it into account when defining our plans for the development of the game.
Lets hope so. but on a final note, there's more than one way to "skin a cat".If you want the player base to continue contributing money to your company, you can do one of two things. you can push out all the premiums in the world, and you can keep nerfing the economy, keep making things imbalanced so people need to splash GE to get to a less horrid tier etc, or you can actually start listening to the community, making the grind easier, let people start having fun again by listening to the people THAT ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME ON A REGULAR BASIS, since i don't think many of your devs spend anywhere near as much time in game as the avg player does. And guess what, the relation with Us, the customers, will get better, we will become less toxic, we will become less hostile, we will actually willingly spend more on a game that we are having fun with, rather than threatening strikes and review bombs and uninstalling the game. It's happened to wargaming, its happened to armored warfare, you are not special. A bit of customer service goes a long way, and that's how you keep your income to fund future development of the game. If warthunder collapses, another game from another dev will take it's place. So it's up to you, either start treating us better, and stay relevant longer, and continue to be a major player in the gaming industry, or disappear as you disillusion your players.
We are not denying you need to make money, we are not denying that there are sometimes difficult choices, we are not denying that choices won't please everyone, but too many times have you made punitive decisions that have made this game a shadow of it's former self.
Edited by ToshibaTheZombie

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First of all I want to correct you about players and economy system because it looks like you are the one who does not understand it

You made a post about how it works and what you are trying to do. The thing it does not corresponds with reality. I don't know the reason behind that is you don't have enough time to play the game in all BR ranks or just trying to gaslight.

First lets say it simple: The game does NOT stand for general principles of economy and progression you stated.

vehicles should be unlocked gradually, from simpler and older to more complex and later

It IS closed behind paywall and\or grindwall, it is genereally impossible to get rank6 vehicles and above without premium AND golden eagles unless you exploit game economics in one way another(bots, 1 tank, endless camping in 1 corner of the map every match)

 

the total time to get the first "top" vehicle should be a balanced (not too long not too short) number of game hours

It can take up to YEAR of grind to get to the top tier vehicle unless you spend unhealthy amounts of time on game

 

the player should at the beginning of the game route (while mastering the game) get new in-game equipment often enough

There is no problem about it unless you mean you need to waste your time for getting basic stuff that must be included in vehicle by default.

Jet in top tier without flares? How in the world you came to this conclusion?

Tank with HEATFS rounds by default against full era tank lineup? Thats just suffering for no reason

 

The game has to earn money, otherwise it will be closed. And it must make money without a pay wall, so you can play indefinitely without paying anything (so there is no deception that the game is "free" when in fact it is not). Income should provide everyone the opportunity to play a multiplayer game with multiple modes and features

There is no problem with first part. the problem is the pay wall that exists, you must pay or you will never get hight ranked vehicles(Unless you exploit the game AND spend unhealthy amounts of time)

 

Progression and economy should, as far as possible, provide a variety of vehicles encountered in battle, otherwise it's just boring. I.e. there should not be too many "farming" vehicles, and especially if they are statistically stronger in battles (otherwise only the same popular vehicles will appear in battle).

That statement does not corresponds with your action at all. You create fees based on vehicle efficiency, which leads vehicles to be abandoned and kills vehicle variety. This system never worked in any game, it does not work, it will never work. It does not work even in theory. Thats why vehicles need fees system based solely on thier rank\br(or something similar). (what happened to early british jets? Japanese Ki planes? f4d-1 skyray? they were abandoned)

You say variety, but all variety goes to 1 nation that is already full of vehicles while other nations lacks vehicles to make it at least sustainable(British light vehicles? top tier SPAA problem for minor nations? No one ask to add something, we ask you to work on it prior already full tech trees(3 vehicles to the most filled tech tree while minor nations get only 1(almost copypaste in case of JP) will lead to question "why would I play anything but soviet?")

Variety but only sustainable way to not loose everything is to play a single vehicle and leave after 1 death

 

In a game with so many vehicles and modes it's impossible to manually adjust the in-game economy (it's important that it obeys specific rules, and manual changes to them would skew a vehicle’s effectiveness, making some vehicles "bad" and others much better than average, and thus affecting their occurrence in battles).

manually adjust the in-game economy is exactly how you pissed off comunity. "it's important that it obeys specific rules" unless these rules prevent players playing the game

"...making some vehicles "bad" " thats exactly how you made them bad and unplayable.

 

"On the basis of these theses the economy is “adjusted” (algorithmically based on statistics)"

Things happening right know clearly indicates it does not work

 

few words about review bombing

It happens when you don't leave other ways of communication

People gave you feedback, your answer was "your feedback is wrong" and your solution was to ban any disagreement

Now you deal with feedback you can't hide behind banhammers and premoderated forum posts, enjoy

 

I stated the issues I sumed up from all posts I've seen on reddit(I've seen these hundreds of banned posts and read a lot of them), chat, from what I heard within the game, and people from union, if you are ready to actually talk with comunity we can continue working together on the ways to fix the situation and discuss exact solutions

Edited by asd072
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This is a pretty solid breakdown and I agree with it.

I also think, to add, there's a breakdown between the usage case of a regular research vehicle, and premium vehicles. I should be wanting to play as regular tech tree vehicles most of the time, and be able to, but I can't because I just lose SL, or barely break even. Sure, in the bottom half of the tech tree, where most players will spend the VAST majority of time playing mostly likely, they'll earn a profit in SL more often than not, but for the ranks above it's just nonsense.

Premium vehicles should always be earning more than regular research vehicles, obviously. But research vehicles should be playable without having to count every single loss you take as a blow to your net worth. The B-57A has like a 16k repair cost in RB? It has no guns on it and if you bomb one base, ONE base, and die, I don't even think you break even, I think you LOSE SL, in one of the most common scenarios of a jet bomber, particularly one WITHOUT ANY WEAPONS. And bizarrely, despite being the same BR, the B-57B, has a slightly cheaper repair cost, and it has guns, AND it earns more thanks to higher reward multipliers!

The Ki-200 repair cost is over 19,000 silver lions. So what, is it balanced around that plane being an 'amazing' vehicle? That would explain why I see so many people flying it! Oh, wait.

Nobody should be playing War Thunder and counting bullets, counting shells, counting the planes and vehicles they lose and getting frustrated because they just lost SL, in a game where you need millions of it to get anywhere, not just to unlock vehicles, broken vehicles that need of HOURS of research done to unlock their potential, and then pay more SL to buy the modules on the vehicles... not just that, you need to pay to crew them AND upgrade their crew levels and then pay for ammunition and repairs and it's just too much.

I am sure there are like a ~5% of players maybe sitting at the top, who have never put the game down since 2012 and have multiple full trees unlocked, but please look at the game as regular mortals look at it.

You guys mention that the review bombing thing is hurting you and your longterm goals to grow as a company by turning new players away. Gaijin, YOU are already doing that with how high the grind is cranked up, I have introduced at least a dozen people to this game off-hand or through referrals, and none of them have stuck with it, none of them, not because they are disinterested in the game, but because the grind is not something they can handle. Some of them even spent money on War Thunder and then just put it down forever.

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[And I understand you need to make profit]

 

Something in advance to credit myself: I’ve unlocked the entire tree for French vehicles and many more nations to different stages, this is also not my only account but I feel I should use this one for the first time, so that you guys know I am giving suggestions honestly and seriously.

 

I am Ground RB main, about a year ago started to do CAS in ground RB thanks to a friend who taught me, he played for 6000hrs. I spent a whole lot in this game already which you can track on your side, I suppose. I am also a community manager for some other smaller game which I will not disclose here, not expert, but I do understand you need to make profit. With that in mind, let’s get to it.

1. About balancing

 

I can choose to believe that you are not doing this intentionally, but even then, your balancing algorithm just does not work, it's broken in many ways. In science there is a really important concept called “correlation does not equal to causation”, why is it important for War Thunder?

 

Let’s see, a very simple example will be the AMX13, French one cost around 9500 to repair while in Israel it's only 3500-ish or something. This is obviously broken because we are getting drastically different repair cost for literally the same vehicle. How? Well, because based on your algorithm, Israel AMX 13 preforms way worse. Since it is the initial vehicle for the nation, players are way too immature and inexperienced in playing such vehicle that demands both high skill and specific understanding towards French auto-loading tank. So in short, Israeli AMX 13 does not deserve a lower repairing cost, nor that French player deserve higher, in other word, you algorithm does not take player's skill into account at the current stage.

 

Similar principle does apply to Russian mbt, particularly T72AV and T80BVM, they are having a mediocre stat not because they are actually mediocre, the stats you are seeing right now are the result from both the vehicle itself, and which you currently ignored, the players. This is particularly obvious for premium vehicle, it is no secret that premium high tier vehicle tends to have a worse-performing player behind its wheel (they are easier to acquire!), so if the balancing algorithm is merely based on the performance of the vehicle, the premium vehicle is simply gonna be OP as a result to make up for the worse player.

 

I can bring countless other example such as CV90 series vs 2S38, but anyway you get the point, the focus is to include player performance into account in your algorithm, player who does better for some non-mainstream vehicle does not deserve their beloved vehicle to be nerfed or a ridiculously high repairing cost, just because they are good (French and Swedish players will have some word about this in particular.)

 

My suggestion? For a really simple proposal you can have a multiplier when calculating the strength of the vehicle. The multiplier will be based on player’s skill, if the average player who play it are having a higher ranking base on your stats, then deduct some effective strength away from the vehicle because you know that part of the combat effectiveness is from the player, not the vehicle.

2. About what we are currently concerned the most, the repairing cost/economy.

 

Just keep that in mind I really do understand and I like your honesty in the last post about admitting fact that this game does need to make money based on progression system (And I presume heavily), but I still need to point out a few things that can make the game better (and also less painful for players).

 

Let me just start with a connection from the last topic, I’ve been a French player for the most part and any French player will know exactly what I am talking about. I have a relatively decent KD but nonetheless still having a really hard time trying to make some silver (with premium all the time) in some of the BR, 6.7-8.3 in particular. In case you haven’t realized, this part contains almost all of the French-original vehicle, the next BR with a decent number of vehicles will be straight up to 11.0. Well guess what, it really didn’t surprise me when I went to play other nations and my income suddenly just became so much better, as I said in previous part, this is unfair for us and it is a huge part of my frustration personally, the entire system of determining repair cost should thus be revised.

 

I’m going to now hop into the presumably more sensitive part, I do respect every dollar you make, but hey, maybe it’s time to be a bit more confident of your game. Listen and this is really important, perhaps the most important part of my entire argument: I really appreciate that War Thunder is a content-based game. Compare with most of the other MMO that are currently trending right now, the updating pace and the variety of choice in this game is just amazing, of course I do like you to keep that, to keep the basic progression mechanism in this game.

 

Where is the problem then? Have you ever done any research in the proportion of players who actually get to access your content? That means high tier vehicle, vehicle with special perks or just fun such like the Starship (for me it’s super fun hell yea) or higher tier, like the M3A3 Bradly, or, CV90 for example? I guess not a lot, eh?

 

Making higher tier vehicle a part of the purchase – of course! I agree, but to what extend? Some of them? 50 percent? 90 percent? Or what you are doing right now, all of them? You said it is important to give players more options to pay, but let’s be honest, can any player play to the top without grinding like hell?

 

Currently this game is at a status where even if player choose to pay, it is still hard for them to get what they want. They can’t access the fun vehicles in other nations because the cost of restarting in another tech tree is too severe (time-wise and money-wise); They can never reach to top tier for a single nation, not to mention there are 6 or 7 others awaits... This means that first, there are a lot of incredible content that are just sitting there rotting for most of the time, majority of the players don’t actually get to consume it. They don’t get to consume the vehicle that your department perhaps spent hundreds if not thousands of labour hours trying to make, what a waste that is? Second, your overly harsh progression system is reducing the fun of the game, and irritating players – to a really extreme extent, because player will never be able to get what they want, or at a ridiculously high cost (buy the entire tech tree?)

 

So, this is bad for us, and bad for you too. It hurt the players, and it mitigate your effort.

 

The fact is, even if you halve the progression requirement (that is already really extreme to be fair),  player base will still not get everything they want, and of course, they will still play, and pay. I had all French vehicle, and I noticed American vehicle could be incredibly fun, so I just kept going, right? What if you doubled the income or halved the cost? I would probably be on my way to Swedish tech tree or German one right now.

 

You got so much content right now, you really shouldn’t be afraid of people making progression faster, so yeah, I can’t see how much it would reduce your income by doing so, players will be greedy forever, they will still purchase silver lion, convert RP, or anything – for other vehicle they want to give a shot at, but you will also have more active players, I’m pretty sure.

 

Instead of teasing the limit of your player, it did not have to be like this.

There are plenty more I can be talking about, such as the helicopter issue (it is ridiculous btw) the tech tree issue (maybe easier access if a player is only interested in a part of it?) or the battle pass issue (The content offered is amazing, but it’s the single hardest battle pass I’ve ever seen in any game, the progression is incredibly painful to do, aka assigned task maybe done fast, but painful to do).

But hold up, those are really not important compare with the economy issue. This game is giving me pain because taking out an enemy does not give me enough amount of satisfaction to cancel out being taken out once, base on the income and repair that you are implementing.

 

So yeah, sort it out, of course I do not understand this game as much as you guys the manufacturer are, so the details will be eventually set by you. With that said, I am hoping that those details can also be discussed with us the players, right here right now, including things like the last update (that’s rolled back now) and all the previous, I think this will really, really help.

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My assumption with their attempts to slow progression is because like some other now elderly F2P games, such as Warframe, War Thunder probably has a vocal minority of players, some small percentage perhaps 5% or something over the overall playerbase, that have everything unlocked, that just have everything done and continue to play the game for fun not caring really about the economy or whatever. And when a new vehicle comes out, they just work on that a little bit and it's a task for them I'm sure, but it's pretty minor for them.

My assumption, because Warframe did this and has done this for some time, is that Gaijin has increasingly balanced the economy around those players, and I am sure it is really hard to actually make course corrections to the economy either way because, they are resting on the tip of a knife where if they make it too easy, too many players have everything and won't pay money, if they make it too hard, well, this happens - we get mad I guess.

Anyway, I did think about it for a moment and I thought hey, you know. I do wonder why they feel the need? Do they have some sort of like data that suggest players who have everything they want stop playing the game? I mean, if I had the choice, if I didn't HAVE to play higher tier vehicles - which I think is another problem, I think it probably has something to do with how they sell premiums lately where they invent a new tier so you need a new premium to efficiently research it - but anyway, if I didn't HAVE to play higher tier vehicles to research the ones I WANT, which I want mostly out of curiosity, I would fly planes I feel comfortable flying, or drive tanks I feel comfortable driving. Not even just 'the best ones' just the vehicles I LIKE.

The scenario where, players use 'the best vehicle' at all times, is a situation that only comes about out of desperation or a need for progression and forward movement, it could also be apathy, a lack of passion for any of the other vehicles at that given tier, but once again, that I would argue ties in with the need to progress.

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Also to remind you because of your actions, gaijin, we now loose important posts related to armament technologies and other stuff that was collected from all over the internet over the years like

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/489292-the-aim-7-sparrow-missile-technology-history-and-performance/

and

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/468522-the-aim-9-sidewinder-missile-technology-history-and-performance/

 

Edited by asd072
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In the article,u say that economy is the basic of earning money.It seems very reasonable,but,obuse the economic system also cause many problems:

1.Reduce enthusiasm with climb.The most of players,especially for paid players,their purpose is to play top level vehicles,but now,they have so much maintenance cost(sum of three Abrams is 24000,KD2.0 dont break even),even paying players cannot afford it.This reduces the player's desire to climb the techtree.

2.Game environment has been severely damaged.The high maintenance cost cause“more launch,more loss”,so many players select “once life game and quick exit”.In the top level and sub top level,game will end in a few minutes,thats so boring.

3.Premium vehicles cannot maintain value.when u cut off them earning rate,it hurts all paying players in fact,make them dont want pay anything again.

4.Script and hack.As the difficulty of obtaining silver coins increases,many players choose cheat,It only cause greater damage to the game and economic system.

 

 So,face this problems,I suggest:

1.High level vehicies must break even when KD1.0,It wll benefits for all players.It make everyone play tops and sub tops more relaxed,and reduce theirs enthusiasm with climb.If some vehiches have more battle efficiency,u can reduce maintenance costs and profitability simultaneously to make them get less in one battle.And the vulnerable vehicles,u can increase in revenue appropriate.

2.In one battle,appropriate econoInteresting and completemic incentives and reduce maintenance costs appropriately for second and third launch.It wll encourage players to launch more,make game Interesting and completed.

3.The rate of Premuim vehicles cannot be changed arbitrarily.If someone has high battle efficiency,u should balance it by BR,or increase maintenance costs slightly(1/2 silver vehicle is limit),rather than reduce the rate  to devalue it.

4.Increase the ban on scripts/hacks,dont indulge them even if  paid players.

 

For the problem with low payment power,I suggest:

1.Paid players should have more payment points and non combat payment advantages.Example,talisman can reduce maintenance costs and increase silver revenue,It can not only increase its value and increase players'desire to purchase, but also enable low skilled players to better play top vehicles through payment.

2.Painting, camouflage nets, decals and others can be sold as main products,Example, in battle pass,u can provide excellent camouflage nets(like leo2A4) to replace many crtl v vehicles,and add talisman(has economy benefit ) that can be selected independently,the battle pass sales are bound to increase significantly.

3.Produce more same BR premium vehicles to form a queue,produce more unique vehices instead of copy silver,make event/squad vehices turn to premium by payment,any more.U have so many ways.

 

 

To sum up,GAIJIN no need to earn money only by economic system,and healthy economic system is more important for game and players.so I hope u can change the current operational methods,this is very urgent.

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As one of the 20% players, who paid my fair share of more than $1,000, your previous and proposed economy changes almost pushed me to quit the game for good. Please listen to the community if you are not too short-sighted to run a sustainable business.

 

I am just an average player with a KD of 1. I bought a lot of your premium vehicles but also want to enjoy the top tier ones in the researchable lines. Joy of playing this game comes from getting some kills or at least earning some silver lions as consolation on bad days. There is absolutely no fun in seeing huge loss of SLs after match. You want people to spend gold coins on silver lions? No, it does not work for people like me. I only feel I am worthless and have a strong urge to delete the game if I cannot even afford the repairs after my fair play. Especially for the air battles, I simply give up grinding for the top tiers knowing I will not be able to afford 10k+ repairs as a Ace pilot.

 

Your economy principles focus on the big data, average figures. But there are always people below average, including paid and unpaid players. You are pushing all of them away. Getting rid of the bottom half of players, then what? Re-balance again? And getting rid of another bottom half of the remaining players? Congrats, you will get yourself a small group of cyber elite tankers/pilots/captains. Guess what? Half of them still losing SLs based on your principles. LOL

 

F2P games always rely on a small portion of paid players to survive. A larger player base = More paid players. There is no future for this game if you see unpaid players as a burden rather than an asset.

 

Please seriously review your economy decisions, focus on providing positive feedback after match and stop trying to squeeze a cent from everyone.

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6 minutes ago, HIDwhite@live said:

Gaijin just don't realize that, people play video game for fun, we don't want to make calculation before deploy a vehicle, can I gain positive SE this round?

Exactly, it's more fun to play WW2 tiers as people send out everything, while single car is popular in top tiers as a result of the continuous brilliant economy changes.

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  • Pacifica changed the title to Honest Feedback, Suggestions
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Merged 3-4 or so Topics, and Edited Title, no need to make new ones, Thanks!

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  • Pacifica changed the title to Honest Economy Feedback, Suggestions

maybe stop focus on one nation and start care about every nation in the game equally might be a good start

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1 hour ago, Pacifica said:

Merged 3-4 or so Topics, and Edited Title, no need to make new ones, Thanks!

Answer for each sentence would be MUCH more helpful and apriciated

I have a huge doubts this can end unless we will have direct communication with peoples in charge. Its a lot to discuss and even more to correct from both sides. if we keep exchange piles of text to each other it can last forever

Edited by asd072
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I'm only speaking for myself and my observations, but the perception that many aspects of the game are designed purely to make us use all our SL, or annoy us into buying/using GE to accelerate tediously slow progress is not easy to shake.  

 

What reason would there be - for example - to have a player spend SL to change a BP task, only for that exact same task to reappear a change or two later?

I'm no coder, but I know what the devs here are capable of, and if they can create all these cool vehicles and maps and mechanics then surely it'd be quite straightforward to exclude tasks we have paid to remove, so that they don't appear again within that days cycle.

 

As for progression and repairs, how can it be seen as normal situation that players grind their way to the top tiers, only to find themselves losing SL or barely breaking even each battle due to repairs?  How does that help them progress? How does that help them upgrade the current vehicle or accumulate enough SL to buy the next one?


It's completely unsustainable and is what will make players send themselves back to the mid tiers forever, or give up altogether.

 

 

Edited by Lt_PeteMitchell
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1 hour ago, Pacifica said:

Merged 3-4 or so Topics, and Edited Title, no need to make new ones, Thanks!

What is the reason for my topic merger with this one? It is not about economy changes

Pacifica (Posted )

My bad... feel free to PM me to try and fix it o7
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There are a number of ways of improving the in-game economy. I don't believe any player is expecting changes that would remove any incentive to pay money to progress faster, which I do believe is that paying players should be getting value for money, which does not appear to be the case.

 

Repair costs are a notable point of discussion, stated as something used to help with balancing. I believe, rather than applying absolute repair costs to individual vehicles, players should be taxed, up to a cap, on their earnings in a specific vehicle, meaning less skilled players will earn less, but never end up negative unless through negligence such as teamkilling. There are other factors to consider of course.  The overall average earnings may not change significantly, but players would see far fewer battles where they went negative, if any at all. Of course modifiers have to be in place to factor player activity, as you run the risk of botting where a player sits idly and earns from their time in game - in situations like this it may be prudent to apply an over 100% repair cost to a vehicle. Modifiers should also be applied for average player skill in a given vehicle as well as the relative positioning of a vehicle within the BR brackets in a battle. The huge number of factors, that modify a base repair percentage mean players see a tailored repair cost for their ability to play a specific vehicle - as players get better in a vehicle the earnings increase, but as does the risk when you die.

 

In order to incentivise payment to progress faster, more perks could be awarded to paying players. Premium account holders, for example, could get an extra 2x bonus for the first battle of the day (on top of the exiting premium modifiers), or a small amount of GE for finishing in first place, etc.... Similarly,  these modifiers ould be applied to premium vehicles as well - but applying to a single vehicle rather than account wide.

 

Many players are aware of the need for gaijin to make money from it in order to ensure continued development. It is of course important therefore that players spend money out of their willingness to support the game rather than spending it in order to enjoy the game. It may well be the case that at lower tiers it's relatively enjoyable without dropping any cash at all, but as you progress it's clear that there are systems in place to ensure you can barely break even as an average player. No player should be losing rewards for investing their time in the game - player counts are just as important as income from players as it shows the game is popular and makes new players want to take a look.

 

A common comment is 'yeah, war thunder is brilliant, but you won't be able to progress past BR x without paying money' - this turns people away. If the comment was 'yeah, war thunder is brilliant, you will be able to get to a vehicle you want, it might be a bit tough but it's possible'  then more players would stick around.

 

There are positive changes that can be made to the progression and economy system that benefit paid and free players as well as gaijin's wallet. In order to identify the exact changes there should be open and progressive discussion between players and the developers. If this has to mean multiple polls, Dev streams, surveys and multiple Dev server runs in order to test out new progression systems then so be it. Players will feel they are having a say in the development. A bottom line needs to be stated by gaijin, to give suggestions a basis, as many simply going 'remove repair costs' are clearly not sustainable from an economic perspective. However, a simple 'this isn't possible' doesn't suffice, there needs to be a discussion, either through appointed community liaisons or in streams and on forums - no opinion should be considered as wrong.

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Gaijin think the War Thunder experience is to grind through an entire tree and quit when you reach top tier. Instead, what should be is a $60 vehicle should allow someone to unlock and spade a whole tree in about 48 hours (like a AAA game), then let players have fun experiencing the vehicles THEY want!

 

Remember the 2017 April Fools event, where they added T-90, Leopard 2A5 and helicopters? There was no SP cost for vehicles. You just get in a vehicle, do your thing, die, spawn again with no limits, until tickets run out. The game was far less polished back then but it didn't matter because it was fun. You died? No biggie, you can just spawn back in. Today if you die because of some bug you get pissed, because that usually ends the match for you. You lost a lot of SL for that, your booster has gone to waste, time was wasted. 

Gaijin is strangling the player base not only in economy, but in sheer lack of creativity that leaves us getting pissed at the same old boring game modes that haven't changed since the game was released!

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Upon all the posts, chats, my feeling for playing this game for 10 years is that Gaijin is just a default company, they want to make money and just this.

Back in time, you can check the low rank vehicles, they are so well done, so many details on this. The newer vehicles are just collections of the same thing.

 

Further, they still blaming the players with apology about how the spoke about the update. WE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTER THERE, THIS IS THE REASON OF SO MUCH BLAME!!!

 

The game itself could be a gold mine for any bussiness expert, but now, sounds like the gaijin only want the Elite players. In a point where neither Premium Account and Vehicles are profitable anymore.

 

The player base is small because gaijin do not invest on marketing and merchandising.

It still getting worst because everyone has life and most of people cant afford pay to everything, they want to play and have fun.

The premium vehicles are getting worst and worst, few years ago Gaijin told that Jets are no premium to incentivize players to climb. And now?

 

I wrote a letter in the feedback form with so many Ideias, but now reading this reddit post, I understand that was just a waste of time, same as still playing this game.

 

I really wish all the best for everyone, but I sincerely don't see anything good in the horizon.

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Why do we even play this game anymore? To be f*cked  in the **** over and over again? I'm sorry for my language, but there's no other ways for me to describe exactly how I feel right now.

Yeah, no. Everything that I have achieved this far in this game, these 3 years I've been playing it actively could be taken away from me at ANY MOMENT. Exactly like what happened now. You took my toptier tanks away from me pretty much, how? Well I can't fkn pay for them. If I hit a positive K/D ratio with them, I STILL CAN'T MAKE IT GO AROUND. I DON'T MAKE ENOUGH SILVER LIONS TO COVER THE REPAIR COSTS. I HAVE A 1.1 K/D ON ALMOST ALL OF MY TOPTIER TANKS. And yet, I'm not bringing in enough. It's still too little for me to afford to repair them, heck, way too little to afford the next veichle. And what about squadron veichles? Yeah no, forget that. You'll never have enough SL for them. Yes, foolish me for not choosing to play Russia and wanting to play with my newly unlocked tanks. 

The point is, I'm tired. And I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to get stomped each game because I didn't buy that Premium, that the other guy is using to kill my entire team. We've already voiced our concerns, and how bad it is but you won't listen. No, why listen? You're still bringing in TONS OF MONEY FROM SELLING THESE OVERPOWERED PREMIUMS AT AN ABSURDELY LOW BATTLE RATING AND AN ABSURDLEY HIGH PRICE. But hey, the only way to make you listen is if there's enough of us complaning, hurting your profits.

That was all from me, feel free to remove this comment if you feel it violates your feelings or whatever "reason" you'll come up with. Let's be real. You are just trying to silence the community so you  can keep on doing the xxxx you want.

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I was thinking about this being merged into a suggestions thread too so I made simple and easy to understand suggestion I believe you don't have to be against

 

Vehicles should be unlocked gradually, from simpler and older to more complex and later:

-Players should be able to get even to top tier without going through a pay wall that exist right now and should NOT be able to buy top tier stuff

-Premium vehicles must be at least 1.3 BR lower then current top tier vehicles

-Premiums that already exist and does not meet criteria must be removed from shop or get their fate decided by dedicated discussion thread for each vehicle

 

The total time to get the first "top" vehicle should be a balanced:

-Total time to get top vehicle should be stated publicly for each type of player(prem\f2p\other if needed) and discussed with players on the ways to deal with it

-There must not be occasions when player need to grind for 12 months to get TT vehicle or use exploits to get it faster

-Don't kick in the balls players because someone else use bots, solutions against bots must not affect whole playerbase

 

The game can earn money, but not by trying to scam and manipulate players in bad manner:

-New shiny premium that looks cool is good, premium that break balance and ruin gameplay for everyone else is bad

-Premium vehicles should not give "fun" for a single player at the cost of other 10

 

Progression and economy should, as far as possible, provide a variety of vehicles encountered in battle:

-Fees system decided by player-on-vehicle efficiency must be removed completely

-Vehicles must get same fees based solely on their BR\Rank and decided by players how to feel about vehicles. Some vehicles are made to be used only in special occasions and that's ok

-Tech trees that already full of vehicles should be less prioritised then others. Nations that have least vehicles should get 2 to 1 vehicles relative to others unless it is a new naition\tech tree, special occasions must be discussed in dedicated threads

-Special vehicles which are obviously too good at farming are left untouched FOR NOW until their fate is decided by separate discussion on what to do with them. This will also lead to much easier management of economy

Edited by asd072

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On the topic of review-bombing:

I seemed to have missed that part in the post about review-bombing. It's pathetic that gaijin asked people not to review-bomb.

Review-bombing is destructive? It can stop people from trying out the game? It lowers profits? That's the point. That's how protest works. Suggestions? There is no reason for Gaijin to listen to suggestion. There is, however, reason to listen when they lose money.

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1 hour ago, Lanata said:

On the topic of review-bombing:

I seemed to have missed that part in the post about review-bombing. It's pathetic that gaijin asked people not to review-bomb.

Review-bombing is destructive? It can stop people from trying out the game? It lowers profits? That's the point. That's how protest works. Suggestions? There is no reason for Gaijin to listen to suggestion. There is, however, reason to listen when they lose money.

Yeah that was just pathetic. As soon as I read that paragraph I went on Steam and gave my honest review. Same for liking/disliking their Youtube videos which everyone with Vanced can see how many dislikes they have. It's a small step but together apes strong.

Edited by Zucc_Boi
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I haven't made my own review yet but I will say here beforehand that if I did it wouldn't be positive. Why? Because the keyword for Steam reviews is "recommend", as much as I enjoy playing the game myself, I won't recommend anyone to play it right now.

 

In fact, in the past I verbally recommended many of my friends to play it, and their consensus was that they thought the game was cool and all but the grind was too much for them. And that was before the recent changes, I can imagine how their reaction would be now.

 

So consider this this Gaijin, many players that install this game once, play a few hours and never again aren't doing this because of the reviews, it's because of the agressive economy. You guys could reach an even higher playerbse if you went easier on the grind.

 

I won't pretend I'm a game economy expert and suggest a magical fix, but I can say for sure that there's something wrong when people with similar interests and free time are dissuaded to play.

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3 minutes ago, Azinfriit said:

I haven't made my own review yet but I will say here beforehand that if I did it wouldn't be positive. Why? Because the keyword for Steam reviews is "recommend", as much as I enjoy playing the game myself, I won't recommend anyone to play it right now.

 

In fact, in the past I verbally recommended many of my friends to play it, and their consensus was that they thought the game was cool and all but the grind was too much for them. And that was before the recent changes, I can imagine how their reaction would be now.

 

So consider this this Gaijin, many players that install this game once, play a few hours and never again aren't doing this because of the reviews, it's because of the agressive economy. You guys could reach an even higher playerbse if you went easier on the grind.

 

I won't pretend I'm a game economy expert and suggest a magical fix, but I can say for sure that there's something wrong when people with similar interests and free time are dissuaded to play.

 

 

the in game economy is a magical fix with one thing; lesser SL repair costs. No reason that any repair cost should be over 5k in my mind at any point. 12k repair cost on the vicker mk1? really? same with the conqueror, 16k? seriously?

 

Edited by Cephalor
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