Tornado PGM 500/2000 - Germany getting screwed over yet again

[Godvana 533]

So if you haven't heard, Germany is once again getting the middle finger.

 

Quote

Good news, PGM 500/2000 will be coming the the GR.1 and Italian IDS. 

via @Gunjob

 

So, the UK and Italian Tornadoes will be getting a weapon which gives the Tornado actually standoff capability and so therefore resolve many of the existing issues with the Tornado, that being having to maintain a constant lock with a laser in order for the LGBs to be effective. The PGM achieves this by using a rocket booster and TV guidance and so therefore having fire-and-forget capabilities. As per Gunjob's post, the German Tornado IDS will not be receiving the PGM 500/2000. Why you may ask? Well, it was never mounted! But hold on... It wasn't mounted to the Italian Tornado either... And while it was mounted to the British Tornado it was never used operationally, or possibly even for testing.

 

Meanwhile the Tiger HAP and HAD? Literally incapable of guiding the HOT-3 yet it's still given them, only the OSIRIS sight on the UH Tiger had the guidance system necessary for the operation of these missiles (I have documented proof of this from Eurocopter). And the Kurnass 2000? Despite that fact the AN/APG-76 was unable to illuminate targets for the purpose of guiding an AIM-7 it was still given them. But you know what? I don't mind. The decision was made to slightly bend historical fact in order to better balance the game and to fill capability caps within their respective trees, so why can't it be done here to help the German Tornado? Giving the other Tornadoes PGM 500/2000s in the first place is already bending historical fact.

 

For me, this is really just the cherry on top of years of being kicked in the dirt. Soon to be approaching three years since Germany has received a top tier MBT meanwhile Sweden already had better Leopards than Germany and got ANOTHER top Leopard and ANOTHER 2A4 on top of that. Germany also received their new top jet a patch later then almost every other nation, despite the fact the German MiG-29 is almost identical to the Russian one. The difference? The MiG-29 (9.12A) has a slightly smaller dorsal spine. Meanwhile we have the F-4F which has two lousy AGM-65B and yet has THE SAME SPAWN COST as a Kurnass 2000 with 6 AGM-65Ds and 2 Paveway 2s.

 

@Smin1080p can us German players get some explanation as to why the developers chose to have the German Tornado objectively worse than the Tornadoes of other nations?

[Gunjob 1,094]

4 hours ago, Godvana said:

Why you may ask? Well, it was never mounted! But hold on... It wasn't mounted to the Italian Tornado either... And while it was mounted to the British Tornado it was never used operationally, or possibly even for testing.

If you can find a photo of the German IDS next to a PGM similar to the Italian IDS I will forward it. But we need atleast something as justification. 

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

5 hours ago, Godvana said:

 

 

@Smin1080p can us German players get some explanation as to why the developers chose to have the German Tornado objectively worse than the Tornadoes of other nations?

 

As Gunjob has already explained, there's currently no evidence connecting the German IDS to the weapon. Hence why we have not confirmed it for that aircraft.

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

5 hours ago, Godvana said:

Meanwhile the Tiger HAP and HAD? Literally incapable of guiding the HOT-3 yet it's still given them, only the OSIRIS sight on the UH Tiger had the guidance system necessary for the operation of these missiles (I have documented proof of this from Eurocopter). 

 

If you would like a developer response on this, please feel free to submit a report with your evidence.

 

5 hours ago, Godvana said:

 And the Kurnass 2000? Despite that fact the AN/APG-76 was unable to illuminate targets for the purpose of guiding an AIM-7 it was still given them. 

 

This matter has already been reported and is under review. The developers have not had time to review and conclude the investigation, so we don't have an outcome to report currently.

[da12thmonkey 43]

7 hours ago, Godvana said:

or possibly even for testing.

It was assessed by Britain on Tornado GR.1 as Hakim/PGM series munitions were heavily involved in a deal where RAF were going to lease a bunch of GR.1s to the UAE with an order for GR.4s.

https://www.flightglobal.com/uk-offers-tornado-gr4-to-uae/11127.article

Quote

UK offers Tornado GR4 to UAE
24 JANUARY, 1996
Douglas Barrie/LONDON

THE UK IS TO OFFER the United Arab Emirates (UAE) new-build Panavia Tornado GR4s to meet its strike-aircraft requirement, with British Aerospace now completing a bid worth more than £1.5 billion ($2.27 billion).
The Gulf state is to be offered 24 Tornado GR4s, along with an initial lease of 12 Tornado GR1s drawn from Royal Air Force stock as an interim until the GR4s are manufactured.
The GR4, an upgraded variant of the GR1, would be built at BAe's Warton site in the north of England. Whitehall and industry sources confirm that a bid is being finalised.
The attempted sale is being complicated by political factors relating to continuing negotiations over a defence memorandum of understanding, and the UAE's aim to procure a long-range stand-off missile for the aircraft selected.
The UAE's original intention was to fund development of a derivative (rumoured to be called Centaur) of its Hakim missile family, developed by GEC-Marconi. A long-range variant known as the Pegasus is already being proposed to meet a similar RAF requirement.
The UAE is understood to have suggested that, if the UK were to purchase the Pegasus, then it would look favourably upon a GR4/ Centaur package.
GEC, however, has experienced problems with the release of some subsystems for the Pegasus missile, for which French suppliers were selected (Flight International, 29 November-6 December, 1995). France is also competing for the UAE's strike-aircraft and missile requirements, offering the Dassault Mirage 2000-5 and the Matra Apache. Matra is also proposing the Apache (with BAe) for the RAF's stand-off missile requirement. French suppliers which had been selected by GEC included SNPE (for the warhead), Microturbo (engine) and Sextant Avionique (navigation equipment).
In the meantime, Sextant Avionique is believed to have dropped out of the bid led by GEC, which has also selected UK back-up manufacturers should problems with the remaining French-sourced equipment persist

There are several photos of one of the UK's Strike Attack Operational Evaluation Unit GR.1 fitted with Hakim - it's was literally the job of SAOEU to test and evaluate weapons. There's no date on the images so it's unclear whether the testing photograph was done for the sake of UAE's evaluation of Tornado or for the UK's own evaluation of Hakim. It seems it was considered twice: once in its Hakim/PGM-1/PGM-2 incarnation when RAF was looking to supplement Paveway capabilities and ended up with Enhanced Paveway, and later in it's turbojet-powered form as Pegasus/PGM-4 that vied for CASOM - the project that resulted in Storm Shadow/SCALP

The munition was looked upon favourably because PGM is a weapon developed by a British company with UK export control (in spite of being funded by UAE and built to their requirements), and indeed the UK temporarily exerted it's right to block sales of the munition to UAE

https://www.flightglobal.com/uk-clears-hakim-for-sale-to-uae/16789.article

 

Now, I'd consider Italy getting it as well, as being quite tenuous. Only reasons I see is that it happened to be on a stand with Italian Tornado at Farnborough with some other British munitions Italy don't actually use (and honestly I don't think the photo even shows PGM, it looks like bombs fitted with ballute tails to me), and Marconi's later merger with Alenia while Hakim was still in development. But the UK's involvement in the entire Hakim/PGM project, and Hakim's involvement with the UK's Tornado GR.1 is undeniable. Ultimately UK/Tornado GR.1 involvement is larger than the French Air Force's or indeed Mirage 2000-5F (UAE doesn't use it on Mirage 2000-5F, it's Mirage 2000-9). France itself doesn't use it and have their own AASM/Hammer munitions, so never any interest in PGM.

Germany on the other hand has zero links or expressed interests in Hakim/PGM

Edited May 25, 2023 by da12thmonkey

[x_Shini_ 434]

53 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

As Gunjob has already explained, there's currently no evidence connecting the German IDS to the weapon. Hence why we have not confirmed it for that aircraft.

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

 

If you would like a developer response on this, please feel free to submit a report with your evidence.

 

 

This matter has already been reported and is under review. The developers have not had time to review and conclude the investigation, so we don't have an outcome to report currently.

I wont argue about the tornado using this weapon, BUT it is the truth that germany gets shafted, the view things that germany got are nearly broken or missing their defining features. Gepard1A2 since implementation the proxy stingers dont work, it is missing its main armament FAPDS and other targeting features, the Puma has so many problems it isnt even nice anymore, Muss system 360° protection even advertised by you guys like that still missing, the Muss system being invsible to thermal missing, ahead ammunion useless as anti air its main purpose, auto programming missing it is equivalent to proxy ammo but you dont do anything about it. You overworked the gun model and the overhead but it is still to high. The precision is to low when you yourself say the rate of fire is specialy lowered to have realy high precision. I am not knowledgeable enough about armor but it has multiple problems as well.

 

It would be nice if you could tell us at least a tiny abiut what the plans are for german, because currently it realy seems like you guys dont care

[Jεcka 4,618]

There's a very simple solution to Luftwaffe IDS not receiving the PGM 500/2000, I present:

Quote

Edited May 25, 2023 by Holouu

[Mayzzt 2]

33 minutes ago, Holouu said:

There's a very simple solution to Luftwaffe IDS not receiving the PGM 500/2000, I present:

When you absolutely have to snipe enemy bases from across the whole map.

[Thodin 6,784]

1 hour ago, Smin1080p said:

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

 

Italy never operated or possessed this piece of ordnance. Not even the british fully adopted it beyond testing purposes. If Italy gets this its just an idicator how weird Warthunder rulemaking is with adding or denying stuff.

[BagelIsMyWaifu 838]

@Smin1080p since PGMs are unlikely for the German Tornado, is there any chance it could get access to LaGS? I did a report for that some time ago, but it was rejected because its newer than the ASSTA 1 mod. This doesnt mean its incompatible with ASSTA1

Also wouldnt need extensive moddeling as its visually identical to the AIM-9L

 

[Godvana 533]

2 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

As Gunjob has already explained, there's currently no evidence connecting the German IDS to the weapon. Hence why we have not confirmed it for that aircraft.

 

The British GR.1 is photographed to have tested the bombs.Whereas the Italian community submited evidence for the Italian IDS showing a reasonable connection:

 

What exactly is the test of 'reasonableness' here? I can understand the GR1 because Britain had a large part in the development of the PGM and there are photos showing it mounted on a GR1, but for the Italian Tornado? It's literally just a case of them being in the same picture... at an AIR SHOW, not even a proper military testing or evaluation setting. The test of reasonableness is so nebulous and inconsistent, I don't see how any reasonable person could be expected to understand it. Take the AGM-65 for example, many primary sources state it can be used on the Tornado with it even be present alongside Tornadoes at air shows, but it's generally accepted that it was likely never integrated with the Tornado platform. But this image is somehow enough evidence for Gaijin that Italian Tornadoes could use the PGM? Depsite the fact that it is known the Italians had nothing to do with the development of the PGM, never purchased the PGM, and never evaluated the PGM. In the interest of fairness, if the Italian Tornado receives the PGM then so should the German Tornado.

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

30 minutes ago, BagelIsMyWaifu said:

@Smin1080p since PGMs are unlikely for the German Tornado, is there any chance it could get access to LaGS? I did a report for that some time ago, but it was rejected because its newer than the ASSTA 1 mod. This doesnt mean its incompatible with ASSTA1

Also wouldnt need extensive moddeling as its visually identical to the AIM-9L

 

 

Further modifications or variants of the Tornado with possible upgrades may be possible in the future. 

[Thodin 6,784]

25 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Further modifications or variants of the Tornado with possible upgrades may be possible in the future. 

 

When Italy gets stuff added, just because of a photo which shows a PGM and a italian Tornado together at a british air show ... why can't you use similar tedious standards for Germany  For Ger always everything to be precisely proven with alot independent accounts. Ofc only primary accounts are accepted and not even then something  happens. Whats the catch there?

 

Edit: I'm just asking cause I tried the same couple of months ago. A photo from an airshow with an IDS and some ordnance presented next to it. It was rejected by techmods and the community as well^^

Edited May 25, 2023 by Thodin

[Undefined_N 36]

1 hour ago, Godvana said:

I can understand the GR1 because Britain had a large part in the development

Maybe actually check who developed them?

[IngegnerMacchi 623]

"germany get screwed over again". you are joking. you got an event tornado with kormoran missiles at lower br than the others with said weapon system the others didn't get. stop complaining over nothing, you always get all but the end of the stick

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

The PGM family is a Anglo-Italian series of bombs that were both tested on the Italian and British Tornado. What is the connection with Germany? Simply it doesn't exist

[IngegnerMacchi 623]

10 hours ago, Godvana said:

So if you haven't heard, Germany is once again getting the middle finger.

 

via @Gunjob

 

So, the UK and Italian Tornadoes will be getting a weapon which gives the Tornado actually standoff capability and so therefore resolve many of the existing issues with the Tornado, that being having to maintain a constant lock with a laser in order for the LGBs to be effective. The PGM achieves this by using a rocket booster and TV guidance and so therefore having fire-and-forget capabilities. As per Gunjob's post, the German Tornado IDS will not be receiving the PGM 500/2000. Why you may ask? Well, it was never mounted! But hold on... It wasn't mounted to the Italian Tornado either... And while it was mounted to the British Tornado it was never used operationally, or possibly even for testing.

 

Meanwhile the Tiger HAP and HAD? Literally incapable of guiding the HOT-3 yet it's still given them, only the OSIRIS sight on the UH Tiger had the guidance system necessary for the operation of these missiles (I have documented proof of this from Eurocopter). And the Kurnass 2000? Despite that fact the AN/APG-76 was unable to illuminate targets for the purpose of guiding an AIM-7 it was still given them. But you know what? I don't mind. The decision was made to slightly bend historical fact in order to better balance the game and to fill capability caps within their respective trees, so why can't it be done here to help the German Tornado? Giving the other Tornadoes PGM 500/2000s in the first place is already bending historical fact.

 

For me, this is really just the cherry on top of years of being kicked in the dirt. Soon to be approaching three years since Germany has received a top tier MBT meanwhile Sweden already had better Leopards than Germany and got ANOTHER top Leopard and ANOTHER 2A4 on top of that. Germany also received their new top jet a patch later then almost every other nation, despite the fact the German MiG-29 is almost identical to the Russian one. The difference? The MiG-29 (9.12A) has a slightly smaller dorsal spine. Meanwhile we have the F-4F which has two lousy AGM-65B and yet has THE SAME SPAWN COST as a Kurnass 2000 with 6 AGM-65Ds and 2 Paveway 2s.

 

@Smin1080p can us German players get some explanation as to why the developers chose to have the German Tornado objectively worse than the Tornadoes of other nations?

uhuh cause italy didn't develop said weapons system right? oh poor german fellas, they always are the one forgotten :,( not like they get fake vehicles and ENTIRE PLANES WITH WEAPONS SYSTEM for them only

4 hours ago, x_Shini_ said:

I wont argue about the tornado using this weapon, BUT it is the truth that germany gets shafted, the view things that germany got are nearly broken or missing their defining features. Gepard1A2 since implementation the proxy stingers dont work, it is missing its main armament FAPDS and other targeting features, the Puma has so many problems it isnt even nice anymore, Muss system 360° protection even advertised by you guys like that still missing, the Muss system being invsible to thermal missing, ahead ammunion useless as anti air its main purpose, auto programming missing it is equivalent to proxy ammo but you dont do anything about it. You overworked the gun model and the overhead but it is still to high. The precision is to low when you yourself say the rate of fire is specialy lowered to have realy high precision. I am not knowledgeable enough about armor but it has multiple problems as well.

 

It would be nice if you could tell us at least a tiny abiut what the plans are for german, because currently it realy seems like you guys dont care

is all but true that germany get shafted, You literally had the best tornado in game + an additional one with radar and Kormoran missiles

4 hours ago, da12thmonkey said:

It was assessed by Britain on Tornado GR.1 as Hakim/PGM series munitions were heavily involved in a deal where RAF were going to lease a bunch of GR.1s to the UAE with an order for GR.4s.

https://www.flightglobal.com/uk-offers-tornado-gr4-to-uae/11127.article

There are several photos of one of the UK's Strike Attack Operational Evaluation Unit GR.1 fitted with Hakim - it's was literally the job of SAOEU to test and evaluate weapons. There's no date on the images so it's unclear whether the testing photograph was done for the sake of UAE's evaluation of Tornado or for the UK's own evaluation of Hakim. It seems it was considered twice: once in its Hakim/PGM-1/PGM-2 incarnation when RAF was looking to supplement Paveway capabilities and ended up with Enhanced Paveway, and later in it's turbojet-powered form as Pegasus/PGM-4 that vied for CASOM - the project that resulted in Storm Shadow/SCALP

The munition was looked upon favourably because PGM is a weapon developed by a British company with UK export control (in spite of being funded by UAE and built to their requirements), and indeed the UK temporarily exerted it's right to block sales of the munition to UAE

https://www.flightglobal.com/uk-clears-hakim-for-sale-to-uae/16789.article

 

Now, I'd consider Italy getting it as well, as being quite tenuous. Only reasons I see is that it happened to be on a stand with Italian Tornado at Farnborough with some other British munitions Italy don't actually use (and honestly I don't think the photo even shows PGM, it looks like bombs fitted with ballute tails to me), and Marconi's later merger with Alenia while Hakim was still in development. But the UK's involvement in the entire Hakim/PGM project, and Hakim's involvement with the UK's Tornado GR.1 is undeniable. Ultimately UK/Tornado GR.1 involvement is larger than the French Air Force's or indeed Mirage 2000-5F (UAE doesn't use it on Mirage 2000-5F, it's Mirage 2000-9). France itself doesn't use it and have their own AASM/Hammer munitions, so never any interest in PGM.

Germany on the other hand has zero links or expressed interests in Hakim/PGM

mh clearly you didn't dig enough in the weapon system since it was developed both by italy and britain together  i would suggest you to look a bit further into things before crying as always in the forums instead of proving connections like other communities do

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

So for example, the German Tornado in real life has IRIS-T and the Italian Tornado has AIM9M. Following Your reasoning the Italian Tornado in future should get IRIS-T as well just because it will perform worse than the German one? No. And That was just an example identical to this useless discussion. You can't ask for a weapon with no connection to Your aircraft, just because "it will be worse". That is not how it work.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio

[TerikG2014 1,389]

17 minutes ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

would suggest you to look a bit further into things before crying as always in the forums instead of proving connections like other communities do

To be fair your claim to it being an joint development  is due to it being part of a joint venture company  but form my reading into it doesn't look like development  left the UK given the UK government  holds the export control.

[Lord_Prism 1,826]

4 hours ago, Holouu said:

There's a very simple solution to Luftwaffe IDS not receiving the PGM 500/2000, I present:

Exactly, why cant we get a nerfed version of KEPD 350? (500km is a bit much currently)

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Prism said:

Exactly, why cant we get a nerfed version of KEPD 350? (500km is a bit much currently)

The only issue is that cruise missiles can't lock tank but they will be useful against base and airports. For sure I will not ask the KEPD 350 for Italy since we never had it despite in teorically our tornado was able as well to carry it

Edited May 25, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio

[Godvana 533]

1 minute ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

"germany get screwed over again". you are joking. you got an event tornado with kormoran missiles at lower br than the others with said weapon system the others didn't get. stop complaining over nothing, you always get all but the end of the stick

 

10 minutes ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

is all but true that germany get shafted, You literally had the best tornado in game + an additional one with radar and Kormoran missiles

 

The Marineflieger Tornado is a $40 event vehicle and if you played it even once you would know the Kormorans are entirely useless. The German Tornado is exactly the same as the Italian Tornado, and the British Tornado has only slightly worse engines with slightly better bombs. Not sure why you consider the German one the best when it is the same as the others...

 

26 minutes ago, Undefined_N said:

Maybe actually check who developed them?

 

13 minutes ago, IngegnerMacchi said:

mh clearly you didn't dig enough in the weapon system since it was developed both by italy and britain together  i would suggest you to look a bit further into things before crying as always in the forums instead of proving connections like other communities do

 

15 minutes ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

The PGM family is a Anglo-Italian series of bombs that were both tested on the Italian and British Tornado. What is the connection with Germany? Simply it doesn't exist

 

The PGM development was first conducted by the American company International Signal and Control in 1984. ISC was then bought by the British company Ferranti in 1987 before Ferranti was then purchased by another British Company, GEC-Marconi in 1991 where development of the PGM would be completed, entering service with the UAE in 1992. Alenia Marconi Systems was only formed in 1998, so Italy had literally nothing to do with the PGM.

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

1 minute ago, Godvana said:

 

 

The Marineflieger Tornado is a $40 event vehicle and if you played it even once you would know the Kormorans are entirely useless. The German Tornado is exactly the same as the Italian Tornado, and the British Tornado has only slightly worse engines with slightly better bombs. Not sure why you consider the German one the best when it is the same as the others...

 

 

 

 

The PGM development was first conducted by the American company International Signal and Control in 1984. ISC was then bought by the British company Ferranti in 1987 before Ferranti was then purchased by another British Company, GEC-Marconi in 1991 where development of the PGM would be completed, entering service with the UAE in 1992. Alenia Marconi Systems was only formed in 1998, so Italy had literally nothing to do with the PGM.

But my question was another one. What did Germany for have a connection and this bomb in the game?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio

[Godvana 533]

1 minute ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

But my question was another one. What did Germany for have a connection and this bomb in the game?

 

Nothing, and neither did Italy but for some reason the Italian Tornado is receiving it and the German one is not. That's the point of this thread.

[Lord_Prism 1,826]

8 minutes ago, Il_Signor_Regio said:

The only issue is that cruise missiles can't lock tank but they will be useful against base and airports. For sure I will not ask the KEPD 350 for Italy since we never had it despite in teorically our tornado was able as well to carry it

AFAIK, the KEPD 350 uses both an INS/GPS and Infrared imaging system to lock targets, so theoretically it could lock tanks. I'd imagine they'd operate as really oversized mavericks 

[Il_Signor_Regio 153]

8 minutes ago, Godvana said:

 

Nothing, and neither did Italy but for some reason the Italian Tornado is receiving it and the German one is not. That's the point of this thread.

And You are wrong, again and again. The Italian conpany Alenia was involved 

there are multiple sources who states this

Edited May 25, 2023 by Il_Signor_Regio