aircraft Dornier Do 335 Urgently needs to be fixed its 3D modeling

[pieve 3,578]

When the Dornier Do 335 was released in update 1.57 in 2016 by Gaijin, I noticed that the model of Dornier's Do 335 is wrong in the game, both the 3D modeling and the flying model. And that's been 7 years without fixing this aircraft in the game.

 

I realized that Gaijin historically did not give much importance to such a magnificent aircraft that was the Dornier Do 335 at the end of the war, which we already know was the fastest piston aircraft ever built by the Luftwaffe and advanced as well. However, I see that the 3D model needs to be corrected and its flight model, which is well outside the historical reality of this aircraft. Now let's go to the problems of this aircraft.

 

I'm going to talk about the first error that I saw, which is the Dornier Do 335 B-2 that is in this link, just see the real model of the aircraft and the game and you will understand

 

The second error is from the Dornier Do 335 A-0 and A-1 which are also here:

 

Another problem is the Dornier Do 335's lack of fire extinguishers and the self-sealing fuel tanks in the game, basically this does not exist in the aircraft.

Spoiler

Here you can see original documents of the Dornier Do 335, where its extinguisher is located just behind its rear engine to put out the fire in case of engine fire or in combat

 

Spoiler

And these fire extinguishers are on all versions of the Dornier Do 335

 

Spoiler

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by pieve

[Real K Soze@live 407]

1 hour ago, pieve said:

I realized that Gaijin historically did not give much importance to such a magnificent aircraft that was the Dornier Do 335 at the end of the war, which we already know was the fastest piston aircraft ever built by the Luftwaffe and advanced as well.

 

I think a lot of guys share your assessment regarding the way gajin handles this plane. Imho your bug reports are just the tip of the iceberg - the real improvements should focus on flight performance and handling. I mean the lower BR 335s are basically free kills if you deny headons.

 

If you want to continue with bug reports, you might find some additional points to put some attention regarding in-game and irl issues:

 

 

Have in mind that the thread was intentionally derailed by the usual suspects and lost about one third of its posts "over night" when the forum mods cleaned up the mess and eliminated insults and provoking posts; so sometimes it might be confusing to read.

 

Anyway thanks for your efforts so far and have a good one!

 

 

[Josephs_Piano 7,044]

With the documentation you need to make it a bug report

[pieve 3,578]

On 29/05/2023 at 19:33, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

I think a lot of guys share your assessment regarding the way gajin handles this plane. Imho your bug reports are just the tip of the iceberg - the real improvements should focus on flight performance and handling. I mean the lower BR 335s are basically free kills if you deny headons.

 

If you want to continue with bug reports, you might find some additional points to put some attention regarding in-game and irl issues:

 

 

Have in mind that the thread was intentionally derailed by the usual suspects and lost about one third of its posts "over night" when the forum mods cleaned up the mess and eliminated insults and provoking posts; so sometimes it might be confusing to read.

 

Anyway thanks for your efforts so far and have a good one!

 

 

Yes, I've seen this topic on the forum. However, they did not enter into the fact that both models are all wrong, starting with the fact that all DB 603 engines have the same performance and there is no difference between them. question of performance of the Dornier Do 335 does not even come close to real life, the first prototype of the Dornier 335 did 612 km/h at a low altitude of 500 meters and in the game it barely does that.

 

And the fact also that the maneuverability of the Dornier Do 335 in real life is well praised and in the game it is not so good, all tests were done by pilots of great recognition, both German and Allied and both praised the Dornier Do 335, for the fact of it being big they thought it was not a very maneuverable aircraft, however when they flew the Do 335 they saw that it was very maneuverable and this is all documented by the Germans and allies at the end of the war.

 

remembering that there are also criticisms about the Dornier Do 335 due to the fact that the rear engine overheated, a problem with the landing gear that was very fragile due to its weight... and that at least is correct in the game about engine overheating

 

a curiosity for you, at the end of the war when the allies captured the Dornier Do 335 they did comparative tests to see its performance capacity and it proved to be much superior to their planes, an example of this were the tests carried out by the British against an American P-47 D -30 to see his performance he flew and proved to be superior at maximum speed and the tests were done at low altitude, medium and high altitude and Dornier came out in front showing to be better. a simulated combat was also made to see how the two aircraft would behave, it also proved to be better than the American P-47, in some aspects the P-47 proved to be better

 

Spoiler

in the photo you can see the Dornier being prepared

Spoiler

 

In the graph at the bottom you always see the speed above 550 km/h and you can also see your altitude over the speed at a low altitude from 1000 meters to 1500 meters

Spoiler

 

 

The French also did tests with the Dornier Do 335 and there were two different models, one was the Dornier Do 335 B-2 V-14 prototype and the other was the Dornier Do 335 B-6 V-17 prototype and they were all taken to the Arsenal de l'Aéronautique factory, where they were refitted and evaluated by the French for test purposes and flown to see their performance until 1949, where testing ended to begin the new era, which was jet engines

 

Also another curiosity, at the Arsenal de l'Aéronautique factory where the Arsenal VB-10 was being built, simulated combat tests were also carried out to see the performance of both aircraft, the tests were carried out with the two captured models of the Dornier Do 335 , the Dornier Do 335 again proved to be superior to the French Arsenal VB-10 aircraft. In the tests that were made of the three aircraft, what stood out was the Dornier Do 335 B-2, which proved to be better in all tests.

 

Spoiler

In the picture above you can see a Dornier Do 335 B-2 V-14 being taken by the allies

 

Spoiler

Pictured is a Dornier Do 335 B-6 being evaluated for low-altitude flight performance in 1946 at the Arsenal factory.

Edited May 31, 2023 by pieve

[pieve 3,578]

On 29/05/2023 at 19:39, Josephs_Piano said:

With the documentation you need to make it a bug report

all the reports about it have already been done

[Real K Soze@live 407]

1 hour ago, pieve said:

Yes, I've seen this topic on the forum.

 

Thanks for additional photos and information. Good luck with your project "make the Pfeil great again".

 

Have a good one!

 

[Metrallaroja 1,326]

18 hours ago, pieve said:

starting with the fact that all DB 603 engines have the same performance and there is no difference between them.

In fact every Db603 in the game is different, even the ones that are very similar.

 

18 hours ago, pieve said:

question of performance of the Dornier Do 335 does not even come close to real life, the first prototype of the Dornier 335 did 612 km/h at a low altitude of 500 meters and in the game it barely does that.

At 500m the slowest Do335 in game (A1) does 627kph, A0 does 633kph and B2 does 655kph.

 

18 hours ago, pieve said:

And the fact also that the maneuverability of the Dornier Do 335 in real life is well praised and in the game it is not so good, all tests were done by pilots of great recognition, both German and Allied and both praised the Dornier Do 335, for the fact of it being big they thought it was not a very maneuverable aircraft, however when they flew the Do 335 they saw that it was very maneuverable and this is all documented by the Germans and allies at the end of the war.

Pilots feelings are not scientific and in game they alread turn fairly good for what they are.

 

18 hours ago, pieve said:

In the graph at the bottom you always see the speed above 550 km/h and you can also see your altitude over the speed at a low altitude from 1000 meters to 1500 meters

In game do335 is overall faster than that graph

 

On 29/05/2023 at 22:48, pieve said:

I realized that Gaijin historically did not give much importance to such a magnificent aircraft that was the Dornier Do 335 at the end of the war, which we already know was the fastest piston aircraft ever built by the Luftwaffe and advanced as well. However, I see that the 3D model needs to be corrected and its flight model, which is well outside the historical reality of this aircraft.

I dont see anything wrong with its flightmodel

 

[pieve 3,578]

6 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

In fact every Db603 in the game is different, even the ones that are very similar.

you are wrong about that my friend it is basically copy and paste of the DB 603 engine the only engine that has a difference in performance in the game is the DB 603 DC of the BF-109 K-4 and the Ta-152 C-3 with the best engine which is the DB 603 LA.

6 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

At 500m the slowest Do335 in game (A1) does 627kph, A0 does 633kph and B2 does 655kph.

you're wrong again about that value, it can't outrun almost any aircraft at low altitude or high altitude, and I'm not even talking about the fact that it can dive to gain speed, it just flew level. you have to understand that acceleration is different from top speed. All this I'm talking about was recorded by the Germans and allies who tested the Dornier Do 335 and the game simply cannot come close to the real value. Did you know that the Germans during the second world war feared the Tempest Mk.V because it was the fastest plane at low altitude? almost no German aircraft could chase the Tempest Mk.V at that altitude, the only planes that the Tempest Mk.V feared were the Me-262 and Ta-152 H-1 which were planes with excellent performance. And you already know what I'm going to refer to here, right? French pilot Pierre Clostermann claimed the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945 and you see the Tempest Mk.V had a hard time chasing.

 

And I can say that because I play him a lot and I know what I'm talking about. And by the way you don't even play that much with Dornier 335 to draw those conclusions.

6 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

Pilots feelings are not scientific and in game they alread turn fairly good for what they are.

dude what are you talking about? The plane was tested by the best pilots of the time and the engineers who made evaluations of studies of the structure of the plane in the wind tunnel. 

 the plane was 4 years of development to get to this point and you mean the game data is right? you forget they were all tested by pilots and studied by engineers who evaluated the structure in a wind tunnel.

6 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

In game do335 is overall faster than that graph

again I'll say it's not

6 hours ago, Metrallaroja said:

I dont see anything wrong with its flightmodel

not only in the flight model but also in your modeling that is wrong

[Metrallaroja 1,326]

34 minutes ago, pieve said:

you are wrong about that my friend it is basically copy and paste of the DB 603 engine the only engine that has a difference in performance in the game is the DB 603 DC of the BF-109 K-4 and the Ta-152 C-3 with the best engine which is the DB 603 LA.

In game engine data is different for every db603, A0 gets Gm1, A1 is very similar to G56 but a bit different, B3 gets MW50, C3 gets MW50 and improved crit alt.

Db 603 DC does not even exist, K4 uses a Db605.

41 minutes ago, pieve said:

you're wrong again about that value, it can't outrun almost any aircraft at low altitude or high altitude, and I'm not even talking about the fact that it can dive to gain speed, it just flew level. you have to understand that acceleration is different from top speed. All this I'm talking about was recorded by the Germans and allies who tested the Dornier Do 335 and the game simply cannot come close to the real value. Did you know that the Germans during the second world war feared the Tempest Mk.V because it was the fastest plane at low altitude? almost no German aircraft could chase the Tempest Mk.V at that altitude, the only planes that the Tempest Mk.V feared were the Me-262 and Ta-152 H-1 which were planes with excellent performance. And you already know what I'm going to refer to here, right? French pilot Pierre Clostermann claimed the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945 and you see the Tempest Mk.V had a hard time chasing.

 

And I can say that because I play him a lot and I know what I'm talking about. And by the way you don't even play that much with Dornier 335 to draw those conclusions.

36 minutes ago, pieve said:

again I'll say it's not

I'm correct by in game flight test data and yes Im talking about straight level top speeds.

No, I dont need to have a lot of matches in a plane to test it and your experience playing it do not represent the reality of its flight model top speed.

44 minutes ago, pieve said:

dude what are you talking about? The plane was tested by the best pilots of the time and the engineers who made evaluations of studies of the structure of the plane in the wind tunnel. 

 the plane was 4 years of development to get to this point and you mean the game data is right? you forget they were all tested by pilots and studied by engineers who evaluated the structure in a wind tunnel.

Like every other fighter then. What does it have of special?

If you have real data that contradicts in game data then we can talk, but german fairy tales are not realistic and do not have any value other than speculation.

In short, unrealistic representations of planes in books and fairy tales can lead to the incorrect perception of characteristics that a plane never had.

Flight models are based on real data and numbers, not text.

[UnknownDistance@psn 2,216]

Every time someone posts about revising the Do-335 flight models they never identify any sources or actual data. The last time this came up all of the available sources showed that the Do-335 in-game performs a little better than it's real life counterpart by an insignificant margin.

 

51 minutes ago, pieve said:

 the first Allied combat encounter with a Pfeil in April 1945 and you see the Tempest Mk.V had a hard time chasing.

 

This is purely anecdotal without much context behind it. In-game the Do.335 is barely slower or barely faster than the Tempest Mk.V at low to medium altitudes depending on the variant.

 

Real life pilots do not have little markers on enemy planes that let them know the specific distance that they are away and whether or not they are closing or gaining on an enemy plane. Also real life pilots do engage their war emergency power just to chase down a lone enemy plane which was the case of Closterman's encounter with the Do-335. 

 

1 hour ago, pieve said:

dude what are you talking about? The plane was tested by the best pilots of the time and the engineers who made evaluations of studies of the structure of the plane in the wind tunnel. 

 the plane was 4 years of development to get to this point and you mean the game data is right? you forget they were all tested by pilots and studied by engineers who evaluated the structure in a wind tunnel.

 

Where is the data? Why don't you share it? Do you have it?

[pieve 3,578]

10 minutes ago, Metrallaroja said:

In game engine data is different for every db603, A0 gets Gm1, A1 is very similar to G56 but a bit different, B3 gets MW50, C3 gets MW50 and improved crit alt.

yes, I completely agree with you on that point, we also have to take into account altitude, fuel mixture, pressure, compressor stage... now that part I said there DB 603 DC was a typing error, but it is DB 605 DC. The fact I'm talking about is Gaijin's copy and paste of most aircraft in the game. I think you can't understand my point of view or I expressed it badly

15 minutes ago, Metrallaroja said:

I'm correct by in game flight test data and yes Im talking about straight level top speeds.

No, I dont need to have a lot of matches in a plane to test it and your experience playing it do not represent the reality of its flight model top speed.

I'm not talking about maximum speed, but acceleration, which is not correct.

 

of course you have to have experience, it's not just thinking that you've researched to be able to test half an hour of departure to give your opinion and you have to leave it up. And again you're talking about top speed here.

18 minutes ago, Metrallaroja said:

Like every other fighter then. What does it have of special?

If you have real data that contradicts in game data then we can talk, but german fairy tales are not realistic and do not have any value other than speculation.

In short, unrealistic representations of planes in books and fairy tales can lead to the incorrect perception of characteristics that a plane never had.

Flight models are based on real data and numbers, not text.

you yourself leave your contradictory answer. I'll talk again here, okay? All flight and reporting data are at the National Air and Space Museum. Simple, you just go there and get it, and it wouldn't be difficult for Gaijin. and there's nothing like fairy tales, but real reports.
magazines and books are not simply making up a story, they are sources taken from real documents.

 

Also, it's not just the flight performance problem, but the 3D model needs to be fixed as well. And Gaijin could give canopy animations, pilot ejection that would be cool too, could improve the texture of the plane... not just performance here

 

[pieve 3,578]

 

12 minutes ago, UnknownDistance@psn said:

Every time someone posts about revising the Do-335 flight models they never identify any sources or actual data. The last time this came up all of the available sources showed that the Do-335 in-game performs a little better than it's real life counterpart by an insignificant margin.

 

 

This is purely anecdotal without much context behind it. In-game the Do.335 is barely slower or barely faster than the Tempest Mk.V at low to medium altitudes depending on the variant.

 

Real life pilots do not have little markers on enemy planes that let them know the specific distance that they are away and whether or not they are closing or gaining on an enemy plane. Also real life pilots do engage their war emergency power just to chase down a lone enemy plane which was the case of Closterman's encounter with the Do-335. 

 

yes, i agree with you on that too, we have to consider several things

 

13 minutes ago, UnknownDistance@psn said:

Where is the data? Why don't you share it? Do you have it?

I will repeat, Gaijin would easily get these documents at the National Air and Space Museum.

 

I ask you, where are the fire extinguishers, self-sealing fuel tanks on the Dornier Do 335? where is the correction of the 3d models of the game?

 

[UnknownDistance@psn 2,216]

22 minutes ago, pieve said:

I'm not talking about maximum speed, but acceleration, which is not correct.

 

The acceleration on the Do-335 is most likely close to correct. Low end acceleration is primarily going to be determined by power to weight ratio while high end acceleration is going to be drag dependent.

 

War-Thunder gameplay...especially Air RB has a tendency to place an emphasis on low end acceleration due to the way that the game is set up and the way that flight models work. In War Thunder you end up spending a lot more time at lower speeds because mouse aim turns induce higher g forces than what would typically be used in real life.

 

 

[pieve 3,578]

21 hours ago, UnknownDistance@psn said:

 

The acceleration on the Do-335 is most likely close to correct. Low end acceleration is primarily going to be determined by power to weight ratio while high end acceleration is going to be drag dependent.

 

War-Thunder gameplay...especially Air RB has a tendency to place an emphasis on low end acceleration due to the way that the game is set up and the way that flight models work. In War Thunder you end up spending a lot more time at lower speeds because mouse aim turns induce higher g forces than what would typically be used in real life.

 

 

yes I understand about that. but you can give the design a little more refinement, that's all.

 

but my problem is being more in modeling the Dornier Do 335 which is wrong targeting the real life model.

 

Canopy animation is missing from each Dornier 335 model. correction of the canopy of each model of the Do 335, A-0, A-1 and B-2 is missing.

 

there is no animation of the pilot being ejected and that would be cool to see in the game.

 

the most essential thing is missing, which is the fire extinguisher mechanism in the Dornier 335 models.

 

these are the things that bother me more than the actual performance of the aircraft.

 

can you understand it now?

 

[pieve 3,578]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57JLUMavoLs

 

In the Dornier documentary that he made about the Dornier Do 335 he talks about the fire extinguisher in 15:24 seconds. And in the video you can have a good dimension of the fluidity of the aircraft maneuvering

Edited June 2, 2023 by pieve