The AIM-7 Sparrow Missile - Information & Discussion topic

[k_stepanovich 326]

On 03/06/2020 at 02:33, Iron_physik said:

Performance AIM-7E

      ...

• Maneuvering capability: 25g

 

Some sources claim that AIM-7E-2 modification allows the missile to be launched in "Dogfight" mode, which:

- Reduces missile minimal range (Commit. time, e.t.c.)

- Increases capability against maneuvering targets

According to the source 25G of lateral acceleration is given for AIM-7E-2.

AIM-7E may have the same control fins, the same servos, but lateral acceleration may be limited by autopilot to achieve better interception range, as

agressive maneuvering causes the missile to waste its energy. Looks like AIM-7E-2 just have an option to disable such limits.

Would be really happy to know how capable AIM-7E (not E-2) is.

[Iron_physik 3,485]

On 21/08/2020 at 17:53, k_stepanovich said:

 

Some sources claim that AIM-7E-2 modification allows the missile to be launched in "Dogfight" mode, which:

- Reduces missile minimal range (Commit. time, e.t.c.)

- Increases capability against maneuvering targets

According to the source 25G of lateral acceleration is given for AIM-7E-2.

AIM-7E may have the same control fins, the same servos, but lateral acceleration may be limited by autopilot to achieve better interception range, as

agressive maneuvering causes the missile to waste its energy. Looks like AIM-7E-2 just have an option to disable such limits.

Would be really happy to know how capable AIM-7E (not E-2) is.

 

I can try to find something.

give me some time to shift through my sources^^

 

 

[Iron_physik 3,485]

@k_stepanovich

found something:

 

 

Spoiler

Table C, is for both E and E-2

 

 

 

these pages talk about the only difference in the 2 missiles is the shorter min range of the AIM-7E-2

apart from that the envelopes (i.e. agility) are identical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

F-4 tactical manual (US Navy)

 

with more discribtions on the matter.

 

 

Spoiler

Dogfight computer mentioned on the first page:

 

 

 

 

 

 

as you see, the F-4 tactical manual doesnt mention a dogfight mode for the AIM-7E-2

and it also confirms a equal performance of both missiles on all ranges past 5kft.

 

the only difference is the shorter minimum range of the E-2.

[Zetaris 267]

Thrust and duration stats datamined from dev server files:

 

Spoiler

AIM-7C

      "force": 32200.0
      "timeFire": 2.04

 

AIM-7D

      "force": 13000.0
      "timeFire": 10.0

 

AIM-7E

      "force": 43300.0
      "timeFire": 2.8

 

AIM-7C looks correct, not so sure about the other two. For the AIM-7E, according to the info in this thread it should put out 7711lbf / 34,300N, but on dev it's 43,300N. Additionally, even though the AIM-7D has lower thrust, its 10.0 second duration seems to give it much higher range over the AIM-7E. The AIM-7D also only has a maxDistance of 26000.0 (basically, how far the missile can travel from its point of origin), which contradicts the ~44km aerodynamic range at 40k ft.

 

As for maneuverability, all AIM-7s are limited to 15G and have a finsAoa of 0.16, which is roughly 14 degree wing deflection.

 

Obviously, this is 1st dev server and stats can change, nothing is final, etc etc, but I expect some of these errors to slip through the cracks since they appear to be quite numerous.

 

@Iron_physik Do we have any more data on AIM-7D rocket motor or AIM-7E burn time?

[Iron_physik 3,485]

6 hours ago, Zetaris said:

The AIM-7D also only has a maxDistance of 26000.0 (basically, how far the missile can travel from its point of origin) which contradicts the ~44km aerodynamic range at 40k ft.

 

when I did tests the max distance value was the max distance from plane to missile, not from point of origin to missile

I did it when the AGM12 was new and you could launch them from the ground, I could make farther shots when I was flying before the thing exploded mid air.

 

this then would also mean what 40km max range would indeed be possible when fired at mach 1+

 

 

6 hours ago, Zetaris said:

Obviously, this is 1st dev server and stats can change, nothing is final, etc etc, but I expect some of these errors to slip through the cracks since they appear to be quite numerous.

I think they likely will, considering one of the developers replied in this thread for data.

 

6 hours ago, Zetaris said:

@Iron_physik Do we have any more data on AIM-7D rocket motor or AIM-7E burn time?

 

currently no, but im looking for data

 

6 hours ago, Zetaris said:

For the AIM-7E, according to the info in this thread it should put out 7711lbf / 34,300N, but on dev it's 43,300N.

thats likely just my source being bad

 

 

[Flame2512 3,386]

6 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

when I did tests the max distance value was the max distance from plane to missile, not from point of origin to missile

 

I just did some testing it definitely seems to be distance from point where the missile was fired. I made a custom missile with a top speed of 200 m/s and a max distance of 2,000 m. When I fired it I flew alongside the missile (it was never more than bout 100 m from me) and it exploded exactly 2 km away from the point of being fired.

[Bydaniel857 321]

i wonder if devs will model the gravity fall during the launch
I mean this 

Spoiler

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Bydaniel857

[k_stepanovich 326]

On 22/08/2020 at 22:04, Iron_physik said:

as you see, the F-4 tactical manual doesnt mention a dogfight mode for the AIM-7E-2

 

Another source confirms that AIM-7E-2 has 2 modes. And mode can be switched manually only on the ground before the flight.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a486826.pdf

Your source claims both "Dogfight mode" and "Intercept mode" for short ranges for AIM-7E-2 as well.

 

 

On 22/08/2020 at 22:04, Iron_physik said:

these pages talk about the only difference in the 2 missiles is the shorter min range of the AIM-7E-2

apart from that the envelopes (i.e. agility) are identical.

Envelopes of both missiles may be the same for ACM mode, which means launch within visual range.

For long range if the missile is launched on a manevering target it is optimal to limit the missile maneuverability for first seconds of flight to allow missile to gain as much energy as possible and than disable that limitatoin. The missile itself can't measure the distance to the target, so only time-out can be used.

In dogfight (when the target is close and it is maneuvering) this limiation on the missile maneuverability would be a bad decision.

[Maverick966 1,240]

On 23/08/2020 at 08:10, Zetaris said:

Thrust and duration stats datamined from dev server files:

 

Hide contents

AIM-7C

      "force": 32200.0
      "timeFire": 2.04

 

AIM-7D

      "force": 13000.0
      "timeFire": 10.0

 

AIM-7E

      "force": 43300.0
      "timeFire": 2.8

 

AIM-7C looks correct, not so sure about the other two. For the AIM-7E, according to the info in this thread it should put out 7711lbf / 34,300N, but on dev it's 43,300N. Additionally, even though the AIM-7D has lower thrust, its 10.0 second duration seems to give it much higher range over the AIM-7E. The AIM-7D also only has a maxDistance of 26000.0 (basically, how far the missile can travel from its point of origin), which contradicts the ~44km aerodynamic range at 40k ft.

 

As for maneuverability, all AIM-7s are limited to 15G and have a finsAoa of 0.16, which is roughly 14 degree wing deflection.

 

Obviously, this is 1st dev server and stats can change, nothing is final, etc etc, but I expect some of these errors to slip through the cracks since they appear to be quite numerous.

 

@Iron_physik Do we have any more data on AIM-7D rocket motor or AIM-7E burn time?

So probably the F3H Demon will get the AIM-7C

[SirScorpion 1,091]

3 hours ago, k_stepanovich said:

 

Another source confirms that AIM-7E-2 has 2 modes. And mode can be switched manually only on the ground before the flight.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a486826.pdf

Your source claims both "Dogfight mode" and "Intercept mode" for short ranges for AIM-7E-2 as well.

 

Envelopes of both missiles may be the same for ACM mode, which means launch within visual range.

For long range if the missile is launched on a manevering target it is optimal to limit the missile maneuverability for first seconds of flight to allow missile to gain as much energy as possible and than disable that limitatoin. The missile itself can't measure the distance to the target, so only time-out can be used.

In dogfight (when the target is close and it is maneuvering) this limiation on the missile maneuverability would be a bad decision.

 

Since it was changes on the ground, I think the best way to implement in game is to have 2 missiles E and E-2 with shorter range 20-25G for the E-2 and E being the standard. 

 

Question is how can the game handle multi type missiles, will we get a "tank like" ammo selector?

[BrassWolf 1,861]

17 minutes ago, Maverick966 said:

So probably the F3H Demon will get the AIM-7C

 

At 9.3... can you imagine rivers of tears of Sabres/MiGs pilots?

Edited August 24, 2020 by BrassWolf

[Bydaniel857 321]

16 minutes ago, Maverick966 said:

So probably the F3H Demon will get the AIM-7C

hopefully, but people will start saying that it would be OP, without taking into account the ground clutter that radar haves and the low efficiency of C version wich haves less range compared to D/E. But yes i want them in the Demon

[Maverick966 1,240]

20 minutes ago, BrassWolf said:

 

At 9.3... can you imagine rivers of tears of Sabres/MiGs pilots?

They will move it to 9.7 and radar guided missiles are useless at low altitude anyway, it would be easy to counter, also the AIM-7C has 16 G load

Edited August 24, 2020 by Maverick966

[MaMoran20@psn 198]

@Zetaris

 

On 23/08/2020 at 06:27, Iron_physik said:

currently no, but im looking for data

Rocket burn time for the 7E-2 is 2.9 seconds according to the AD-A142-508 (Weapon File),   page 9 of the pdf its the info for the aim7e2. It's the same engine so it should have the same burn time.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA142508

 

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aim-7-sparrow.31904/ , also mentions a 2.9 second burn time for the AIM 7E

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by MaMoran20@psn

[Iron_physik 3,485]

3 hours ago, k_stepanovich said:

Another source confirms that AIM-7E-2 has 2 modes. And mode can be switched manually only on the ground before the flight.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a486826.pdf

Your source claims both "Dogfight mode" and "Intercept mode" for short ranges for AIM-7E-2 as well.

I may have missed it then

thanks for clearing up.

 

however the agility on both should be the same, its just seems to be a difference in the guidance logic of the missiles.

 

3 hours ago, k_stepanovich said:

Envelopes of both missiles may be the same for ACM mode, which means launch within visual range.

the envelopes are for all modes

the ACM mode section is for the ACM mode of the radar

outside of that the missile is being operated normally.

 

here a full envelope with the ACM zone drawn into it.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, k_stepanovich said:

The missile itself can't measure the distance to the target, so only time-out can be used.

In dogfight (when the target is close and it is maneuvering) this limiation on the missile maneuverability would be a bad decision.

 

but it would be realistic wouldnt it?

this would make AIM-7s long range weapons, and for short range you have AIM-9 sidewinders, or the AIM-7E2 in dogfight mode that has this limit deactivated.

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, MaMoran20@psn said:

Rocket burn time for the 7E-2 is 2.9 seconds according to the AD-A142-508 (Weapon File),   page 9 of the pdf its the info for the aim7e2. It's the same engine so it should have the same burn time.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA142508

 

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aim-7-sparrow.31904/ , also mentions a 2.9 second burn time for the AIM 7E

 

 

 

good find

I updated my post.

 

[Bydaniel857 321]

@Iron_physik F4s cant launch sparrows on inverted fight?

[Iron_physik 3,485]

57 minutes ago, Bydaniel857 said:

@Iron_physik F4s cant launch sparrows on inverted fight?

you need at least 0.5 positive g to launch one

[Daffan 6,158]

People are talking about radar in here and T2, does that mean the Lock-on with T2 for the gun will actually work now instead of 1/100 times?

 

 

[Flame2512 3,386]

breakLockMaxTime means that if the missile breaks lock for more than 5 seconds (was 3) it will explode

lockAngleMax is the size of the outer locking ring (how far off missile boresight it can lock on to a target before launch

[oppsijustkilledu@psn 2,314]

15 hours ago, Celestia said:

 

No, the AIM-7E should not gain any benefit as the seeker head cannot acquire an illuminated target among the ground clutter. It might benefit from a stronger radar signal strength and gain a target lock sooner/longer range but without the improved sensors and guidance it would be no better of a missile than on the F4C with it's native radar.

 

The AIM-7F was the first to take advantage of the pulse dopplar radar, and while the AIM-7E can be used with the newer radars it's not compatible with the ground filtering mechanics. Remember, It's not the emmited signal that is key here, it is how the return signal is processed.

Those benefits you mention that's what I mean signal strength and such

[Bydaniel857 321]

On 26/08/2020 at 06:10, Zetaris said:

I haven't seen any indication for airborne pulse-doppler radar mechanics

because there is no radar mechanics, only on ground radars like chunguska or bradats

[Bydaniel857 321]

Spoiler

[The_Monolith 860]

6 hours ago, Bydaniel857 said:

Reveal hidden contents

Where'd you find that? And is it new?

[Bydaniel857 321]

found it on a ditamine

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Bydaniel857

[The_Monolith 860]

12 hours ago, Bydaniel857 said:

Reveal hidden contents

So it looks like they have modeled range and speed gates. They just made them larger as well

Spoiler

		"bistaticRadarRangeGateBeamToAreaMult": [4.0,4.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateBeamToAreaMult": [6.0,6.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateAreaMin": [0.0,0.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateAreaMax": [45.0,45.0],
		"bistaticRadarSpeedGateBeamToAreaMult": [4.0,4.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateAreaMax": [60.0,60.0],
		"bistaticRadarSpeedGateBeamToAreaMult": [6.0,6.0],
		"bistaticRadarSpeedGateAreaMin": [0.0,0.0],
		"bistaticRadarSpeedGateAreaMax": [45.0,45.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateBeamToSectorMult": [2.0,0.25],
		"bistaticRadarSpeedGateAreaMax": [60.0,60.0],
		"bistaticRadarRangeGateBeamToSectorMult": [1.0,0.2],

I don't really know how these gates work but I would assume that widening the gates would produce more clutter. Don't take my word for it though, I'm just guessing based on what looks to be general nerfs to radar in 1.101.38 with sideLobesAttenuation being changed.

 

Maybe @Iron_physik may be able to elaborate on what these gates are?