How to survive the first minute in AB aerial warefare ?

[hemmerling 433]

Hello,

I play Aerial Warefare,

currently mostly on BR-Reserve - BR1.3 level, with German airplanes ( = fighters/attackers )

1. HE112

2. CR42 Falco

3. HS123 A1

4. HE51 C-1

5. HE51 B-1

 

So I don´t fly the typical "slaughter pigs", i.e. bombers, e.g.

Do17

Ju87

Blendheim MkIV

 

***************

How to survive the first minute in AB aerial warefare ?

***************

I am usually shot down within the first minute, mostly by

Zhukovsky's I-153-M62

http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Zhukovsky's_I-153-M62

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-153

, no matter what I do, neither bombing ground targets, nor attacking ground targets with cannon/machine gun, nor trying to shoot other planes down.

Its typical that the first set of enemies has no bombers...

Additionally, with the first airplane, I usually don´t make much points... even if it is easy e.g. to shoot down patrol boats at the aerial battlefield "Saipan"...

 

With my next spawn, I am usually able to shoot down enemies, i.e. to get behind a bomber or attacker and shoot them down. So I live longer than with first airplane, and I make SL points.

 

So the problem is, that in the first-minute-fight,

its somehow quiet easy to get behind me, which is usually a perfect chance to get me down.

But after that the chances to get me down drop.

 

MIght it be that the strategy of many ( low-Tier! ) players is, to first use a figher airplane to bring other airplanes down, and then move to attackers and bombers, to fulfill the mission objectives ( to destroy ground forces ) ?

Remember we talk about airbattles with an estimated high percentage of rookies/newbies, who should not have a perfect strategy...

Or am I always killed by a little group of exerienced players, using the I-153-M62 as they know its best for killing in this BR range :-(?!

 

 

 

So... how to avoid especially in the first minute of AB aerial warefare, that red planes get behind you ?

One idea would be... to stay off the aerial combat area for the first minute ( count it on your own clock outside the game, i.e. smartphone/watch/other computer ).... :-)

 

Sincerely

Rolf

Edited October 31, 2016 by hemmerling

[Kheron 18]

4 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

So... how to avoid especially in the first minute of AB aerial warefare, that red planes get behind you ?

One idea would be... to stay off the aerial combat area for the first minute ( count it on your own clock outside the game, i.e. smartphone/watch/other computer ).... :-)

Basically you have the right answer yourself. Don't fly straight in and join the first skirmishes. If you do, you loose the ability to choose your own battles, and some one will choose them for you and shoot you down. Fly up and to the side - perhaps do an upwards circle or to in your own territory before you consider joining the battle and when you do be careful not to be in the center of things and don't fly on your own or with few friends towards enemy spawn point. 

So be patient, get some altitude, attack from above and be careful when you engage an enemy because other enemy planes might be lurking about and shoot you down while you are focused on the plane in front of you. 

I fly planes with a higher BR, but in most of my battles I only consider joining the fight after reaching 5km. It is pointless at your level, but it is a point about not flying straight towards the enemy. Wait and be paitent.

[Light_Flight 269]

Hemmerling, I think we were both engaged just now in a battle over Spain. From what I could see, you flew down into battle in all your planes including, at first, a Ki102. You took down a couple on my side, which is good, but it cost you. Meanwhile, high above, 3 heavy bombers (including mine) were doing pretty much what they liked. Now one thing I don't like is a Ki102 with its dirty great cannon coming towards my Halifax! So had you climbed at the start, you may not have stopped me taking out a base, but you would have seriously disrupted and probably stopped my bombing thereafter. Just a thought.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Light_Flight

[Cpt_Sum_TingWong 294]

Kheron had it right.  Side climb, circle around in your territory, etc.  Once the initial merge is over, you can decide if you want to engage an enemy at ALT or dive down if the match up/odds aren't in your favor.  

[Sokaku 43]

#1. Climb off to the side a little. I typically climb at about 25-45% to the left or right of the direction of the enemy. Altitude + Speed is king. If I'm in a stock plane I climb defensively and wait for targets to come over to my side of the map.

#2. Choose your targets. Pick "stragglers" that are at least 3 km from buddies.

#3. Look around. Always look around. Who's closing on you, who's moving away?

#4. If an enemy is above you, move away and keep an eye on them. Ideally try and wait until they dive of after someone else.

#5. Ultimately don't put yourself in a situation where you are at the disadvantage. Be patient and look for opportunities to attack without putting yourself in harm's way.

#6. Look around. Don't forget.

#7. Learn the capabilities of your opponent. Try to play to your plane's strengths, not theirs.

#8. Stick near your team. If you get into trouble there's more chance that someone will shake the enemy off your tail or shoot them down. 

 

One detail about the I-153: *Do NOT* engage this beast in a turn fight. The best way to kill it is to blind-side it with a hit & run. If one does get behind you, bee-line to friendlies as fast as you can with just enough maneuvering to throw off his aim. The 153 isn't particularly fast. As long as you can extend or keep your distance, you can often hold on long enough to get someone to shoot him down or at least force him to break off. Sometimes they tire of the chase and break off after someone else. This is the perfect opportunity to turn the tables as they may be expecting you to keep running. It can be a gratifying kill and surely one to get their blood boiling.

[hemmerling 433]

5 hours ago, Sokaku said:

#3. Look around. Always look around. Who's closing on you, who's moving away?

Thanks for all the tips.

#3 is my problem

a) I use external view (F3), for bombing F4 or if available F7

With Ground Warefare, there is no other option than external view ( so WT doesn´t simulate the different views of commander-in-turret and driver ).

With Aerial Warefare, I know that I am cheating, as in a real airplane - must not be miliary - I just have the cockpit view.

I am so far unable to fly with cockpit view. Indeed maybe I am not suitable to learn airlplane flying at all...

I know that I may "test drive" any airplane or "create custom missions" to become familiar with flying by cockpit view, without any disturbance by other players...

 

But no matter what view, there is no "look around" option. With 2-seat airplanes, I might switch to the gunner's view ( F6 ), but this doesn´t help me for single-seat fighters and attackers. I know with "V" I might switch quite easily between F3 and F6 view...

 

So how do you "look around" with single fighters?

If I am hit by gun, I must always try to draw a circle with minimum radius, to see if I have a red enemy behind me, or if it was just by chance that I was hit "while driving by"...

 

Ahhhhhh... I see my real problem, I use the "Mouse aim" mode :-(.?!

On the ground, at a "test drive", I am able to look to the side, both in cockpit view and outside view, but NOT in the air.....

But with "simple control" it's the same...

So "problem not solved" to look around, especially as in reality, single seat fighters often have no chance to look to their back.....

 

b)

I am still unable to win dogfights, when somebody is in my neck,

 

while I am often able in the second phase of an airbattle, even with the 60-second airraid events of Ground Warfare, to get behind an airplane ( bombers, attackers, ... even fighters ) and to shoot them down. Usually they don´t have a chance to escape, I may be even behind them wile waiting for one or more AB on-board ammunition updates.

But almost nobody who I get into his/her neck, tries to do dogfight....

 

On BR1.3 level, I am ususally shot down by

http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Zhukovsky's_I-153-M62

 

while on the BR3.3 level of my major Japanese airforce, I currently don´t make any progress at all, with making points by shooting down fighters or by destroying ground targets...

 

I consider this as serious crisis :-).

I have little problems with Ground Warefare ( besides that I must sharpen my skills, to be able to knock-out 10 enemy crews/game ).

 

c)

For airplanes, which control modus do you suggest my plane?

1. Mouse aim

2. Simplified controls

So far I used Mouse  ( as with Ground Warefare too ), now I tested SimplifiedControls and it doesn´t feel bad...

 

Sincerely

Rolf

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by hemmerling

[kireta21 795]

By default looking around is C. Also take look on minimap every time you start hearing engine, to confirm it's not hostile closing in.

If you realise enemy outmanouvers you, just get the hell out, preferably in direction of nearest swarm of friendlies. Gain altitude, speed, reload and return to battle.

Avoid duels when you can, especially with more hostiles nearby. Planes busy turnfighting are easy picking for zoomers.

[hemmerling 433]

 

1 hour ago, kireta21 said:

By default looking around is C.

 

Thanks alot, I didn´t learn that for more than 6 month :-(,

indeed the online help states, both for ground vehicles and airplanes

 

German keyboard:

Mouse look activation: C, Komma ( ZEHNERTASTATUR )

Translation:

Mouse look activation: C, Comma ( numeric keyboard )

 

so by what should I have learned that ?!

Indeed,

the round view is less important for ground vehicles with and without turrets ( due to the delay if you move your sight by turning the turret - the turret follows so slowly that you can easily see everything around you, and if there is no turret the round view is possible by mouse too, so no need for C or KOMMA ), but of course totally important for airplanes.

 

Indeed, with the minimap, though I have an 18" notebook display, I can´t realize if somebody ( a red dot ) is behind me, as the mid of the minimap is not marked properly...

 

Sincerelly

Rolf

Edited October 31, 2016 by hemmerling

[Sokaku 43]

I put mouse-look on the Right Mouse Button, it's that important IMO. I use mouse-aim, though I use keyboard controls a LOT while flying, especially roll to orientate my plane relative to my target's expected direction. When I'm tracking a plane on my tail I am flying purely by keyboard with pitch & yaw to throw their aim off, but also to tell if they are closing or if I'm pulling away. I can see the moment they break off or start taking fire from someone else, which is usually the perfect time to swing around and engage.

 

I consider the Japanese planes at 3~4 BR to be the hardest to play. They are maneuverable, but generally quite slow. The Ki-100 is the exception. 

 

Dog-fighting takes different forms. Some planes like the 153 excel at 1-on-1 fights, while others excel in 2-3 plane formations / fur-ball fighting. Somle planes are not suited to dog-fighting at all, their purpose is to strike unsuspecting planes typically from above and break away too fast for anything to catch, climb up, and do it again. (Boom & Zoom)

 

When engaging a 153, never attempt to take him on 1-on-1, especially with Japanese planes, unless you are in a fast plane and are above him and moving fast already. The biggest disadvantage you have is durability. Any japan plane that gets set on fire is a death sentence. If you're in a plane that cannot easily outrun a 153, don't approach it unless there is at least one other plane engaging it. To kill one, you need to use sweeping passes and looking for openings where you might catch  one flat-footed. Often 153s will toss around like a fish flopping which makes them quite hard to hit. Don't chase or turn after one doing this, break off, and set up for another pass. While the flopping around makes them hard to hit, it kills their airspeed which means it's hard for them to chase you. When approaching one that is engaging another plane, take your time to line up your shot and make it count because you have the chance of catching them unawares, but as soon as they start taking fire or seeing tracers they will likely start flopping around again. Make sure you hit and get a good stream into them.The key is to keep your speed up. In a head-on a 153 can cut a 180 faster than just about any plane I've seen. If you approach one that is targeting you, be damn sure you have a good amount of speed to pull away if you don't kill it. Don't turn back for it, because it's probably already on your tail. If he's following, just drag him towards friendly planes. If you have to turn towards friendlies, do it in a wide arc to keep your speed up. 

 

Another important tip around looking around is not to get fixated on one target. check on the radar, listen for engine noise. Avoid "chasing" planes. If you miss a burst and they break away, don't immediately turn with them, take a different vector such as climbing above and back around, or diving under them. Following a target is a sure way to get shot down by someone, either an enemy or sometimes a teammate behind you.   Often an unexpected maneuver can earn you a much better firing arc, and helps keep you from becoming a setup target for someone else. 

[sidchicken 721]

18 hours ago, hemmerling said:

With Ground Warefare, there is no other option than external view ( so WT doesn´t simulate the different views of commander-in-turret and driver ).

This is quite false.  In addition to the default 3rd person view, ground forces offers the "sniper" view (gunner), the binoculars view (commander) and there may be a driver view as well?  I'm not sure, because I rarely tank.

[hemmerling 433]

On 31/10/2016 at 11:49 AM, Light_Flight said:

Hemmerling, I think we were both engaged just now in a battle over Spain. From what I could see, you flew down into battle in all your planes including, at first, a Ki102. You took down a couple on my side, which is good, but it cost you. Meanwhile, high above, 3 heavy bombers (including mine) were doing pretty much what they liked. Now one thing I don't like is a Ki102 with its dirty great cannon coming towards my Halifax! So had you climbed at the start, you may not have stopped me taking out a base, but you would have seriously disrupted and probably stopped my bombing thereafter. Just a thought.

Thanks for pointing me to the TRUE role of Japanese heavy fighters,

J1N1

KI-45

KI-102

I successfully played it :-): Be the protector of the bases :-).

So I climed up to 4000m and then waited at the bases for bombers... and really they came, and I was able to shot one down. As I play AB, I see the type of airplane in a wide distance, so I may distinguish between bombers (He111, Do17, PBY,..) and small-bombers ( Ju87 ) and fighers.

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by hemmerling

[Badboyz31 11]

On 10/31/2016 at 6:17 PM, hemmerling said:

Hello,

I play Aerial Warefare,

currently mostly on BR-Reserve - BR1.3 level, with German airplanes ( = fighters/attackers )

1. HE112

2. CR42 Falco

3. HS123 A1

4. HE51 C-1

5. HE51 B-1

 

So I don´t fly the typical "slaughter pigs", i.e. bombers, e.g.

Do17

Ju87

Blendheim MkIV

 

***************

How to survive the first minute in AB aerial warefare ?

***************

I am usually shot down within the first minute, mostly by

Zhukovsky's I-153-M62

http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Zhukovsky's_I-153-M62

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-153

, no matter what I do, neither bombing ground targets, nor attacking ground targets with cannon/machine gun, nor trying to shoot other planes down.

Its typical that the first set of enemies has no bombers...

Additionally, with the first airplane, I usually don´t make much points... even if it is easy e.g. to shoot down patrol boats at the aerial battlefield "Saipan"...

 

With my next spawn, I am usually able to shoot down enemies, i.e. to get behind a bomber or attacker and shoot them down. So I live longer than with first airplane, and I make SL points.

 

So the problem is, that in the first-minute-fight,

its somehow quiet easy to get behind me, which is usually a perfect chance to get me down.

But after that the chances to get me down drop.

 

MIght it be that the strategy of many ( low-Tier! ) players is, to first use a figher airplane to bring other airplanes down, and then move to attackers and bombers, to fulfill the mission objectives ( to destroy ground forces ) ?

Remember we talk about airbattles with an estimated high percentage of rookies/newbies, who should not have a perfect strategy...

Or am I always killed by a little group of exerienced players, using the I-153-M62 as they know its best for killing in this BR range :-(?!

 

 

 

So... how to avoid especially in the first minute of AB aerial warefare, that red planes get behind you ?

One idea would be... to stay off the aerial combat area for the first minute ( count it on your own clock outside the game, i.e. smartphone/watch/other computer ).... :-)

 

Sincerely

Rolf

 

What I would do usually is to join the skirmish later than other player. So whenever I spawn in an fighter, I would do a 1/2 loop so that I will gain altitude while turning my direction away from the battlefield. Then like you said, the "slaughter pigs" are relatively easy target. Should you find a lone bomber at high altitude, you should kill them (and possibly leaving them enraged). Then once you have enough altitude, choose a target (best would a lone enemy fighter chasing after your teammate) plan your dive and commit to a BnZ (boom and zoom) maneuver. If you missed it's fine, but remember to pull up again until you have traded your speed for altitude, just before you stall.

 

If you fly low, you will be the prey for most BnZ pilots, so definitely avoid that as much as possible.

 

[hemmerling 433]

I was just suggested to watch the video :-)

 

War Thunder - Beginners Guide Part 4, Defensive Maneuvers

 

 

[Saint_StuG 1,282]

do a 180 degree turn, and climb.

[SOL_1 1,013]

General advice:

Remember these commandments: Speed is life, altitude is insurance.

 

If you are fast, enemies have it harder to hit you, or even come close to you at all. Always value having high speed, and try to give up only as much as necessary, if you have to in a dogfight.

 

But specifically for Warthunder, open up controls from the menu and the first page will already be the basic tab in the mouse aim subtab, there place your rudder and elevator controls (or as it's called in the menu, pitch and yaw) on useable keys, it is so important. If you look around with C, you can still steer your plane using these keys alone, and you will be able to maneuver through complex dogfight situations and still keep an eye on your enemies. You also really want to change the mouse wheel to "zoom axis", enabling you to zoom in and out, it is just so incredibly useful period. Then you should put your "Throttle Axis" on useable keys, I put mine on W and S, and also put the reset value on 5 for an emergency handbrake. I strongly recommend that you also go under the View controls tab and set the "Zoom Camera" and the "Tracking Camera: Enemy" to your right mouse button, it will give you an auto tracking feature that will also conviently zoom into the target, reliefing you of incredible stress to manually track targets down with C and is also tenfold faster. If you do that, you will have about quadruple the amount of control over your plane and awareness of your surroundings.

[PARAMI 478]

The video that hemmerling posted is by long5hot. I consider his videos the best way for a new pilot to learn basic/intermediate air-to-air fighter combat. Watch his videos (especially his beginners' guides), and enjoy the hate mail that comes in when you start flying intelligently and efficiently ("stop hacking! reported!")

[hemmerling 433]

I just found another comparison, why surviving in the first minutes of aerial warefare is difficult,

with the WT battle scenarios.

 

Mostly the objectives are to destroy all ground vehicles,

and to create a "realistic" situation, the WT battlegrounds of aerial warefare are a frontline of red and blue ground itms ( vehicles, pillow boxes, artillery, aa ).

 

Well if most airplane players fly to this limited area of ground forces battlefront, at start of aerial battle,

they act - thats my comparison - similar to players of Rugby and American Football :-) at restart of a sports battle every few minutes.

One term which was used for software developement in the last 10 years, is coming from Rugby ( a popular sports in my hometown Hannover due to our "english" cultural roots of a common king of Hannover and England in 18th/19th century  ):

 

Scrum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(rugby)

see this photo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ST_vs_Gloucester_-_Match_-_23.JPG

 

... its obvious if you are in such a battle area, that you get hit... ( similar the Rugby players get "body contact" to their opponents, at a Scrum )

Edited November 7, 2016 by hemmerling

[hemmerling 433]

Does almost nobody use "game controllers", if the setup of standard keyboard is given such importance ?!

[io_i_oi 1,016]

3 hours ago, hemmerling said:

Does almost nobody use "game controllers", if the setup of standard keyboard is given such importance ?!

They are mostly useless with the invention of "gaming" mice and macro keyboards. The only games I use a controller for are like GTA for driving but I go back to the mouse for shooting.

[hemmerling 433]

2 hours ago, io_i_oi said:

They are mostly useless with the invention of "gaming" mice and macro keyboards.

To be honest,

I dont know either.

Any typical product suggestions ?!

Macro-Keyboards sound Pre-IBMPC ( Pre-1985 ) :-)

[ArthurBloss 633]

Hallo Rolf,

 

if you already own a bit higher rated aircraft, switch to them. BR 1.3 is totally unbalanced. You will constantly face some guys in Yak-1's etc, which are pretty much untouchable with biplanes.

If you want to stick to fighters and attackers, maybe Russians or Americans are a better choice for you. Those nations offer way more variation in fighter designs. Germany has only Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf (+a few Heinkel fighers) and many more or less useless heavy fighters.

 

Americans have: Hawks/Mustangs, Grumman Cats, Corsairs, Thunderbolts, Lightnings and excellent attackers/medium bombers.

Russians have: Yaks, MiG/Polikarpov, LaGG/Lavochkin and capable attackers. And in many cases: several subvariants at the same BR to fill all your crew slots.

 

If you stick to Germany, climb a bit and then keep your speed up. Thats especially true in all 109's/190D's and to a lesser extend in 190A models. Use your rollrate, both in defense and offense. And if you fly fighers, don't engage ground targets (unless absolutely necessary). Attack from above or from below, not head on or directly trailing the target.

 

If you are diving onto a target, make sure you are diving towards your own spawn, and not into the red one. This way your retreat is hopefully covered by your own team.  If some not so clever guys from the red team follow you they will be easy kills for your teammates.

 

 

 

 

 

[hemmerling 433]

The only reason why Japan is my aerial nation is, that there is no ground forces so far ( I started in April 2016 ), I am on BR 3.3.

I am NOT very satisfied with WT Aerial Warefare.

I just played on BR-Reserver -BR1.3 level with German airforce, as I must push the repair times down ( rank + repairtime of aerial warefare is valid for ground warefare ). During that period, I almost explored Tier I+II of German airplanes, totally, but I didn´t buy anything, as I am not a good pilot so I would fail to make points on hier BR/Tier levels...

As I have just 5 crews and 8 presets, I don´t have "space" for a German airforce... all is occupied with German light+medium tanks, up to BR4.7. So i will also never drive heavy tanks ( Tier IV, V )

Edited November 7, 2016 by hemmerling

[ArthurBloss 633]

23 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

The only reason why Japan is my aerial nation is, that there is no ground forces so far ( I started in April 2016 ), I am on BR 3.3.

I am NOT very satisfied with WT Aerial Warefare.

I just played on BR1.0-2.0 level with German airforce, as I must push the repair times down ( rank + repairtime of aerial warefare is valid for ground warefare )

 

Not exactly my favourite nation. Ricepaper kites drenched in avgas. Weak armament on top of that.

 

If grinding XP is your motivation you should definately play in higher battleratings, since biplanes yield next to no XP. Germany starts to shine with the Emils (109 E3 and E4) and the Bf 110C. With them you get cannons, decent to godlike performance and lots of undertiered Soviet/American T3 targets for more XP. More dakka- more kills and the performance to disengage after you made your kill.

[hemmerling 433]

6 minutes ago, ArthurBloss said:

If grinding XP is your motivation you should definately play in higher battleratings, since biplanes yield next to no XP. Germany starts to shine with the Emils (109 E3 and E4) and the Bf 110C. With them you get cannons, decent to godlike performance and lots of undertiered Soviet/American T3 targets for more XP. More dakka- more kills and the performance to disengage after you made your kill.

I have Emils as enemies on the air battlefield...

if I play low BR games, I have many unexperienced enemies which are easy to shoot down.

 

I already have reached my goals to decrease the repair times ( of my German tanks ) :-), so even with biplanes you may gain enough XPs :-)

 

"Not exactly my favourite nation. Ricepaper kites drenched in avgas. Weak armament on top of that."

Well with any other nation, if I invest time in airflights, I fill the presets with airplanes, and then have no presets left for ground vehicles.

I am focussing on Ground Warefare.

That makes real fun.

I am not very shure about fan with Aerial Warefare ( no matter of WT or WOT )....

[ArthurBloss 633]

Hah, for me it's the other way around. I tried tanks, but then you have always random aircraft in the game as well, which was annoying as hell. And the RNGsus. Nah, I'll rather stick to aircraft. No bouncing off or crews knocked unconcious from bloody HMG fire. Add those idiotic AAA vehicles which are often better at killing tanks than battletanks themselves.