Is there any historical source for "sidescraping" in tank battles ?

[hemmerling 433]

Hello,

every "expert" wants to tell the newbies about "sidescraping" as method to encounter an enemy, in Ground warefare ( not just for WT, but also for competitors like WOT, AW,... )

 

https://www.google.de/search?q=Sidescraping+++tank

 

Is there any historical source for "sidescraping" that it was used in real tank battles or at least in tank driver education ?

So (online) videos or documents of WWII or even later ?!

 

Ok, it is a method mostly for boxed tanks without sloped armour

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloped_armour

i.e. German Panzer I,II, III, IV, VI,

are there many post-WWII tanks which were effectively built also without sloped armour ?!

And is there a list of WT tanks which should use this "sidescraping" method ( so which tanks besides the listed German tanks have same problem ? ).

 

Ok,

Russian tank T34

and

German Panzer V Panther

have sloped armour, and so probably little need to use "sidescraping", right ?!

 

PS: There is no Panzer I in WT :-).

 

Sincerely

Rolf

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by hemmerling

[_Sev_ 1,115]

http://imgur.com/J4d0y

 

There is also a picture of Waffen SS Pz IVs in front of Charkov in early 43 who also stand on a road in "Mahlzeitstellung" -> sidescraped in combat but cant find it atm.

 

Yes,l tanks with sloped armor dont have to but can to a lesser degree sidescrape to increase the angel for the enemy round -> more bounces

 

 

[Ulatersk 8,959]

Might be this one?

 

[builder396 252]

Angled armor doesnt influence ability to sidescrape. It merely makes it slightly more difficult to figure out the exact point from where you can expose your tank as a Panthers or T-34s side has a more complicated shape than the side of a Pz IV or Cromwell. 
However tanks with better side armor obviously profit more from sidescraping, and the same applies to the odd tank with a rear turret (currently we only have the Maus), though theoretically you can just reverse your tank. 

 

Personally I dont really sidescrape in WT, the best I do is, if I have a corner to my left, I rotate my tank to the right and try to only expose the frontal armor, but will also expose pat of the side armor to fire if need be. But sidescraping in that sense I rarely do because most tanks have an awful reverse speed meaning that any attempt to get into cover would require too much time. I prefer hull down positions or flanking maneuvers. 

[hemmerling 433]

11 hours ago, Ulatersk said:

Might be this one?

 

Not really, especially the angle is in wrong direction.

See at first image "falsch" :-(

http://www.german-bulls.de/panzerkunde-und-premiumtanks/sidescraping

and the tank just wants to shoot around the corner...

 

And it is a snapshot.

Not a military strategy told at Tank-schools...

 

So remember the driver and the gunner and commander are 3 different persons in a real tank.

Especially with young untrained teams, they are not able to coordinate their work is this special way.

 

The real question is: In real unknown territory, in non AB-mode where you can "see" your enemies easily, if you are under the pressure of true war,

how can you deal with "putting your tank in the right angle before shooting" ?!

 

I never head about this while the whole 1990th when there were single-user combat games for PCs and playstations...

I assume that some snooker players

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snooker

or gamer's friends of snooker players brought the idea to tank games, when the simulations got stronger, in the early/mid 2000th..

So as Internet use lasts now since 20 years, there must be a FIRST posting suggesting of "sidescraping" and a first tank simulation game where it made sense to use the method.

 

So "sidescraping"  is useful for

WT ( since 2014-05 )

WOT ( since 2010-06 according to Wikipedia )

 

, but is it also useful for

Battlefield ( since 2002 ) ?

and especially useful for the free "BF2 Battlelog - Battlefield2 Revive Project" & "Forgotten Hope" online games ?

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by hemmerling

[arczer25 5,202]

Just now, hemmerling said:

Not really, the angle is in wrong direction.

See at first image "falsch" :-(

http://www.german-bulls.de/panzerkunde-und-premiumtanks/sidescraping

 

And it is a snapshot.

Not a military strategy told at Tank-schools...

 

So remember the driver and the gunner and commander are 3 different persons in a real tank.

Especially with young untrained teams, they are not able to coordinate their work is this special way.

 

The real question is: In real unknown territory, in non AB-mode where you can "see" your enemies easily, if you are under the pressure of true war,

how can you deal with "putting your tank in the right angle before shooting" ?!

 

I never head about this while the whole 1990th when there were single-user combat games for PCs and playstations...

 

 

yep, try to do that in any tank game were is simulated tank crew as commander, it's bit hard.

[bellezza03 6,006]

Well sidescraping is particular and anyway buildings can be pierced too, a 122 mm will easily go trough a wall and kill your tank.... real Life is different.but  tanks used to angle the armor, especially tigers that could enjoy a thick side armor. Otto Carius said that angling in tigers was a common tactic against AT guns emplacements. 

[hemmerling 433]

22 minutes ago, bellezza03 said:

 Otto Carius said that angling in tigers was a common tactic against AT guns emplacements. 

Any online interview resource for that?

 

And this doesn´t answer the question, if it was tought at the tank schools of Germany and of the Allied forces,

and if it was developted tactics by Tiger1 crews, well... it was not a tactics of Panzer I,II,III, IV crews... ?!

and when it was first suggested by Internet for a certain tank game...

12 hours ago, _Sev_ said:

There is also a picture of Waffen SS Pz IVs in front of Charkov in early 43 who also stand on a road in "Mahlzeitstellung" -> sidescraped in combat

Interesting term :-), thanks for mentioning it

https://www.google.de/search?q="Mahlzeitstellung"

Edited November 2, 2016 by hemmerling

[hemmerling 433]

19 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

yep, try to do that in any tank game were is simulated tank crew as commander, it's bit hard.

And which were the first tank games, where it was like today with WT and WOT, that " sidescraping" is useful.. ?

And which were the "last" famous tank games, where it was not yet useful ?!

[RohmMohc 11,494]

3 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

Any online interview resource for that?

 

And this doesn´t answer the question, if it was tought at the tank schools of Germany and of the Allied forces,

and when it was first suggested by Internet for a certain tank game...

Interesting term :-), thanks for mentioning it

https://www.google.de/search?q="Mahlzeitstellung"

considering that the Tiger Fibel explains (and stresses) the use of Mahlzeit for the Tiger crews, it doest seem unlikely that they (nearly) always angled the tank... be it VS other tanks... or AT-Emplacements

Spoiler

 

 

 

[arczer25 5,202]

1 minute ago, hemmerling said:

And which were the first tank games, where it was like today with WT and WOT, that " sidescraping" is useful.. ?

And which were the "last" famous tank games, where it was not yet useful ?!

1 was WoT as it introduced armor profile system

2 probably this thing called "tank simulator" (with word simulator in "")

as there is no armor or even module system.

[hemmerling 433]

Thanks alot for all the infos,

the TIger-Fibel was "convincing" that it was probably first-time introduced in mid-WWII,  but no proof that it was trained since 1935 for Panzer I, II, III, IV , nor that the Allied tank crews were trained to do so.

 

Anyhow..  I am native German speaking, the instructions of Tiger-Fibel are very complex, and require a trained crew, AND that the team is not under pressure ( i.e. the enemy is coming unexpected, like in 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_quarters_combat

)

[RohmMohc 11,494]

2 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

Thanks alot for all the infos,

the TIger-Fibel was "convincing" that it was probably first-time introduced in mid-WWII,  but no proof that it was trained since 1935 for Panzer I, II, III, IV , nor that the Allied tank crews were trained to do so.

 

Anyhow..  I am native German speaking, the instructions of Tiger-Fibel are very complex, and require a trained crew, AND that the team is not under pressure ( i.e. the enemy is coming unexpected, like in 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_quarters_combat

)

nun, mein Lieber... the Panzers I to IV afaik never utilized angling (atleast not to the amount as we have it now in games) because their side armour was just to thin... if they would angle, atleast in the Mahlzeit-System, they would expose their side armour... The Tiger with it's 80mm side armour could angle without much risk

Edited November 2, 2016 by RohmMohc

[bellezza03 6,006]

1 hour ago, hemmerling said:

Any online interview resource for that?

 

And this doesn´t answer the question, if it was tought at the tank schools of Germany and of the Allied forces,

and if it was developted tactics by Tiger1 crews, well... it was not a tactics of Panzer I,II,III, IV crews... ?!

and when it was first suggested by Internet for a certain tank game...

Interesting term :-), thanks for mentioning it

https://www.google.de/search?q="Mahlzeitstellung"

Read his book tigers in the mud and find out. this quote was from there. panzer III/IV and even the panther had thin side armor. panzer 4 have 30 mm on the sides and 80 on the front, panther has 170 on the front effective,  and 60 effective on sides. it s dangerous angling sides. Tigers instead have 107 mm effective on the front and 82 on the side. so you can angle up to 40° and you improve your armor

[hemmerling 433]

5 minutes ago, bellezza03 said:

 panzer III/IV and even the panther had thin side armor. panzer 4 have 30 mm on the sides and 80 on the front, panther has 170 on the front effective,  and 60 effective on sides. it s dangerous angling sides.

There are many ( German ) "WT experts" who suggest angling especially for German low-tier tanks :-(..... not just for TigerH1 and further..

[bellezza03 6,006]

17 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

There are many ( German ) "WT experts" who suggest angling especially for German low-tier tanks :-(..... not just for TigerH1 and further..

Well you can angle any tank, but much less than a tiger.  around 20° max.

[hemmerling 433]

2 minutes ago, bellezza03 said:

Well you can angle any tank, but much less than a tiger.  around 20° max.

If I am in combat, I have different things to do than to do angeling...

[bellezza03 6,006]

2 minutes ago, hemmerling said:

If I am in combat, I have different things to do than to do angeling...

Remember,  always angle your armor even a little bit helps..  especially in tiger h1. 

[hemmerling 433]

I just play AR, I am unable to play RB successfully.

As I am still not on level of the advanced gamers who usually play on the TigerH1 level and above,

so even on low BR levels, I am usually not able to defeat 5-10 players, but usually just 1 defeat and maybe 2-3 helping roles to defeat players,...

 

and as I don´t have any further presets - all 8 presets are used -,

 

I decided to play the German ground forces nation until BR 4.7 ( and maybe later other nations too ), so below TigerH1 level :-),

 

with the single exception of SPAA ( where I own Ostwind BR 7.0 ).

 

*************************

So shall I really try to learn the "sidescraping" ?

There might be other methods and techniques I should learn.... e.g. repeated fire & drive-backward-to-cover... or the coordination  of and switch-between glasses & outside view for certain combat situation

*************************

 

Currently I concentrate to get "Winter Camourflage" for all my ground vehicles... i.e. to force my skills to defeat other players on BR2.7-4.7 level.... so I try to get "work practice" in tank driving & defeating....

 

Thanks for all the infos,

now with this new informations, I think that "sidescrapping" is just a hype... besides for TigerH1 crews :-)

 

Btw, I love my German tanks

Panzer III M

Panzer IV H

Panzer IV J

with "spaced armour" as this helps to survive hits :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_armour

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerschürze

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by hemmerling

[KorEEnium 2,533]

I remember reading somewhere that tanks were ordered to not drive straight towards the enemy positions but instead drive at an angle. I can't remember if it was for the US or someone else.