spaag LVT(A)-4 Alligator with 40mm BOFORS gun

[Sternjaeger84 1,075]

 

LVT(A)-4 Alligator with 40mm BOFORS gun

Draw by Hubert Cance

 

Hi! Today, a suggestion for the French tree: I'm proposing the LVT(A)-4 with a mounted 40mm gun for the French tech tree as a standard, event or premium SPAAG. Thanks to read it and, most importantly, to vote!

 

History:

The LVT is one of my favourite armored vehicle, it's one of the most used amphibious transport of the WW2. After the war, some we supplied to the French Army. They used them during the Indochina War and in the Suez Crisis, as they were very efficient as amphibious vehicle. The transformation was carried out on the directives of the captain of La Chapelle by the subgroup of the 1st hunters, during the Indochina War. This anti-aircraft weapon was particularly effective on the ground, thanks to its high rate of fire.

 

The LVT(A)-4 is already ingame, and the 40mm BOFORS gun too. Note the BOFORS gun used here is the L/60, which isn't the same that the one used by the AMX-13 DCA 40, which is the L/70 version.

 

Some technical data of the L/60 gun:

Spoiler

Mass: 1 981 kg

Length: 6.5 m

Barrel length: 2.2 m

Width: 1.8 m

Height: 1.9 m

Crew: 4 (depends)

Maximum firing range (AA shells): 3,800 m (before the shell self-destructs)

Maximum firing range (AT shells): 7,160 m

Rate of fire: 120 shells per minute

Elevation: −5°/+90° (55°/s)

 

Shell (complete round): 40×311mmR

Muzzle velocity: 881 m/s (2,890 ft/s)

Shell weight: 0.9 kg

 

Pictures:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Videos:

You will find below in the following videos rare footages of this vehicle in a very good quality. Thanks to @ForeverAloneRage for his search.

 

Why add the LVT(A)-4 SPAAG to the French tree:

• it's an exotic vehicle used by the French Army
• the 40mm BOFORS gun is an efficient weapon against planes and light/medium armored targets
• another SPAAG for the French tree
• another amphibious vehicle for the French tree
• it would made a nice premium/event/squadron vehicle, if not standard
• Alligator is a cool name for a vehicle

 

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/US/LVT-4_Water_Buffalo.php

https://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/engins-divers?task=view&id=102

http://dienbienphuredstarminiatures.blogspot.com/2014/06/some-armor-reinforcement-for-french_13.html

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sternjager

[ItssLuBu 1,798]

Approved and open for discussion. Please remember to add links to your sources. 

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

It be noted that it has a Bofors L/60 gun meaning it only has a fire rate of 120 rpm compared to the AMX-13 DCA 40's Bofors L/70 gun with 240 rpm. The lack of gun depression does worry me but it should offer better protection than the GMC bofors currently at 3.3. Overall a good suggestion.

[Sternjaeger84 1,075]

1 hour ago, ItssLuBu said:

Please remember to add links to your sources.

Done.

 

1 hour ago, Private_Wolk said:

It be noted that it has a Bofors L/60 gun meaning it only has a fire rate of 120 rpm compared to the AMX-13 DCA 40's Bofors L/70 gun with 240 rpm.

Added.

[Milocat 4,849]

Ooh, I like this!  +1 as a French SPAA.

[Sternjaeger84 1,075]

I would like to know who vote "No" and know why..

[eleks12 1,079]

looks like a nice event tank. +1

[Kasukaru 2,164]

I think it would make a great 3.7 or 4.0 AA tank. +1

[Valcour 1,141]

+1 regular tree.  It would help fill the gap between the CCKW and the AMX DCA-40.

 

 

[ForeverAloneRage 130]

Footage of it.  

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZSI3s2UtOo

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by ForeverAloneRage

[Sternjaeger84 1,075]

53 minutes ago, ForeverAloneRage said:

Footage of it.  

  Hide contents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZSI3s2UtOo

 

Nice catch! Added to the post.

[ForeverAloneRage 130]

1 hour ago, Sternjager said:

Nice catch! Added to the post.

Also, another picture and a better quality version of the first one

Spoiler

I cant seem to upload the other one so here is an Imgur link https://imgur.com/a/mCUqxXu

[Sternjaeger84 1,075]

20 hours ago, ForeverAloneRage said:

Also, another picture and a better quality version of the first one

Added!

[PacketlossRedux 595]

yes please, as a regular. 

i want more fun vehicles in the french ground forces. 3.0, 3.3 maybe? cause of the L/60 and LVT chasse

[didrec 100]

something like this could help with the french SPAA ligne at around 3.3-4.0 
as i think the AMX 13 DCA 40 sould go up a bit 
(but to be honest SPAA balance is a mess ... the wirbl is still 3.7 as an exemple) 

[FrizBeee 229]

+1 for 3.3/3.7 could be a really usefull spaa for france, thanks to his 40mn gun + 2x12.7 mg, with also a little bit of frontal armor

[Abaddon75 460]

+1 at 3.7 / 4.0 it really could helps France Ground tec

 

[FrizBeee 229]

Spoiler

model of the LVT 4 with a 40mn gun. It give us a great representation of the inside of the turret/modification done to the original LVT4

 

http://jardinsdepierre.blogspot.com/2018/02/un-alligator-redoutable.html

[CaID 8,992]

just to add the identification for the 40mm L/60 and L/70 version

 

the L/60 version have a single but larger hole on the gun sleeve (spring cylinder) that show a bit the spring inside,

the L/70 have two hole but they are smaller.

 

see for yourself, the LVT A 4 had indeed one single hole which mean it was an L/60 gun.

 

 

 (

[CaID 8,992]

On side question, what was the elevation of the LVT (A) 4 with the Bofors gun? so far i only saw the gun aiming low, was it able to raise high enough to be a SPAA? because the turret may not have the space to allow a good elevation, the gun is quit big and the turret is very small... the turret ring may block the way and keep in mind there is the crew as well.

 

keep in mind that the SPAA like the Nimrod of the Hungarian was first used as SPG before using it as SPAA. the 40mm gun was considered to be a good anti-tank gun against the tanks from the 30s like the T-26 or BT-5/7, they start to used it as SPAA when they found out the Russian was having T-34 and KV-1, against which the gun was ineffective. maybe the french LVT A 4 was used as SPG and not SPAA, the french had difficulty in Indochina because of the ambush, the LVT A 4 was one of the answer to the costly ambush during the convoy, the need of APC was obvious and they started to armed and armored the trucks, including the GMC CCKW 353 with the 40mm gun and light armored plates to defend the infantry carried.

[Xenecrite 899]

French armored units developed the use of amphibious tracked vehicles in Indochina: The amphibious C model of the M29 Weasel (armed either with Chaterrault M1924/29, Bren or Browning M1919 machine guns and with 57mm M18A1 recoilless guns),^[8] LVT-4s (equipped with two M2 and two M1919 machine guns, and sometimes equipped with 40mm Bofors guns^[9] or 57 mm recoilless guns)^[8] and LVT(A)-4 (with 75 mm howitzer) were used to great effect by 1er Régiment Etrangers de Cavalerie.^[10] In 1950, the French Army received a number of LVT-4s and LVT(A)-4s from the US to supplement M29Cs.^[11] In September 1951, the first French mixed unit (1er Groupement Autonome) was created, consisting of two squadrons of Weasels (33 each), three squadrons of LVT-4 (11 each) and one fire support platoon of 6 LVT(A)-4. Later a second group was created in Tonkin when more LVTs were received. Both these groups participated in Mekong and Red River delta operations and in landing operations on Vietnam shores.^[12] The 1er régiment de chasseurs à cheval [fr] also deployed a platoon of LVTs.^[13] LVTs were known as "alligators" in French armed forces.^[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked#CITEREFDunstan2019

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_4cm-56_mk12.php#Japan_Weapons_and_Mountings

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Xenecrite

[CaID 8,992]

1 hour ago, Xenecrite said:

French armored units developed the use of amphibious tracked vehicles in Indochina: The amphibious C model of the M29 Weasel (armed either with Chaterrault M1924/29, Bren or Browning M1919 machine guns and with 57mm M18A1 recoilless guns),^[8] LVT-4s (equipped with two M2 and two M1919 machine guns, and sometimes equipped with 40mm Bofors guns^[9] or 57 mm recoilless guns)^[8] and LVT(A)-4 (with 75 mm howitzer) were used to great effect by 1er Régiment Etrangers de Cavalerie.^[10] In 1950, the French Army received a number of LVT-4s and LVT(A)-4s from the US to supplement M29Cs.^[11] In September 1951, the first French mixed unit (1er Groupement Autonome) was created, consisting of two squadrons of Weasels (33 each), three squadrons of LVT-4 (11 each) and one fire support platoon of 6 LVT(A)-4. Later a second group was created in Tonkin when more LVTs were received. Both these groups participated in Mekong and Red River delta operations and in landing operations on Vietnam shores.^[12] The 1er régiment de chasseurs à cheval [fr] also deployed a platoon of LVTs.^[13] LVTs were known as "alligators" in French armed forces.^[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked#CITEREFDunstan2019

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_4cm-56_mk12.php#Japan_Weapons_and_Mountings

 

 

 

the 57mm recoiless M18 gun could be great addition as SPG, it do about 76mm of penetration with Heat shells according to Wikipedia. if the real penetration is anywhere close, it have his place in the game. any picture of that one? (in french service of course)

Edited October 1, 2020 by CaID

[Abaddon75 460]

On 01/10/2020 at 14:45, CaID said:

On side question, what was the elevation of the LVT (A) 4 with the Bofors gun? so far i only saw the gun aiming low, was it able to raise high enough to be a SPAA? because the turret may not have the space to allow a good elevation, the gun is quit big and the turret is very small... the turret ring may block the way and keep in mind there is the crew as well.

 

keep in mind that the SPAA like the Nimrod of the Hungarian was first used as SPG before using it as SPAA. the 40mm gun was considered to be a good anti-tank gun against the tanks from the 30s like the T-26 or BT-5/7, they start to used it as SPAA when they found out the Russian was having T-34 and KV-1, against which the gun was ineffective. maybe the french LVT A 4 was used as SPG and not SPAA, the french had difficulty in Indochina because of the ambush, the LVT A 4 was one of the answer to the costly ambush during the convoy, the need of APC was obvious and they started to armed and armored the trucks, including the GMC CCKW 353 with the 40mm gun and light armored plates to defend the infantry carried.

Good question, apparently of what I read on the internet 40mm on the mgmc truck was not very succesfull at shooting planes so after the war they used to support infantry especially in indochina where in the begining Vietmin didn't have a lot of aircraft to shoot at anyways. So if sombody could find info or images in that subject it would be nice. But apart from a practicle point of view it should not be problem since 2 of the spaa in Sweden tec tree don't have an actual spaa elevation

[FrizBeee 229]

On 01/10/2020 at 14:45, CaID said:

On side question, what was the elevation of the LVT (A) 4 with the Bofors gun? so far i only saw the gun aiming low, was it able to raise high enough to be a SPAA? because the turret may not have the space to allow a good elevation, the gun is quit big and the turret is very small... the turret ring may block the way and keep in mind there is the crew as well.

I don' t think the addition of a turret will block the elevation of the 40mn gun. It is basically just a add-on armor around the seats of the gunner/commander and the gun.

(a 3d reconstitution just to give a idea )

Spoiler

 

While the gun is being elevated, a part of the breech move a little bit but it shouldn't be stuck by the frontal armor of the turret, at least until we have a"decent" elevation angle for the 40mn gun 

I used the 40mn which is on the CCKW 353 AA to illustrate

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Frizare

[CokeSpray 7,272]

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.